The Iraq thread 3

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well gee golly gosh Ralph, ya think? I especially like his most recent inferrence that US Marines collectively are cowards

Are you by any chance refering to the part where the US commander was glorifying the Marines for fighting like tigers?

Was my question does "calling air-support after the first shots fired" a inferrence that US Marines collectively are cowards?That`s just a plain fact Tex.And I don`t think they are cowards,they are using any possibly means  their high tech support has to offer to maximise Resistance losses and minimise their own.There is nothing cowardly about that as there is nothing heroic.

Not you, sorry. Ralph quoted a few different people in that post and had multiple respondents, one of whom made an offhand reference to the ability of US Marines to maintain control of their bowels because close air support is being used. Apologies for any misunderstanding, I just got confused.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And once again, I am not trying to discredit you- your reliance on propaganda, broad-based innacurate statements, not to mention your reliance on warmed-over rhetoric do a good enough job of that; false accusations are not something I need, not that I'd ever use them (unlike you. You routinely falsely accuse the US Armed Forces of myriad crimes for which you have no proof. Who's off-base here?).

Enough of that now. You try to flame me ? Ok.

You´re yelling around that I do this and that but you fail to show me examples.

As long as you can´t stop it.

I have no problem reporting you to a mod. The path you take here is not wanted and not acceptable in the Iraq thread. It´s not about your personal likings, it´s about Iraq.

I did/do post sources for almost everything I post here as I know that you want it that way, so this

Quote[/b] ]You routinely falsely accuse the US Armed Forces of myriad crimes for which you have no proof.

is a plain lie.

Quote[/b] ]you didn't feel inclined to check it out in the first hyperlink.

So ? It looks to me like I did answer your questions. At least the ones that made sense. I didn´t think you´ll need some further input but well yes great you bring this up over 60 pages later...

Quote[/b] ]Personal feelings have very little to do with how and why I argue- in this case my opinion of you just makes it a little more fun, that's all. I'd still be doing it I thought you were a stand-up guy. As for lacking memory, making false statements, trying to discredit you, etc etc, please refer to the above. That's all.

Arguing needs some components to work. Knowledge is one of them. I can´t see where you argued away anything with knowledge. You just put it personal while I post FACTS almost every day since Iraq thread I. You try to make fun of things and persons who take part in this discussion. If you don´t have facts to contribute why don´t you just stay away from it ?

As I said, I won´t tolerate any name-calling or accusations from your side if they are wrong and made up. Keep that in mind. Flamebaiting and flaming are not tolerated on these forums, if you like it or not.

[denoir 0]

Hmmm, Ralph and Tex throwing around accusations of anti-Americanism. Akira and Schoeler making odd statements in defence of those shelling Fallujah...hmm

Is this a trend? Have you gotten fed up with all the criticism from people, directed at the US politics and military?

Well, before you go rushing off to the Bush camp (which Ralph seems to be doing in an alarming speed), remember this: those coming with the criticism were right before. As a matter of fact they have been consistently right about the post-war situation. No WMD. No terrorist ties. Insurgencies. US brutalities etc while you have consistently been wrong because you always assumed the best about US troops/politics.

I know it must suck with your country and soldiers being criticized all day long, but so far the criticism has been very well founded.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Or a flaw in your assumptions?

The invasion was over a year ago. That column of the question relates to the last 4 weeks.

That's indeed a huge 10-11 month gap.

Yes sure Avon but you have to check what percentage of coaltion troops in numbers is actually rebuilding the infrastructure and how they can operate within Iraq right now.

Their role is extremely limited as is their freedom to operate within Iraq.

I just don´t think that the 4 week section is representative or "correct" in terms of relaity across Iraq.

Just compare:

Gone without electricity for long periods of time:

78 percent (since invasion) 3 percent (last 4 weeks)

Had to stand in line to get gasoline:

74 percent (since invasion) 2 percent (last 4 weeks)

Been afraid to leave home for safety reasons:

57 percent (since invasion) 2 percent (last 4 weeks)

Been afraid to go outside your home at night for safety reasons:

74 percent (since invasion) 1 percent (last 4 weeks)

Gone without public sewage system:

40 percent (since invasion) 0 percent (last 4 weeks)

Ok let´s sum it up:

Electricity has been restored all over Iraq ?

