The Iraq thread 3

[Scorpio 0]

Sheesh...the situation is getting pretty bad.

Airline flights are closed too.

BTW, I just had to laugh - "Mehdi's Army"?! LOL.

The things they come up with these days...

[bucket man 2]

How is it bossible that they captured Najaf? What is the coalition doing? Well actually Denoir put it very well: they are base camping.

Didnt they try the same thing in Vietnam. Just sit in your bunker, sent out a patrol occasionally and let locals handle their broblems. We all know that didnt work very well.

They didnt really have no postwar plans for Iraq whatsoever didnt they? Ooh, silly me they had postwar plans. Plans on how to get oil flowing as fast as bossible. Postwar plans indeed.

[Koolkid101 0]

Didn't rebuilding Berlin, Paris, Tokyo, Europe cost this much time and even more money which some countries still owe us... And plus if this was a war about oil why didn't Us Officals do the things some french and russians did with the Oil for Food Program and didn't people say that Vietnam was a war for offshore oil?

[Placebo 29]

Is this new?

Quote[/b] ]130 SOLDIERS KILLED IN IRAQ - REPORTS

A Pentagon source has said up to 130 US troops have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq.

The large scale battle, described as "intense", has taken place in the town of Ar Ramadi, 20 miles west of Fallujah.

Sky News' David Chater said: "None of this is official yet - none of it is confirmed."

But he added: "It sounds very much like this is being carried out by men who are militarily trained."

Chater described the attack as "highly sophisticated".

More follows...

Last Updated: 21:28 UK, Tuesday April 06, 2004

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1130577,00.html

[denoir 0]

Didn't rebuilding Berlin, Paris, Tokyo, Europe cost this much time and even more money which some countries still owe us...

Sure, it took time and money. But it was the rebuilding. Iraq is far from coming to that phase. People did not kill US soldiers in Europe after the end of the war. There wern't massive civilian revolts etc Even if Europe was more destroyed after WW2 the post-war situation was not unstable and dangerous. Iraq is not another Vietnam, it's another Afghanistan. USA is facing the same thing in Iraq today what the Soviets faced in Afghanistan in the 80's. And we know what impact that had (Osama bin Laden, to mention one).

The rebuilding of western Europe was done through the Marshall help, which was not a loan, but a direct gift. It was introduced out of the fear that the Soviets would instead step in and that entire Europe would be communist. It turns out that they were right. The countries that recieved the Marshall help became pro-US while those that the Soviets helped rebuild became pro-Soviet. For whatever reason it was given, people in Europe have not forgotten the help that America gave both during and after the war. Just like I'm sure America has not forgotten the help France gave it during its revolutionary war

Quote[/b] ]And plus if this was a war about oil why didn't Us Officals do the things some french and russians did with the Oil for Food

And what exactly would those things be?

Quote[/b] ]Program and didn't people say that Vietnam was a war for offshore oil?

Um..no? Vietnam was a polticial war with the goal of stopping the spread of communism in south-east Asia.

[denoir 0]

Is this new?

Quote[/b] ]130 SOLDIERS KILLED IN IRAQ - REPORTS

.....

Yes, this is very new. I don't see anything on BBC or CNN yet. If it's true, then it's an unprecedented disaster.

Edit: CNN:

Quote[/b] ]BREAKING NEWS Iraqi insurgents mount a large-scale attack against U.S. Marines, with "about a dozen" Americans feared killed, initial Pentagon reports say. Details soon

[Placebo 29]

Found it of all places in a football forum, my reply was a simple "fuck", if true there's not much else one can say

[denoir 0]

Found it of all places in a football forum, my reply was a simple "fuck", if true there's not much else one can say

Indeed Possibly you could repeat it a few times over when the number of Iraqis killed comes in. Usually it's at least a factor ten..

[bn880 5]

Cripes.

[norsu 180]

Could be a typo as all other reports I've read give the number 12 .

[Placebo 29]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13047720,00.html

US attempts to quell violence in Baghad

Quote[/b] ]HEAVY FIGHTING IN IRAQ

A large number of soldiers have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq, according to unconfirmed reports.

Some reports have put the toll as high as 130 but others have put the death toll at 12 with 20 wounded.

The large scale battle, described as "intense", has taken place in the town of Ar Ramadi, 20 miles west of Fallujah.

Sky News' David Chater said: "None of this is official yet - none of it is confirmed."

But he added: "It sounds very much like this is being carried out by men who are militarily trained."

