Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ex-RoNiN

Flashpoint revival missions and campaigns

Recommended Posts

Quote[/b] ]Each missiontype should be built using a template developed by Mini project teams

No, it shouldn't. Let mission-makers create their own mission structure if they want to, there's no logical reason to judge them on their how they want to structure a mission. Creating a custom structure allows the mission-maker to make exactly what he needs in his mission.

Quote[/b] ]It will allow much individualism and additional modification by an experienced mapper

No, frequently scripts intertwine, frequently meaning that if you try to change something in one script you'll soon have lots errors in other scripts.

Quote[/b] ]Most references are for CoOps

rock.gif

Step 1: Find a Project Leader.

Step 2: People submit missions to Leader.

Step 3: Leader gives suggestions on how to improve their missions.

Step 4: Package good, completed missions and distribute them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm need a bit of help with one of my missions i am desperate to release it soon but need a bit of help.

First i want to know which soldiers are best suited as Iraqi regulars? I am using Edges res guys since they wear the same olive green drab camo the iraqis wore andlook like them. But i am open for suggestions may god help me if i have to replacethem all AGAIN (as i have done so twice already).

Plus i wanna what sort of music you guys want or intro and need a bit of help with the storyline , i had it like this that the Mission is to strike a iraqi refinery take control of it but watch out for their engineers they might wanna blow it up ratehr then hand it to you crazy_o.gif .

After that we stay there till dark as this is a behind enenmy lines Spec-ops mission.

Then a column of Iraqi tank crosses near by we are ordered to stalk it and follow its position which we do and then later we call in Cluster bomb strikes.

Anymore ideas on this or is this fine enough?

heres a pic of th oil refinery i made ...

refinery1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm, I can feel along with many people that contribute here.

Fist of all, we are have started this thread to initiate a sort of gathering of people that TOGETHER make and release maps. To do so, we need, if you like it or not, certain "rules" the missions have to live up to. Else, there is no point in getting people together as such, because "just some average missions" could also have been released without any form of collaboration. So, some quality guidelines we have to make...

However, I do not agree with the approach Terox is heading for and that is to meticulouly plan each and every element of the maps. Personally, I see the OMS (or what its name is gona be.. ;)) as a gathering of enthousiasts that TOGETHER put the missions of the individual members to the "rules of quality" that are to be set.

I do feel, on the other hand, that since the start of this whole thread not much has been accomplished in even starting to setup an organized form of collaboration. It has been mentioned twice (by me and others) if we should set up a forum in which we can start seperate discussion topics. No responses have been posted... I mean where do we want to go? Terox, is right that if we do NOT start to seriously do some initial work , the whole thing will bleed to death as many good intentions do.

Also I feel that nitpicking now already on -if or not- to use Tonal does not help us much in the initial stage. And M21man, why contributing to the project if you have no intentions to change your missions? You can release your missions as they are not?

Ok, no flame intended. Cya!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed we need a new forum to get our ideas through for missions and a staff section to upload swap files etc etc ...without public interference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]And M21man, why contributing to the project if you have no intentions to change your missions?

I never said I wouldn't change them, I said that I wouldn't completely change them to fit Terox's idea of how to build a mission. For instance, my Battle for Tatu mission has a very intricate structure, and I'm not going to completely change it (To what would very likely be an inferior structure) in order to please him. Of course I'd change details like briefings and special effects, but I'm not going to screw around with the fundamental building blocks of my missions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But this isn't very communistic... wink_o.gif

This is the real world not some Fantasy world that students live in

You're talking about a game here man, the original plan was no leadership. Your over structurualised missionmachine will not come to benefit its atmosphere.

Just my personal opinion, as a student completely stuck in his fantasy world ghostface.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]Just my personal opinion, as a student completely stuck in his fantasy world

Dittos tounge_o.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I never said I wouldn't change them, I said that I wouldn't completely change them to fit Terox's idea of how to build a mission.

Ok, fair enough, I also do not think stuff needs to be changed just for the sake of it. If its good, its good and all partcipants can learn from looking at it...

Ok, yet again; shall I ask Shrike to make a separate, restricted forum section on the ZEUS forums (or for a comletely separate forum if required; although I do not think that really required).

