The Iraq thread 3

[Bernadotte 0]

Do you think we can get an objective poll?  Seriously, I doubt it, it's a war zone, people worry about their lives, so I am doubtful you can get an honest result.

I wouldn't be surprized to learn that the poll result was fiddled with by the republicans  

I don't disagree.  However, the reason I ask if Iraqi popular opinion has been surveyed is that everyone keeps calling this a war.  It might be considered a war if indeed the coalition is engaged against the wishes of the majority.   But I wouldn't call it a war if they truly have the majority of Iraqis on their side.

Perhaps the most disgusting part is that most of the western world doesn't seem to care what the Iraqis think.  Neo-colonial attitudes prevail like that of Veovis who is convinced that the whole country would go to shit without America.  Nevermind that functional societies have flourished in that region for more than 9,000 years without America's help.

[ralphwiggum 6]

If I would link the source you`ll ban me for sure this time  

The link has some pictures that show the brutallity of this war so I can`t post it on this forum

in that case, just type in the name of news agency. people can find on their own if they want to see that.

edit: say the name of the company is CNN. then not like cnn.com or any other variants, but just plain state that CNN is reporting.

[denoir 0]

What about this "mosque incident":

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....cid=716

Heh, that's hardly the same thing. It's a difference if you wreck your car yourself or if your neighbour wrecks your car.

Anyway, the mosque incident is bad from a symbolic point of view. The rebels know that very well and tactically use holy sites for cover. And yes, it sucks to be a US soldier in Iraq. If you fire upon a mosque you create more enemies. If you don't you could get killed by those firing at you from the mosque. Life's a bitch, but that is what happens when you invade a country without being prepared to take the consequences of it. According to pre-war propaganda the Iraqis were supposed to be meeting their "liberators" with flowers. Instead they are met with RPG:s. If anything, this should make you reflect upon the pre-war Iraq scenario that was painted by TBA and the reality. No dangerous WMD and a people that do not seem to be overly thrilled by their "liberation". Not quite what Bush promised, is it?

As for the mosque - billybob, you can't have it both ways. Either it is ok to use a mosque for cover like the rebels and the marines apparently did, or it is not. You can't have it that it's just ok for the marines.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for the mosque - billybob, you can't have it both ways. Either it is ok to use a mosque for cover like the rebels and the marines apparently did, or it is not. You can't have it that it's just ok for the marines.

The rebels were using al-Muadidi (other incident) mosque as cover not marines. A marine fired into the mosque compound at gunmen after climbing the minaret.

[denoir 0]

Neo-colonial attitudes prevail like that of Veovis who is convinced that the whole country would go to shit without America.  Nevermind that functional societies have flourished in that region for more than 9,000 years without America's help.

Iraq would most likely go to shit. There is a power-vacuum after Saddam and there are quite a few people that aspire to fill it. There are a lot of weapons in the country and obviously people that are willing to die for their cause.

The only positive signs I've seen so far is ironically in relation to this rebellion where various Sunni and Shia leaders have expressed mutual support. But in the end it's not about the tolerance of the people. That would be no problem. The issue is a number of factions who would make a grab for power should the opportunity present itself. Right now the coallition is the strong man - being a surrogate Saddam until a proper system for power sharing is introduced. Remove them and I'm fairly certain that Iraq would completely descend into chaos. One should also not dismiss external pressure. You can bet that if the US leaves Iraq, they'll still be funding and arming the faction of their liking. As will Iran and other countries in the region.

[quicksand 0]

It`s Al-Jazeera.And before people start saying "arab crap", they are the only news agency that have a corespondant in Fallujah,and on CNN yesterday their reporter talked with Al-Jazeera to find out more info so I think they are a credible source.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for the mosque - billybob, you can't have it both ways. Either it is ok to use a mosque for cover like the rebels and the marines apparently did, or it is not. You can't have it that it's just ok for the marines.

The rebels were using al-Muadidi (other incident) mosque as cover not marines. A marine fired into the mosque compound at gunmen after climbing the minaret.

Since the marine climbed the minaret of the mosque and shot at people from there, he was using the mosque for combat. Shooting at people from the minaret or from inside the mosque makes no difference. The minaret is part of the mosque.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]It`s Al-Jazeera.And before people start saying "arab crap", they are the only news agency that have a corespondant in Fallujah,and on CNN yesterday their reporter talked with Al-Jazeera to find out more info so I think they are a credible source.