Gasoline is available over Iraq ?

Iraq is a safe place now ?

Especially at night Iraq is extremely safe now ?

And all of the Iraqi´s have access to public sewage again ?

There is a huge difference between reality and the "last 4 weeks" poll.

It just doesn´t reflect reality or do you think different Avon ?

Do you really think everything got fixed overnight and we just didn´t notice ?

According to the "4 weeks" section everything is running smooth in Iraq. Civil life is up and running again without problems, only small percentages lack of minor things.

That simply does not reflect reality.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yes, was worth it 61%

No, was not worth it 28

Don’t know 9

Refused 2

Did they ask the killed civillians too?

"was it worth it? You are dead but free!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Is this a trend? Have you gotten fed up with all the criticism from people, directed at the US politics and military?

A country must be able to defend or at least accept such criticism if it has decided to attack and occupy a country in a unilateral act. THAT IS A MORAL OBLIGATION

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, was worth it 61%

No, was not worth it 28

Don’t know 9

Refused 2

Did they ask the killed civillians too?  

"was it worth it? You are dead but free!

No. They asked the living, who can relate to the death around them, and they said:

Quote[/b] ]64.2. Finally, since the invasion of Iraq last March, was there anyone in your immediate family – a father, brother or

son – who was…

Killed, or still missing in action? 1%

Wounded? 2

Taken prisoner, but later released? 1

Refused 10

No answer 86

I wonder what "no answer" means here. "No"? "I don't know"?

[theavonlady 2]

Yes sure Avon but you have to check what percentage of coaltion troops in numbers is actually rebuilding the infrastructure and how they can operate within Iraq right now.

Their role is extremely limited as is their freedom to operate within Iraq.

Until the recent spate of kidnappings, most of the news I heard stated that private contractors for many countries were involved in building and maintaining various infrastructure products.

Look, if you wish to believe that the folks at Gallup made up the numbers, you can believe whatever you want.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Look, if you wish to believe that the folks at Gallup made up the numbers, you can believe whatever you want.

Hey Avon stay cool. The numbers are just so off that I have a hard time believing that they actually represent the nowadays situation in Iraq. The differences between the numbers (I already posted comparison) is so great that it indicates some unbalance here.

Again if the numbers would be that way Iraq should be an up an running country with overall happy citizens now, right ?

I can´t understand why you can´t see that flaw.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Look, if you wish to believe that the folks at Gallup made up the numbers, you can believe whatever you want.

Hey Avon stay cool. The numbers are just so off that I have a hard time believing that they actually represent the nowadays situation in Iraq. The differences between the numbers (I already posted comparison) is so great that it indicates some unbalance here.

Again if the numbers would be that way Iraq should be an up an running country with overall happy citizens now, right ?

I can´t understand why you can´t see that flaw.

I suggest you contact Gallup and share their answer with us.

[Balschoiw 0]

Duh...

I´ll do it. Maybe they can explain.

[denoir 0]

No. They asked the living, who can relate to the death around them, and they said:

Quote[/b] ]64.2. Finally, since the invasion of Iraq last March, was there anyone in your immediate family – a father, brother or

son – who was…

Killed, or still missing in action? 1%

Wounded? 2

Taken prisoner, but later released? 1

Refused 10

No answer 86

1% While there is certainly a stastical sampling error, if this result is accurate it would be quite alarming. Assuming that the poll is accurate 1% of 30,000,000 = 300,000 dead.

(the sampling error was 2 points which means that the actual number lies within 0-3% which is a pretty irrelevant conclusion. The only actual conclusion that can be drawn is that no more than 3% of the population were killed)

That's assuming that they did not ask people that are related. If they did then the whole poll is extremely questionable.