When we have a restricted forum I can make arrangements for serious members to get acces to the passworded ZEUS test server for multiplayer map testing, if people feel like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]The template is designed in such a way that a novice mapmaker can easily create a well functioning mission from it

Impossible, an important part of mission-making is being able to search for and find unique places for your mission. Just provide some scripts and let people work on their own.

From the reply you obviously didnt realise that a template is exactly that,

a selection of standardised scripts

that actually work together

for instance

C&H

It would contain the following

A C&H system

a vehicle respawn script

possibly a weapon selection script like the battlefield one

possibly a simple ammocrate filler

possibly an anti TK or spawncamping system

safezone and pre safezone warning triggers

flag markers

a briefing

a object repair script to keep ammo crates, med tents in a good state of repair

These are probably the minimum systems required in a map to make it half decent

where you locate the damned mission and what vehicles, soldier types and weaponry isnt something that a template states, thats down to the mission maker

Now because folks are willing to get together on this project, as a group we would be able to make

1) The best C&H system

2) The best vehicle respawn script around

etc etc etc

in other words if you was to build a C&H mission, all the hard work of getting the functionality to work is already done for you, this gives you more time to add those individual touches, create a good atmosphere etc etc etc

Now how the hell is that restricting a missionmaker

I would be thinking wow, i click on wizard in the editor, type in a map name and hey presto all i have to do is drag a few icons to various locations and i am 1 hour infront at least from where i would be normally

and if they are written well, there is no need to alter the script, as any variables that the script uses that can be modified, such as vehicle respawn delays, if they respawn when abandoned, how long it takes them to respawn if abandoned etc etc can all be stated in the init.sqs and therefore the actual functional scripts dont need to be touched

and all these variables can be named in a tutorial explaining what they are and what values they can have

And why do i know this,  because i have done just that, it works well, if done right

and Josef stalin Communism crap isnt going to get you a lot of respect slagging somebody off who proposes an idea of how something could be done

If you take note i expressed that everything i posted was an example on how something could be done, not how it will be done, please take more care to read and interpret correctly what was said, not what you assume was said

I also dont see this going anywhere, this is just going to continue in circles, talking about fine detail before even the broadest of generalisations has been agreed on

You need to define a minimum standard, have a way of monitoring the quality, have a plan to implement, otherwise the end product will simply be a mismatch of good and bad which will ineviatably fail

I think on that note i will leave the discussion for a while as i dont at this point see it going anywhere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]and if they are written well, there is no need to alter the script, as any variables that the script uses that can be modified, such as vehicle respawn delays, if they respawn when abandoned, how long it takes them to respawn if abandoned etc etc can all be stated in the init.sqs and therefore the actual functional scripts dont need to be touched

And then your exec fields and/or init.sqs become a forest of variables, all of which must interact perfectly for the thing to work. When I suggested creating standardized scripts, I meant creating basic scripts and then letting people change them appropriately to their needs.

Quote[/b] ]and all these variables can be named in a tutorial explaining what they are and what values they can have

As before, if you try to create a standardized template you will have variables flowing out of your ears, and all of them must interact perfectly for the scripts to work.

Quote[/b] ]If you take note i expressed that everything i posted was an example on how something could be done, not how it will be done, please take more care to read and interpret correctly what was said, not what you assume was said

Now that's just stupid. It doesn't matter if it's "could" or "will", I was going after your suggestion because it's impractical.

Quote[/b] ]and Josef stalin Communism crap isnt going to get you a lot of respect slagging somebody off who proposes an idea of how something could be done

You suggested a semi-totalitarian method for how we should assemble these missions, a method that probably would have driven off talented mission makers who didn't want to be judged on whether they used your beloved templates.

Quote[/b] ]You need to define a minimum standard, have a way of monitoring the quality, have a plan to implement, otherwise the end product will simply be a mismatch of good and bad which will ineviatably fail

That's easily prevented through this little thing called "beta testing".

Quote[/b] ]I also dont see this going anywhere, this is just going to continue in circles, talking about fine detail before even the broadest of generalisations has been agreed on

No, all we need is for someone to step up and say "Start making missions on this island."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terox, I hope that you finally start to make a distinction between PvP maps, which you know a lot about, and the COOP/SP missions we are mainly talking about here. Not all mission types are easily put in a general template.