Chater described the attack as "highly sophisticated".

Meanwhile, Tony Blair has announced he will fly to Washington to meet George Bush on April 16 to discuss the worsening situation.

Iraqi radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr has vowed to continue a Shi'ite uprising until the forces answer his demands.

It has forced Mr Bush to consider sending more troops in an attempt to deal with, what is in effect, an attempted coup.

The cleric's aide said the Coalition must withdraw troops from populated areas, such as Baghdad and Fallujah, and release prisoners.

The demands are in addition to the original call for al-Sadr's extremist newspaper to be reopened after the coalition shut it down.

Al-Sadr's militiamen have opened up three fronts across the country, targeting coalition forces and causing casualties in American, British and Italian held areas.

Sky's David Chater in Baghdad said: "They (the militias) have shown their military might and their demands are growing.

 

 

"

Al-Sadr is believed to have gone underground in an attempt to keep his armed opposition going.

Dozens have died in the past two days in an apparent grab at the Shi'ite leadership by the young cleric.

Latest figures reveal the death of four US troops in an operation west of Baghdad in the province of al-Anbar on Monday.

At least 39 Iraqis have been killed and 126 others wounded in clashes between al-Sadr's militiamen and US soldiers in the past 48 hours, a hospital chief said.

An additional 12 Iraqis died and 27 others were wounded in separate fighting with British troops in the southeastern city of Amara during the same period.

While 500 Italian soldiers, serving in the southern town of Nassiriya, were caught in an hour-long gun battle today which left 15 civilians dead. Eleven of the Italians were injured, but not seriously.

Spanish troops tried to quell a revolt in their area, but were pushed back and they returned to their barracks.

But the British have agreed a deal with al-Sadr's militiamen to re-take the governor's office in Basra, one of the incidents which sparked the current crisis.

The situation is not so encouraging in the north of the country where hundreds of US and Iraqi troops have surrounded the city of Fallujah where earlier a mob killed four Americans and mutilated their bodies.

US Apache helicopters sprayed fire on the private army of the radical cleric during fierce battles in a Baghdad district.

Last Updated: 21:58 UK, Tuesday April 06, 2004

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

would you agree if I raise my CIA bar up to level 5? CIA = Current Iraq Alert?

[bn880 5]

5? I was thinking 4, but have it your way.

Edit: 4...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]would you agree if I raise my CIA bar up to level 5? CIA = Current Iraq Alert?

Between 3 and 4 but not 5.

[shinRaiden 0]

AP article

Quote[/b] ]With fighting intensifying ahead of the June 30 handover of power to an Iraqi government, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld said American commanders in Iraq would get additional troops if needed. None has asked so far, he said.

Quote[/b] ]The 30-year-old al-Sadr, however, does not have a large following among majority Shiites - many see him as a renegade, too young and too headstrong to lead wisely.

"They're not acting in the name of religion, they're acting in the name of arrogating for themselves political power and influence through violence, because they can't get it through peaceful persuasion," he said.

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps more worrisome than the current fight with al-Sadr's forces is the possibility that he will start drawing support from more mainstream Shiite leaders who have largely supported the Americans until now.

More AP

Quote[/b] ]Qays al-Khazali, one of Sadr's aides, compared the uprising to a 1991 Shi'ite rebellion eventually crushed by Saddam Hussein and said it would go on until the cleric's demands were met.

Quote[/b] ]"The uprising will continue and we will not negotiate unless they fulfill our demands, which are a withdrawal from populated areas and the release of prisoners," he told a news conference.

A U.S. official said Monday an Iraqi judge issued an arrest warrant for Sadr several months ago over the killing of a Shi'ite cleric last year. Sadr's group has denied involvement.

This is London

Quote[/b] ]The Amarah protests descended into bloody battles between demonstrators and police, and are thought to have involved the Shia leader's most loyal supporters, the so-called Madi Army.

Al-Sadr has called on his followers to bring "terror" to the Coalition occupation in a radical break with the wider majority Shia community, which was repressed under Saddam and has been broadly supportive of the Americanled invasion.

Reuters

Quote[/b] ]But determining whether the casualties are civilians or militiamen loyal to fiery cleric Moqtada al-Sadr may be impossible as fighting rages after dark in a district that is closed off by many American tanks.

Both sides are likely to try and win the media war, with Sadr's militants saying they were only protecting civilians and the Americans insisting they were fighting outlaws who threatened security.