Overall, I think it is interesting to see that the new poll is about as inconsistent as the BBC poll. The majority says that the war has done more harm than good and the majority says that it was worth it. I wonder what the explanation for that could be?

Another result which is quite interesting:

Quote[/b] ]Nearly half -- 47 percent -- said they believed attacks against U.S. forces in Iraq could not be justified, while 52 percent said those attacks could be justified some or all of the time.

IIRC in the BBC poll only 20% said that the attacks were justified.

Anyway, while interesting and our only real source of data, one should be careful with interpreting the results. Polls are very delicate to design. Slight changes in language can make a huge impact on the results. The way you order the questions also makes a big difference. We also have no way of telling if people are being honest or not. Living under Saddam must have made a fairly strong impression on the Iraqis. And under Saddam you did not express your opinion - you told what was expected of you. I would not be surprised if that was a factor.

[SgtBarnes 0]

Look, if you wish to believe that the folks at Gallup made up the numbers, you can believe whatever you want.

"I could prove God statistically."

George Gallup (1901 - 1984)

[theavonlady 2]

Another report, last week, from embedded reporter Ron Harris:

Quote[/b] ]Once hostile Iraqis turn hospitable

By Ron Harris

Of the Post-Dispatch

04/22/2004

HUSAYBAH, Iraq - As Marines commemorated the lives of five of their fallen comrades Thursday, some say that they may have turned a corner in their relationship with residents of the troublesome city of Husaybah.

Marines say formerly truculent residents have begun waving and greeting them cordially, just days after some of the fiercest fighting and after Marines conducted harsh door-to-door searches of homes.

Meanwhile, Marines say that Iraqi police and the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps are showing new signs of cooperation after being less than fully willing to help Marines bring order and stability to the region.

"It's a significant change in the right direction," said Capt. Dominique Neal, the new Lima Company commander. "I was surprised. I thought they'd be more fearful than anything. I think the amount of force that we displayed over the past few days definitely has changed their outlook."

Neal was recently promoted to replace Capt. Richard Gannon, the company commander who was slain along with four other Marines on Saturday during a daylong battle. Also killed were Cpl. Christopher Gibson, Lance Cpl. Ruben Valdez, Lance Cpl. Michael Smith and Lance Cpl. Gary F. VanLeuven.

Unlike Fallujah, where Marines have been locked in a standoff with Iraqi insurgents over the past few days, Marines in Husaybah have never lost control of the western city of 100,000, just 300 yards from the Syrian border.

After Saturday's fighting, in which 12 Marines were injured and scores of Iraqis were slain, Marines began a fierce, two-day search of homes in the area, usually kicking in the same doors upon which they previously would have knocked.

"One thing that I do know is that the Iraqi people respond to who they think is the strongest," said Neal, 29, of San Francisco. "They saw the velvet glove when we first came in, and then we took off the glove and showed them the iron fist."

Lima Company 1st Sgt. Daniel Calderon said that during his patrols, he noticed a different attitude from the populace.

"You could tell people were friendlier," said Calderon, of Jacksonville, Fla.

And Sgt. Wilson E. Champion, who had just come back from the most recent patrol, said he saw a similar shift in attitudes.

"The first few days, I think everybody was scared," said Champion, 23, of Jupiter, Fla. "But a lot of patrols are coming back and saying people are starting to be friendly again. Maybe it's because they know that we're not kidding."

Iraqi police were reportedly patrolling in areas in which they normally were not seen. Lima Company Staff Sgt. Matthew St. Pierre was so surprised that he stopped one police officer and asked to see his credentials.

"I couldn't believe it," said St. Pierre, of Vallejo, Calif. "Usually these guys are nowhere to be found. This guy had just graduated from our police academy. He was so proud that he ran home and got his diploma to show me."

When Marines found an unexploded roadside bomb during a patrol earlier this week, they set up a perimeter around the device, and to their surprise, members of the police and the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps set up an outer perimeter to help safely guide cars and pedestrians around the site.