AP reporter is also in Fallujah with Marines.

Here is why the Marines went for the Abdul-Aziz al-Samarrai mosque:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2753046

Quote[/b] ]

Fighting began when a rocket-propelled grenade fired from the mosque hit a U.S. military vehicle, wounding five Marines, Col Byrne said. A large U.S. force then converged on the mosque.

[ralphwiggum 6]

It`s Al-Jazeera.And before people start saying "arab crap", they are the only news agency that have a corespondant in Fallujah,and on CNN yesterday their reporter talked with Al-Jazeera to find out more info so I think they are a credible source.

sorry, but that agency has only slightly more credibility than some wacko right wing internet news sites i won't mention since it will cause enough brain damage

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Since the marine climbed the minaret of the mosque and shot at people from there, he was using the mosque for combat. Shooting at people from the minaret or from inside the mosque makes no difference. The minaret is part of the mosque.

Gunmen were inside the mosque compound.

[WhoCares 0]

Gunmen were inside the mosque compound.

But this still does not allow the Marines to use another building protected by the Geneva Convention for combat purposes.

However, this is about a different mosque, not the one of the bombing incident. And so far I haven't seen a report about insurgents in this mosque - he could have shot very well on surrounding areas from up there.

Quote[/b] ]During fighting elsewhere in Fallujah, U.S. forces seized a second place of prayer, the al-Muadidi mosque. A Marine climbed the minaret and fired on guerrilla gunmen, witnesses said. Insurgents fired back, hitting the minaret with rocket-propelled grenades and causing it to partially collapse, the AP reporter said.

Anyway, this is to be taken with a grain of salt - you can call it hearsay ('witnesses said').

[quicksand 0]

It`s Al-Jazeera.And before people start saying "arab crap", they are the only news agency that have a corespondant in Fallujah,and on CNN yesterday their reporter talked with Al-Jazeera to find out more info so I think they are a credible source.

sorry, but that agency has only slightly more credibility than some wacko right wing internet news sites i won't mention since it will cause enough brain damage

Sorry,Ralph but I definitely don`t agree with you.

You see as I said before they have a corespondant that isn`t there with the Marines,so he can report everything that`s happening there.

If you don`t belive their reports,that`s fine,call them wacko arabs,but just watch their pictures if you think you are prepared to see the gruesome reallity of war.

And on the other side we have CNN.What makes you belive they are so credible when they don`t have any corespondant in Fallujah and as I said before they are reporting what US officials are telling them?

[ralphwiggum 6]

a couple of things to notice is that, under disguise of no-limit, all truth photos is other means of subjectiveness coming up. showing bodies of Iraqis and immediately declaring them civilians killed would be wrong.

As someone mentioned, AP also has correspondence there, not just Al Zazeera. If my memory serves me correctly they had some nice opinions about Zionist conspiracy.

What makes CNN more reliable than AZ? At least CNN tends to keep things more congruent with what happened than interpretation of what happened.

kinda funny (again) that CNN is being called "right wing" from one side and "left wing" from the other

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ] couple of things to notice is that, under disguise of no-limit, all truth photos is other means of subjectiveness coming up. showing bodies of Iraqis and immediately declaring them civilians killed would be wrong.

I am not sure that 3 years old boys were stuffed with grenades and had AK`s in their hands but have it your way

In war there is no pure truth,only interpretations of events. I don`t take anything I read for granted that`s why I like to keep in touch with all sides , as I think that between what US officials are saying and what Al-Jazeera reports the truth is somwhere in the middle.

[Badgerboy 0]

Been reports on BBC news, that militia in Najaf have taken coalition hostages, including one American. Looks like they are demanding the release of one of their number arrested previously.

Can't find any links yet, so it hasn't been confirmed.

[Bernadotte 0]

Iraq would most likely go to shit. There is a power-vacuum after Saddam and there are quite a few people that aspire to fill it.

Who?  Many people have conveniently made this claim, but I've not seen any names mentioned.

In fact, I've read reports that would indicate the contrary.  Some even stated that the Shia leaders recognised the Sunni's vast administrative experience and would not challenge their disproportionate representation in a new government - at least in the interim.  (Btw, Bremer wanted no part of it.)