Some things we do need to set standards (possibly in a form of a template, if you whish) on to my opinion:

1] All COOP maps should contain the Kegety's spectator script

2] All COOP/PvP maps should feature my weapon selection dialog, as commandes do not have to tweak the weapons of all team members each time prior to start

3] For COOP/SP maps we should aim for a certain level of realism we all feel ok about.

4] For COOP/SP maps we should agree on a enemy removal/spawning system that reduces and adjusts the number of enemys on the map so the maps dont lag as of the large number of AI'

5] We should assist people getting non-editor stuff to work if they don't know how to do it (e.g., snYpir support pack, CoC Unified Artillery)

6] Some people that are capable, should have a look at cutscenes and where needed or possble improve.

etc, etc,....

Ok, I would like to drop the whole template issue here. Who feels like making a template should not hestitate to contribute, but imposing it on participants i as bridge to far...

Lets get more constructive.... As no-one takes initiative, I will open up a restricted forum on www.ofp-zeus.com and see what comes of it. When opened up you are all welcome.

Cya, Pimmelorus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not follow these simple guidelines: K.I.S.S

Keep it simple stupid

rock.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Munk, as a collective we have various members to whom certain nice stuff (scripts, ideas, etc) are more clear than to other members. Some are good in cutscenes, others in working in the mapeditor, etc

My idea , therefore, is that the missions will NOT be "K.I.S.S.", but will feature nice, advanced things that is contributed by the different members.

For the "K.I.S.S." maps the way you suggest, we have no need for a team of map makers... Or am I missing the point? Then, be more specific...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do feel, on the other hand, that since the start of this whole thread not much has been accomplished in even starting to setup an organized form of collaboration. It has been mentioned twice (by me and others) if we should set up a forum in which we can start seperate discussion topics.

On the contrary, I have a basic design for the website ready, I am off on holiday tomorrow but if if Jap comes online tonight then there will be a website up and running either tonight or tomorrow morning.

As I said earlier, once the website is up and running, THEN we can put the forums on. We need to build some infrastructure first before we can go any further.

Terox, I don't like your approach. It is too strict, too generic, too boring. The way this is going to work is as follows: a general theme is agreed upon, based on that theme old and unfinished missions (or new ones) will be put together. They will be in various stages of completion and other people in the team will work hard to fix the holes and get them working.

I don't know if you have made missions in the past, Terox, but in case you haven't, a very important part of mission making is beta testing. The nature of OFP is such that throwaway-prototyping does not work, so you have to check the missions at least 10 times to make sure it is working. It can be very frustrating crazy_o.gif 8/10 of my unfinished missions are unfinished because in the end I just couldn't be bothered anymore because a particular event didn't work, for example. This is how collaboration is going to help.

As for making missions have the same look and feel, I dislike this idea most. Missions are something very unique. OFP is a very flexible game and you can tell a story in a thousand different ways. Anyone remember Fairy Island? Every mission maker can do what he wants, every other mission maker is there to help him finish the mission. As long as the general theme is met (not necessarily literally), anything goes smile_o.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well firstly Ronin, i have quite a lot of experience in missionmaking,

I am the chief map admin for EFL and have been since spring last year

I know all about beta testing, as it is one of the main issues i have to overcome on a weekly basis

I know absolutely nothing about coop, and i pointed out also that a coop couldnt be template based, simply because every one would be so different

there are links on some of my previous posts, which if you spent the time browsing, would give you more insight into what quality level you could achieve, although for such a large group, it would be almost unobtainable

However something on a much smaller and simple scale could easily be obtained

as for normal pvp missions,

let me try to explain why i think the use of a template (As basic as you want to make it could be an important part in those type of mission creations)

Lets talk about a Basic CTF as an example

A CTF is made up of 2 flags, 2 respawns, some weapons and possibly vehicles, cosmetic stuff such as objects etc, and all these items are placed somewhere on a map

A ctf has to have a "CTF" flag system, every ctf has one

Which one is the best?

Most mapmakers would say their's is

Which one really is, who knows

But if you are going to make a collective of maps, then wouldnt it be better, to have all ctf's using the most optimised and best scripted system there is

and as a group of mapmakers/scripters you have the potential to create just that

so a  simple ctf mission, then becomes a template to create CTF's on. we all use templates in one form or another to create the type of maps that we make, by copy n paste or merge or whatever other form you may use

So like it or not, we all right now use some form of template

All i am saying is make the basics a well scripted and optimised system, and from that add whatever you want on top of it etc etc etc

**********************************************

What i see being created here is simply a pool of missions with no basic standard, that folks will try to fit into some sort of storeyline.