Meanwhile, Iraqi police continued to pick up bodies of dead Iraqi insurgents who had been killed in fighting Saturday and Sunday. Many of them had come to the area from Fallujah and Ramadi. The police chief for the region of Al Qaim, an area about the size of Bermuda, said the bodies of a large number of the Iraqis killed in the fighting were still unclaimed Thursday. Apparently, they were not from the region and did not have relatives or friends in the area, he said.

Many residents, particularly women, children and families, have been fleeing the area recently, concerned about renewed fighting.

Marines, however, said they believe they had struck a blow to the heart of the local insurgency. They said they found dozens of weapons caches and even an Iraqi woman who was hiding Iraqi fighters in her home and providing a safe house for them to store weapons.

"We found at least one terrorist there, and we found AK-47s, and Russian machine guns," Neal said. "Two houses from a mosque, we found another cache, two rocket-propelled grenade launchers and multiple rocket-propelled grenade rounds."

While Marines are pleased with the new reception, they remain wary, Calderon said.

"Every time it calms down, the Marines get a little nervous," he said, "because things have a tendency to brew up again."

Reporter Ron Harris

E-mail: ronharris6852@hotmail.com

Phone: 314-340-8214

[Balschoiw 0]

I just contacted them , although it´s a bit hard as there is a 1000 characters limit. I will keep you updated.

[theavonlady 2]

U.S. Marines to End Siege of Fallujah

Quote[/b] ]32 minutes ago  

By JASON KEYSER, Associated Press Writer

FALLUJAH, Iraq - All Marine forces will end the siege of Fallujah, pulling back to allow a newly created, all-Iraqi security force to move into the city starting Friday under a new agreement, a Marine commander said.

The new force, known as the Fallujah Protective Army, will be made up of up to 1,100 Iraqi soldiers led by a former general from the militart of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said.

................................

[theavonlady 2]

I just contacted them , although it´s a bit hard as there is a 1000 characters limit. I will keep you updated.

Balschoiw - the BIS Forum's embedded reporter.

[denoir 0]

TV shows US troops abusing Iraqis [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

A US television station has broadcast pictures allegedly showing US soldiers abusing Iraqi inmates at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

CBS TV says it has "dozens" of pictures - taken by US troops - showing prisoners being subjected to a wide range of maltreatment.

Many of the pictures show American troops looking on in apparent approval. The Army announced last month that 17 soldiers had been suspended over the allegations of abuse of prisoners.

The group includes a brigadier general.

Six are facing court martial.

'Appalled'

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt told CBS the army was "appalled" by the behaviour of its soldiers. Gen Kimmitt, the deputy head of coalition forces in Iraq, said the suspected abusers "let their fellow soldiers down".

But, he said, the few suspects were "not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few," he urged Americans.

CBS says the pictures it obtained show a wide range of abuses, including:

[*] Prisoners with wires attached to their genitals

[*] A dog attacking a prisoner

[*] Prisoners being forced to simulate having sex with each other

[*] A detainee with an abusive word written on his body.

The prison where the abuses are alleged to have taken place was a notorious torture centre during the Saddam Hussein era. Bob Baer, a former CIA operative with extensive Iraq experience, told CBS: "If there [was] ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's Abu Ghraib [prison]."

The station spoke to one of the six soldiers charged,

Sergeant Chip Frederick - a reservist whose full-time job is as a prison officer in the US state of Virginia.

Sgt Frederick said he and his fellow reservists had never been told how to deal with prisoners, or what lines should not be crossed.

"We had no training whatsoever," he said.

"I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening," he said.

He said he never saw a copy of the Geneva Conventions - which govern the treatment of prisoners - until after he was charged. The Army investigation confirmed that reservists at Abu Ghraib had not been trained in Geneva Convention rules.

Chain of command

The general who supervised the prison for the US Army, Janis Karpinski, is among those facing charges. CBS said an Army investigation had concluded that her "lack of leadership and clear standards" led to problems in Abu Ghraib and three other prisons for which she was responsible.

The military police officers have been charged by the US Army with crimes ranging from assault and maltreatment to indecent acts against prisoners.

The soldiers in question reportedly were assisting interrogators from US intelligence agencies.