Of course, utterly abandoning the Iraqis would have left it quite vulnerable to competing foreign interests, not least of all Turkey.  Nobody has recommended that. But going to the opposite extreme and likening them to some sort of helpless savages is simply a lot of pro-occupation propaganda.

Meanwhile, I'd like to ask you again about something you posted a few days ago:

Had the occupation been a success story Bush would have gotten a mandate to move on to the next country and enforce the necon vision of pax Americana.

Really?  Where?  And from whom would Bush have received such a mandate?

[Tydium 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Been reports on BBC news, that militia in Najaf have taken coalition hostages, including one American. Looks like they are demanding the release of one of their number arrested previously.

Can't find any links yet, so it hasn't been confirmed.

Here you go.

Quote[/b] ]

An Iraqi militia group says it is holding Spanish hostages and possibly an American, reports say.

The Spanish military has "categorically" denied the claims made by militiamen loyal to anti-American cleric Muqtada al Sadr.

The militia is demanding the release of its Najaf-based leader Mustafa Yaacubi who was arrested by coalition forces on Saturday.

"We hold coalition hostages, most of them Spaniards, and possibly a US soldier, whom we want to swap against Mustafa al-Yaacubi", said Amar al-Husseini, a spokesman for Sadr in Baghdad's Shia stronghold of Sadr City.

The US-led coalition was not immediately available for comment.

Yaacubi, like al Sadr, is implicated in the murder of a rival pro-American cleric last year.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I am not sure that 3 years old boys were stuffed with grenades and had AK`s in their hands but have it your way

and i'm sure 3 yr old kid in Texas is filled with Zionistic ideas.

Quote[/b] ]In war there is no pure truth,only interpretations of events. I don`t take anything I read for granted that`s why I like to keep in touch with all sides , as I think that between what US officials are saying and what Al-Jazeera reports the truth is somwhere in the middle.

I'd say mostly somewhere closer to other respectable media outlets are saying.

[Balschoiw 0]

Fresh Fighting Hits Shi'ite Shrine City in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Polish and Bulgarian troops battled Shi'ite militiamen in the Iraqi shrine city of Kerbala on Thursday as U.S.-led forces struggled to quell the worst violence since Saddam Hussein 's fall a year ago.

...

A gun battle pitting Polish and Bulgarian soldiers against Shi'ite Mehdi Army fighters erupted around 11 p.m. on Wednesday in the Shi'ite holy city of Kerbala and lasted through the night, a Polish military spokesman said.

"There was shooting all night," said Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Strzelecki. He had no immediate word on casualties.

A health official, Mehdi al-Hasnawi, said four Iraqis had been killed and 16 wounded in the fighting. Witnesses said the Mehdi Army was in control of the city and its shrines.

Hundreds of thousands of Shi'ite pilgrims, including many from Iran, have converged on Kerbala for Arbain, a major religious occasion that reaches its climax next weekend.

Potential for big trouble.

[Blake 0]

It seems that it is again so much easier to complain, revolt, riot and get carried away by fever of fanaticism than actually do something concrete to make things better...

[MLF 0]

Gunmen were inside the mosque compound.

But this still does not allow the Marines to use another building protected by the Geneva Convention for combat purposes.

However, this is about a different mosque, not the one of the bombing incident. And so far I haven't seen a report about insurgents in this mosque - he could have shot very well on surrounding areas from up there.

Quote[/b] ]During fighting elsewhere in Fallujah, U.S. forces seized a second place of prayer, the al-Muadidi mosque. A Marine climbed the minaret and fired on guerrilla gunmen, witnesses said. Insurgents fired back, hitting the minaret with rocket-propelled grenades and causing it to partially collapse, the AP reporter said.

Anyway, this is to be taken with a grain of salt - you can call it hearsay ('witnesses said').

Doesn't the fact that the militants used the Holy site as a firing position nullyfy its status as a non go area in te geneva convention.

[denoir 0]

Meanwhile, I'd like to ask you again about something you posted a few days ago:

Had the occupation been a success story Bush would have gotten a mandate to move on to the next country and enforce the necon vision of pax Americana.

Really?  Where?  And from whom would Bush have received such a mandate?