The wounded in hospitals tell the same stories in Sadr City, where militiamen loyal to Sadr are challenging American soldiers late at night in battles that are hard to read.

Most say they were shot with no warning by U.S. troops while walking at night in the densely populated slum of about two million people.

Quote[/b] ]He suspects most of the wounded were civilians and about 20-30 percent were militiamen but there was no way of telling, especially under his working conditions.

"Some things don't make sense, especially with the younger patients who are of fighting age. What were they doing walking at night during this fighting," said Khaled.

"I really can't talk to my patients about who they are. I am scared. I feel as if I could be killed at any minute. It is similar to Saddam Hussein's system."

Officially the hospital is run by the Ministry of Health. But men in black with Kalashnikovs strapped on their shoulders run the show.

One of them left his weapon downstairs and closely listened to Khaled, who soon switched to English to complain.

"If a patient dies they threaten me and ask why I didn't save him. I am not a messenger of God I am a doctor."

For those of you who have not spent spent time in the ME, go to the beach and tell the sand drifts where to blow. Then tell a camel where not to spit. Then you will begin to understand how to talk with people from that region. Negotiating is a whole different ball game.

CIA overall level: 2.75~2.8.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Ok, this bar isnt representing myself but the mayority. I put it on 3

[NavyEEL 0]

With the current article... how can there be such a variance in the number of deaths?  Reports as "low" as 12 and as "high" as 130... seems like quite a difference to me.  If it was something like "death toll is between 10 and 20", that would seem more reasonable, but a range of over 100?  What's the deal?   The reporters really bad with math, or what?

[ralphwiggum 6]

The reporters really bad with math, or what?

one time CNN reported about .9mm caliber gun.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - At least 25 Iraqis were killed in an attack that destroyed a house in Falluja, witnesses and doctors said on Wednesday, and locals blamed U.S. forces who have launched a major crackdown in the Sunni Muslim town.

The house was reduced to rubble in the attack. Locals said four families had been sheltering there and that some victims were still buried in the debris.

I am sure the women and children in the building were guilty for killing countless US soldiers

[Bernadotte 0]

There's nothing to gain. The worse the Iraq situation gets the worse it is for Bush.

You seem quite convinced that the administration wants the handover of power to take place on schedule.  I'm not.

Had the occupation been a success story Bush would have gotten a mandate to move on to the next country and enforce the necon vision of pax Americana.

Really?  Where?  And from whom would Bush have received such a mandate?

Not to mention that an election is coming up.  How many GI:s come home in body bags is quite relevant to the outcome of the elections.

Hang on.  First you claim that a successful Iraq operation would have ensured more military mandates.  Now you raise the political spectre of body bags.  The two don't really go hand in hand, do they?

The neocon reason for the war was to establish a 'friendly' government in Iraq for both political and economic reasons. Civil disorder is hardly helping them achieve that goal.

The Neocons want friendly democracies across the entire Middle East, not just in Iraq.  But they can't simply charge into Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia without a good reason or mandate, as you put it.  The only plausible reason that I can fathom is to chase after the sponsors and supporters of Iraqi disorder.  (Btw, it's not like it hasn't happened before.  Think Vietnam/Cambodia.  Think Vietnam/Laos.  All of which ultimately led to Nixon visiting Mao.)

Just keep in mind that the USA cannot use its military to attack - it can only defend.  If Neocon invasions of other Middle East nations are to occur then they can only be undertaken against perceived threats to the USA.  Even though an eventual peace in Iraq is of great importance, an immediate peace in Iraq will only reduce the perceptable threat from other Neocon targets.  ...Which is a problem for them.

[WhoCares 0]

A very interresting document about <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2004/clergy.pdf" target="_blank">THE UNITED STATES AND IRAQ’S SHI’ITE CLERGY:

PARTNERS OR ADVERSARIES?</a> from Feruary 2004(!).

Some quotes from the first pages:

Quote[/b] ]A potentially important leader seeking to compete with the Hawza is the young and militant Muqtada al Sadr, a junior cleric whose father was Iraq’s most senior cleric in 1999 when he was murdered by Saddam’s agents. Sadr is backed by the deeply radical and anti-Semitic Grand Ayatollah Kazem Ha’eri, an Iraqi exile in Iran and a believer in a variety of hateful conspiracy theories about the United States. Sadr hopes to develop a strong following among the young and impoverished dwellers in Shi’ite slums.