Last month, when the six military police officers were charged, an Army spokesman said the alleged crimes involved fewer than 20 prisoners and happened around November and December. The charges include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty, maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another.

This has been in the workings for a month or so, but I see now that CBS decided showing the pictures. What should be noted here that the military only acted once CBS announced that they had photos of it.

How many other cases do you suppose did not get caught on film and that the military is not bothering to investigate?

[theavonlady 2]

Look, if you wish to believe that the folks at Gallup made up the numbers, you can believe whatever you want.

"I could prove God statistically."

George Gallup (1901 - 1984)

Not any more!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Balschoiw - the BIS Forum's embedded reporter.

I just want to have more info on that as it seems that the numbers are way off.

Note:

I´m only talking about the "4 week" matter.

[theavonlady 2]

This has been in the workings for a month or so, but I see now that CBS decided showing the pictures. What should be noted here that the military only acted once CBS announced that they had photos of it.

Where does it say this?

When and where was this reported a month ago?

Quote[/b] ]How many other cases do you suppose did not get caught on film and that the military is not bothering to investigate?

Since this case involves a brigadier general in charge overall, how do you know that anyone else was aware of this beforehand?

You're implying that the military ignored evidence during a certain time interval and only pursued charges after the facts became public. What is that based on?

[Balschoiw 0]

Detasils on the retreat from Falluja. Look like they don´t leave on their own decision:

Quote[/b] ]The Fallujah violence, aired live on television screens with images of explosions and burning buildings, increased pressure on the United States to prevent a revival of the heavy bloodshed in Fallujah during the first two weeks of April.

"Violent military action by an occupying power against inhabitants of an occupied country will only make matters worse," U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) warned. "It's definitely time, time now for those who prefer restraint and dialogue to make their voices heard."

Mohsen Abdul-Hamid, a member of the U.S.-appointed Governing Council also called on the United States to stop attacks in Fallujah and said if the United States refused, his Iraqi Islamic Party would consider withdrawing from the council.

"We call on the American troops that are bombing Fallujah to stop immediately and withdraw outside of the city," Abdul-Hamid told al-Jazeera television. "Otherwise, we'll be forced ... to consider the subject of withdrawal."

On Wednesday, U.S. warplanes dropped 500-pound, laser-guided bombs on guerrilla targets as battles broke out in several parts of the city, including areas that had been relatively quiet.

One resident, Hassan al-Maadhidi, returned to Fallujah after fleeing earlier fighting and was distraught Thursday when he saw the destruction from fighting over the past three days.

"I returned yesterday to see houses destroyed, streets empty and shops bombarded," al-Maadhidi said, adding that he may flee the city again

Another incident:

Quote[/b] ]Marine Capt. James Edge said a car screeched into the razorwire near the main Marine checkpoint into Fallujah and gunmen inside opened fire with assault rifles on the Americans. U.S. troops returned fire with a Humvee-mounted heavy machine gun, killing at least three men in the car, Edge said. A fourth person was wounded but it was not clear if he was in the car or a bystander, Edge said.

An AP reporter, however, saw U.S. soldiers opened fire on a pickup truck at the checkpoint, killing a seven-member family that was trying to flee the city. It was not clear if the accounts referred to separate incidents.

Quote[/b] ]What is that based on?

Experience with US military media tactics in the Iraq war overall Only confess what can be proven to you, in simple words.

[denoir 0]

When and where was this reported a month ago?

Among many places it was posted in this very thread.

Quote[/b] ]Since this case involves a brigadier general in charge overall, how do you know that anyone else was aware of this beforehand?

It's a huge prison with quite a lot of soldiers. If a brigadier general was involved, then we're talking about the very tops of the chain of command.

Quote[/b] ]You're implying that the military ignored evidence during a certain time interval and only pursued charges after the facts became public. What is that based on?

Again the very fact that a brigadier general was involved means that the the whole chain of command underneath him ignored it. And trust me, a brigadier general is in command of more than 17 people.