In other words just a website where you can download missions from

well if thats the ceilings for your ambitions, then you dont need to discuss anything, you just need an ftp site and a way of letting folks know where it is

You wont need the pool of experience and knowledge to do that, just a few guys, a server that will beta test missions

some forums to discuss those missions on

and there are dozens of servers and forums that already do that, so basically this would appear to be nothing more than a hyped up publicity stunt

Thats how i see it at the moment, am i wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Terox, I hope that you finally start to make a distinction between PvP maps, which you know a lot about, and the COOP/SP missions we are mainly talking about here. Not all mission types are easily put in a general template.

Yes mate i made that distinction, in a previous post that you probably wouldnt be able to make a coop template, and i am not talking about the post that precedes this one

but as you quite rightly said, even coops should have some basic stuff in it

such as the spectate script

so right there you have the starts of a simple coop template

As for coops, i would like to see a Minimum player number for them,  or better still a system that looks how many players are actually playing and then adjusts the enemy numbers to suit

There is nothing worse that having plenty on the server and being unable to find a mission that supports that number

even worse, the mapmaker wont get that mission played as much, as one who creates it for larger numbers

I was under the impression, that this was for all kinds of mission types, not just coops,sp.... well if that is the case take no notice of any of my previous posts, as my interpretation was that this initiative was to encourage creation of all kinds of missions and make it easier for those who struggle

Obviously not

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im talking about the planning stages, not the actual missions rock.gif

Trying to over complicate something will 99.9% end badly (Well atleast for me). Its why most of my missions get binned. Then again, I couldn't make a script if I had a scripting guru using an electrofied scripting machine crazy_o.giftounge_o.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh can we get this over with already? crazy_o.gif

I am a bit tired of the complicated arguments so far as to how it is done. Lets see some results already otherwise this thing will keep going backforth in here.

Lets get the website up if you need need help designing it give me a buzz i can help i , was webmaster for Nomad Mod so i know a bit about HTML and stuff and graphics too.

So Ronin you got a team list yet too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the contrary, I have a basic design for the website ready, I am off on holiday tomorrow but if if Jap comes online tonight then there will be a website up and running either tonight or tomorrow morning.

As I said earlier, once the website is up and running, THEN we can put the forums on. We need to build some infrastructure first before we can go any further

*whipes sweat from he forehead*

Ok thnx Ex-Ronin, I though nothing happened as I got no replies. Now I hear this I can find my peace again ... smile_o.gif

I do not know is we are talkign about the same thing here concenign missions "with the same look and feel". I by no means think about restricting a map makers creativity, but was more thinking along (where appropriate) each map using Kegety's spectator script, use a intro layout that is recognizably of the new collaboration, etc. Its more like lets say the missions that are released by BAS (Tonal, etc) that all have a very recognizable "feel" to them, but all are very different missions in content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, regarding unique look and feel:

- the website will have a download section, where several different mission making technologies will be available for download

- design for look and feel can be discussed once forum is up

- i've lost track of who wants to actually participate, can everyone who's interested please say so in large bold letters crazy_o.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright folks, time to weigh in from the sidelines:

The arguments you are having seem to be rooted in one central problem: there's not a clear idea of what this thing you're trying to do is.

Terox is talking templates, MP templates, and SOPs.

Other folks are saying things like "don't restrict me in anything, just let me release a mission on this island as part of your project".

Yet others are seeing this as some opportunity for a big mission-making cooperative, where helpful souls do the stuff that mission makers don't want to do.

---

okay, reality check time:

The one mission statement I found here was the desire to produce professional-looking missions that will revitalize interest in OFP and make use of the underutilized addons out there.

Okay, how do we do this?

First, remember that for us, mission making is an amateur, unpaid effort. Amateur efforts differ from professional ones in several respects.

Pros:

Amateurs love their work, and can dedicate economically unfeasible amounts of time to making it run.

Cons:

Amateurs will avoid the things they don't like.

So why do we have tons of unfinished missions on our hard drives? Because we lost interest. The last "10%" is the hardest, and takes the longest.

I've got more bad news: getting all the beta testers in the world, and all the collaborators possible isn't going to finish that last 10 percent. For some reason, nobody likes doing that stuff.