Quote[/b] ]While none of Iraq’s leading Shi’ite clerics is friendly to the United States, some are more tolerant than others of the U.S. presence. None seem to trust the United States or assume that the United States has a benevolent agenda in the region. The ouster of Saddam thus earned the United States surprisingly little credit with a clerical leadership that suffered unspeakable oppression under the ousted tyrant. The dangers of militant Shi’ites committing acts of terrorism against U.S. forces in the foreseeable future thus are real and pressing. The likelihood and potential scope of such attacks will probably increase so long as the U.S. military presence continues.

Quote[/b] ]At the time of this writing, U.S. military forces in Iraq are facing serious ongoing casualties in their confrontation with predominantly Sunni Muslim Arabs, ... The Shi’ites, in contrast, while showing strong signs of impatience with the U.S. military presence, have not yet joined in the guerrilla war ... So long as they continue to remain outside of the fighting, the United States may have a reasonable chance of succeeding in the rehabilitation of Iraq. The Iraqi situation will, however, become vastly more complex should Shi’ite leaders call upon their followers to resist the U.S. military presence.

Quote[/b] ]Should Iraqi Shi’ites ever rise against the occupation, Muqtada [al Sadr] will seek to serve as the leader who anti-American elements can rally behind.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Just keep in mind that the USA cannot use its military to attack - it can only defend. If Neocon invasions of other Middle East nations are to occur then they can only be undertaken against perceived threats to the USA.

haha perceived, that is the best word that can be used in this context. Acting on "perceived" threats means nothing else than acting arbitrarily. Acting on military force and religious belief, that is called despotism.

What are we going to see during the next UN council. Again a fake image of a syrian truck that can produce and store 100.000 litres of Antrax? "perceived" means nothing else than "not based on proof".

[quicksand 0]

Update on situation in Fallujah

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJAH, Iraq - Fighting overnight between U.S. forces and Iraqi insurgents killed 60 Iraqis and wounded more than 130, hospital officials said Wednesday, as mosques called for holy war against Americans and women were seen carrying weapons in the streets.

Rocket-propelled grenade fire set a U.S. Humvee ablaze, injuring soldiers inside, witnesses said.

Among the dead were 26 people — including 16 children and up to eight women — killed when warplanes struck four houses late Tuesday, said Hatem Samir, head of the clinic at Fallujah Hospital. Others were killed in street battles before dawn and into the day Wednesday.

Messages from mosque loudspeakers called for "jihad," or holy war. Some gunmen in the street were seen carrying mortars, and some women carried automatic weapons.

edit:I`ve heared many times people ask about how are the insurgents equipped as there is almost no footage showing them.I just found some recent pictures of them in Fallujah:

.

As you can see there is nothing extraordinary about them. They are dressed in plain clothes and equipped with 30 years old AK`s and RPG`s.Talk about against all odds..

[bucket man 2]

What weapon is that in the first picture. The one on the ground is RPG-7 but what is that militant carrying?

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - At least 25 Iraqis were killed in an attack that destroyed a house in Falluja, witnesses and doctors said on Wednesday, and locals blamed U.S. forces who have launched a major crackdown in the Sunni Muslim town.

The house was reduced to rubble in the attack. Locals said four families had been sheltering there and that some victims were still buried in the debris.

I am sure the women and children in the building were guilty for killing countless US soldiers  

A young member of Shiite radical leader Moqtada al-Sadr's Army of Mehdi militia holds his Kalashnikov 07 April 2004 in Baghdad's Shiite neighborhood of Sadr city. The US-led coalition vowed to 'destroy' the banned Mehdi Army of Moqtada Sadr, which has been combating coalition troops.(AFP/Ahmad Al-Rubaye)

And in other news:

Quote[/b] ]Polish troops kill top Sadr aide in Kerbala-police

KERBALA, Iraq, April 7 (Reuters) - Polish troops killed the head of militant Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's office in Kerbala during clashes in the holy Shi'ite city on Wednesday, Iraqi police said.

Police spokesman Rahman Mashawi told Reuters Murtada al-Mussawi, who ran Sadr's Kerbala office, was killed in fighting with Polish troops in the centre of town.

There was no immediate comment from Polish forces, who head a multinational division in the area.

Sadr's militias have been battling occupying forces across south and central Iraq since Sunday. Sadr has rallied supporters with calls for an end to the occupation. The U.S. army said on Wednesday it would destroy his militia.