Second, I have a very direct personal experience with this. In Pristina I witnessed two US soldiers (low rank, PFC IIRC) beat the living crap out of an elderly woman. She was carrying a carton of cigarettes and the soldiers wanted part of them. When she refused one of them hit her in the face with the butt of his rifle and when she fell down the other soldier kicked her in the stomach. I intervened and demanded their names and units. They refused (which btw is a court-martial offence in itself) but gave me the name of their CO, who I directly contacted. He, a major, came directly and after I told him what had happened (and he could see it for himself as the ambulance was just taking away the woman when he arrived), he started yelling at me. He asked wtf I was doing bothering his soldiers and made all forms of nasty threats in the case I would report it. He concluded by saying that he would testify that the soldiers were with him all day.

I then went to the legal office at HQ and explained the situation and how I had several witnesses. They laughed and said that unless it was murder and I had it on tape that the case was a no-go. They said that the Americans would just stonewall any legal inquries from KFOR and that it overall was a lost cause.

I later heard very similar stories from other people.

[Schoeler 0]

Detasils on the retreat from Falluja. Look like they don´t leave on their own decision:

Quote[/b] ]The Fallujah violence, aired live on television screens with images of explosions and burning buildings, increased pressure on the United States to prevent a revival of the heavy bloodshed in Fallujah during the first two weeks of April.

"Violent military action by an occupying power against inhabitants of an occupied country will only make matters worse," U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) warned. "It's definitely time, time now for those who prefer restraint and dialogue to make their voices heard."

Mohsen Abdul-Hamid, a member of the U.S.-appointed Governing Council also called on the United States to stop attacks in Fallujah and said if the United States refused, his Iraqi Islamic Party would consider withdrawing from the council.

"We call on the American troops that are bombing Fallujah to stop immediately and withdraw outside of the city," Abdul-Hamid told al-Jazeera television. "Otherwise, we'll be forced ... to consider the subject of withdrawal."

On Wednesday, U.S. warplanes dropped 500-pound, laser-guided bombs on guerrilla targets as battles broke out in several parts of the city, including areas that had been relatively quiet.

One resident, Hassan al-Maadhidi, returned to Fallujah after fleeing earlier fighting and was distraught Thursday when he saw the destruction from fighting over the past three days.

"I returned yesterday to see houses destroyed, streets empty and shops bombarded," al-Maadhidi said, adding that he may flee the city again

Another incident:

Quote[/b] ]Marine Capt. James Edge said a car screeched into the razorwire near the main Marine checkpoint into Fallujah and gunmen inside opened fire with assault rifles on the Americans. U.S. troops returned fire with a Humvee-mounted heavy machine gun, killing at least three men in the car, Edge said. A fourth person was wounded but it was not clear if he was in the car or a bystander, Edge said.

An AP reporter, however, saw U.S. soldiers opened fire on a pickup truck at the checkpoint, killing a seven-member family that was trying to flee the city. It was not clear if the accounts referred to separate incidents.

Quote[/b] ]What is that based on?

Experience with US military media tactics in the Iraq war overall   Only confess what can be proven to you, in simple words.

You have got to be fucking joking right?

First you say the U.S. is overdoing it and should pull back, then when they do, you call it a retreat? How exactly are you ever satisfied? Maybe we should have just gone in an killed them all then? I'm sure that would have racked up points earning Iraqi hearts and minds.

Do you really in any rational state of mind even imagine that a handful of beleagured insurgents defeated the United States Marine Corps? If you do, cut back on the medication, its having an undesired effect on you.

[denoir 0]

It is a retreat! What else should he call it? And yes a bunch of insurgents defeated the United States Marine Corps. They tried to take Fallujah, they failed and now they're pulling back.

Is it good that they attacked? No. Is it good that they retreat? No.

Is it so difficult to imagine that something can be bad no matter what you do? They put themselves in that shitty situation by invading Iraq and now they are taking the consequences which mostly are negative. Are you so hollywood indoctrinated that you think that there is a happy ending for everything - that there even is an adequate solution for everything? That the people you consider being the 'good guys' must always win?