Sorry. Congress for one thing. The American people another. First of all, before the elections, you can rule it out. Second should he do something like this against a majority (which it would be now after the Iraq thing) there would not be an elected neocon for at least the next 8 years. Plus possible impeachment etc..

Quote[/b] ]Who? Many people have conveniently made this claim, but I've not seen any names mentioned.

Where have you been the last few days? What do you think Sadr wants?

[MLF 0]

If anyone has been watching CNN, BBC News 24, or Sky News, just seen 3 marines climbing out of an Abrams, the Bustle on the Abrams was on fire, one marine looked seriously injured, he was being treated by a Navy Corpsman, he was unmoving, had to be dragged out of the commanders hatch, the other 2 walked away with what looked like burns to the arms, the guy who was being treated looked in a very bad way. the Abrams did not look like it was in combat because there was an unarmed hummer in the background, looked like it had been driven out of combat, guessing an RPG must have it it, but the wounds look like the ammo was hit, dunno how that would happen.

[Apollo 0]

Must have been a pretty stong Rpg to hurt that Abrams that way ,r maybe the Abrams was shot in its weak ass?

I was pretty surprized to see the Shia Sadr declaring war on the coalition.To think that as it is the Shia would get most power in Iraq when America leaves ,they already have a majority of Shia in the new Iraqi goverment ,including some important Shia religious leaders like ayatollah Sistani ,this campaign of Sadr against the coalition will probably mostly hurt those Shia politicians.

That said ,if Sadr manages to gain popular support for his cause among the Shia then he will become the most important factor in Iraqi politics and when the coalition leaves he will probably aim for toppling the new Iraqi regime.

[MLF 0]

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Coalition forces conducted a "precision raid" in Baghdad's mainly Shia neighborhood of Sadr City early Thursday, destroying a building used as a base of operations for the Mehdi Army, a U.S. military source said.

A U.S. Marine carries a wounded comrade after their tank was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade in Fallujah.

There were no coalition casualties and the source said insurgent casualties were "minimal."

U.S. forces have engaged in fierce firefights in Sadr City over the last several days with the Mehdi Army, the militia of firebrand Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who is wanted for the killing of a rival last year.

Coalition troops have been battling Shiite militias and Sunni insurgents separately in several key Iraq cities.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Wednesday the coalition faced "a test of will" in Iraq and warned the future of the Iraqi people was at stake.

Battles included firefights in Fallujah and Ramadi west of Baghdad in the Sunni Triangle, the Shiite stronghold of Najaf in the south, and in the capital itself. U.S., Polish and Ukrainian forces were among the coalition troops engaged across the country.

Fighting was particularly heavy in Fallujah, where insurgents holed up inside a mosque complex attacked U.S. Marines with rocket-propelled grenades and small-arms fire, U.S. Central Command reported.

With Marine forces pinned down, the military dropped two precision-guided 500-pound bombs on the walls of the mosque compound and fired a Hellfire missile.

A Marine source said that "we specifically did not target the mosque." (Full story)

Marines later recovered a mortar from inside the compound, according to Central Command.

The insurgent strategy was described by Tony Perry of the Los Angeles Times, one of the few journalists witnessing the attacks in Fallujah.

"There were platoon-sized groups. They brought in buses, blocked off streets, hit the Marines with counterfire," Perry said. The insurgents also "had anti-aircraft facilities that were shooting at the helicopters."

Other battlegrounds

The coalition said at least 48 suspected insurgent combatants were killed Wednesday in fighting in Fallujah and nearby Ramadi, where 12 Marines were killed Tuesday in a large-scale attack by Iraqi insurgents.

One U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday in a rocket-propelled grenade attack on an Iraqi police station in Baghdad, according to U.S. military sources.

The military reported a 1st Infantry Division soldier was killed and another wounded Tuesday night near Balad, north of Baghdad.

There have been 637 U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war, 447 in hostile action. Of those, 498 were killed after May 1, 328 of them in hostile action.

The U.S. military said its troops remained "in firm control" of Ramadi. One general said some Syrian fighters were captured there.

In Baghdad, U.S. Army tanks were deployed to protect police stations in Sadr City, where indicted cleric al-Sadr enjoys widespread support and has a 3,000-person strong militia, said Col. Robert Abrams.