So those who claim that beta testing, a community support-group, and a sharing of resources will make it possible to finish these missions are wrong. OFPEC performs those functions already; their "mission project" died a long time ago, and all the help in the world can't take the place of painful work on the part of the mission maker.

The solution to the amateur problem is discipline, not a group.

But a group can help promote discipline, and through it the professional appearance of the final product.

One way is through a use of SOPs and standard conventions. You want to write missions as part of a group? Great, but if that group is worth anything, they'll have a set "way to write missions".

If you make a set of standards -- standards which do not impinge on the aesthetic choices of the mission maker -- it's then much easier for people to collaborate.

A classic example of this sort of standard is practice of putting a gamelogic on a map and naming it "server". But we can multiply the examples and cases. Standards like these don't effect the mission maker's choices in any meaningful way, but they sure as hell make it easier to debug missions, and for many people to work on the same project.

This is the logic that the "professional-looking" mod groups use. why write a separate MP transport for each specific task when we can have a guy write a single, comprehensive set of services? Then everything we have will work in the same way, and when it breaks, we can fix it easily.

A "jumble of variables" may sound confusing; but if you have a list of what those variables do, and you adhere to it in your scripting, you can actually work on someone else's mission. Hell, you can work on your own mission a lot more efficiently too -- no need to go flipping through 15 scripts to find what exactly you named your variable.

So, to recap:

A good standard: global variable "Server" should point to a gamelogic on the map.

A bad standard: All cutscenes must be done with triggers. (why? if someone wants to make a good-looking cutscene, so much the better).

Second, you want people to download your missions. This isn't a vanity project -- it is designed to reinvigorate interest in the game, and give us all cool missions to use with the toys. For this, you need to have some homogeneity among your missions.

So you need to decide what kinds of missions you'll be making.

Adversarial MP missions are very different from Coop missions; SP missions may seem close to Coop missions, but the difference in the amount of work and testing required is impressive.

Each of these mission types has a separate audience, and a distribution method unique to it.

You also need to determine a standard list of addons. This is not personal choice here. Some good addons are going to be left out.

The number 1 reason why a mission is not downloaded is because it requires certain addons. The major problem with OFP has been that addons are scattered to the wind; this is what the project seeks to remedy.

To put it in even simpler terms: for each additional step that you require a player to take, you lose half your audience.

If you have a single download that extracts the addons to a mod folder and the missions to the mission folder, and sets up a shortcut for it all to work, you will have far more people playing your missions than if for each mission you require people to download and install addons.

I don't care what you think people should do; this is what people actually do.

Finally, you need to do a certain level of quality control on each of the missions. For people to trust your name, you need to be able to guarantee a good product. Otherwise you're just a flag of convenience.

Let's face it, some people aren't cut out to work in groups; there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're series about creating a directed enterprise, you need to start with some direction.

You don't have to go full-on, with each mission having people working on such things as:

Producer

Writer

Director

Scripter

Music/Sound/Dialog

Cutscenes

2D Artwork

Testing

I mean, that'd be nice, but we are amateurs here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thnx Dinger for getting a realistic image of what it takes to become a successfull group of map makers. I do feel though, that some aspects you mention here that concern "standardized ways of conduct" will have to be learned the hard way. But thats part of the fun right...?

@Ex-Ronin

I have no experience in actually making maps, but I do know

my share of scripting, especially under a client/server environment. Apart from that, I am getting more and more interested in the techniques of advanced COOP design, (I like CoC Enemy Stack in particular) and I hope to learn a lot from other partcipants. I hope too that people see this collaboration as an exchange of knowledge, besides making maps just for the sake of it.

So officially, yes I would like to participate

So, thats said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Right, regarding unique look and feel:

- the website will have a download section, where several different mission making technologies will be available for download

- design for look and feel can be discussed once forum is up

- i've lost track of who wants to actually participate, can everyone who's interested please say so in large bold letters crazy_o.gif

INTERESTED wink_o.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent post Dinger, thank you for this!

And a set of standards is required imho, there's no need to reinvent the wheel over and over again. It will increase output and quality of the final products and this is what the community needs.

As I never ever made a map myself I will not participate in the creative part of it.

However I can offer a well working and private dedicated testserver to test MP maps in a proper environment and hopefully speed up the creation process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>I WILL DONATE SOME SP MISSIONS!</span>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×