Sadr City, named for the cleric's father, who was killed by the Saddam Hussein regime, is an impoverished district of 2 million people, more than half the capital's prewar population of 3.8 million. It was once known as Saddam City.

Farther south in Najaf, al-Sadr's outlawed militia, the Mehdi Army, was in control -- although coalition forces had a "strong presence" on the city's outskirts, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad.

In another holy city, Karbala, a multinational forces spokesman said there was fighting between Polish forces and Mehdi Army members.

Sayid Hazem al-Araji, head of al-Sadr's office in Baghdad, said an employee of the cleric's office in Karbala, Sayid Murtadha, was killed Wednesday by foreign troops.

In Kut, in southern Iraq, Coalition Provisional Authority employees abandoned their offices. The Wasit provincial office, where the coalition was based, was taken over by Mehdi Army, sources said. The staff was safely elsewhere in Kut.

Ukrainian troops withdrew from the city because of fierce fighting and went back to their posts outside the town, a Ukraine Defense Ministry official said.

Rumsfeld: Troops' return home may be delayed

"What we're witnessing today in Iraq is a power play between those who favor terrorism and a return to oppression, and those determined to have freedom and self-government," Rumsfeld told reporters at a Pentagon news conference.

"We are facing a test of will, and we will meet that test," he said. "This is an important moment in Iraq's history. The future of the Iraqi people is certainly at stake.

"So the stakes are high. They're high for Iraq, they're high for the region, and indeed they're high for the world."

Members of the Iraqi Special Forces walk on the outskirts of Fallujah as they prepare to go on a patrol with U.S. Marines.

Rumsfeld vowed that the United States, coalition and Iraqi security forces were "taking the battle to the terrorists."

U.S. Marines carrying photographs were "systematically" going through Fallujah and had captured at least nine militants wanted in last week's killing and mutilation of U.S. civilian security contractors, Rumsfeld said.

Marine 1st Lt. Wade Zirkle said the militants "fight like cowards and fight amongst families," whom the coalition forces try to protect as they target the terrorists.

Rumsfeld also said more U.S. troops were in Iraq now because of a "major troop rotation" under way. He said some troops scheduled to leave may have to stay longer.

"We will likely be managing the pace of the redeployments to allow those seasoned troops with experience and relationships with the local populations to see the current situation through," he said.

Religion and warfare

The resistance posed by the Mehdi Army came after al-Sadr's hostile anti-U.S. sermon during Friday's prayers and the shutdown of a Baghdad paper, run by his supporters, that the coalition said incited violence.

Al-Sadr has been indicted by an Iraqi judge for the killing of a rival cleric. Rumsfeld expressed admiration for the judge, who at risk to his own safety has been out in public explaining why he issued the indictments.

Supporters of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr demonstrate in Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood Wednesday.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said U.S. troops were fighting a variety of groups in Fallujah and Ramadi.

He said "former regime elements and Baathists, Iraqi extremists, extremists from outside, the Zarqawi network as well" were attacking coalition forces.

Fugitive terrorism suspect Abu Musab al-Zarqawi claimed responsibility Tuesday for a wave of attacks targeting U.S. and other coalition forces since Americans took control of Baghdad almost a year ago. (Full story)

The upsurge in fighting had been predicted by the U.S. military as the June 30 handover date nears.

But Rumsfeld described the number of anti-coalition fighters as "relatively small."

"You have a mixture of a small number of terrorists, a small number of militias, coupled with some demonstrations and some lawlessness," he said.

Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most senior Shiite cleric in Iraq, on Wednesday condemned recent coalition attacks and called for a "peaceful road out in order to avoid any further chaos and bloodshed."

The violence came a few days before a major Shiite festival in Iraq.

"We are working closely with Iraqi security forces to mitigate the risks in these cities during the pilgrimage. We caution all pilgrims that the holy cities are potentially dangerous places during this period," Rumsfeld said.

During the Shiite festival of Ashura in March, more than 180 people were killed in Baghdad and Karbala by suicide bombers.

CNN's Jane Arraf, Jim Clancy, Barbara Starr, Kevin Flower, Walter Rodgers, Jamie McIntyre, Wolf Blitzer and Kianne Sadeq contributed to this report.