Hold down right mouse button for "pose control"

[Prospero 1]

Hi all,

First off, I do realise that we all have a favourite function mapped to the right mouse button (in my case, optics). But forget about that for now... (ha!). Assume, if you will, that the right mouse button is free.

In OFP and FPSs in general, one never really feels in control of one's body - yes, one can walk, run, look around etc, but one can't actually lean out round a corner or peep over some sandbags with the same degree of speed and agility. One always has to fumble for keys to do these things.

My idea is to use the right hand mouse button for what I guess I'll call "Pose Control". Simply put, whether static or on the move, by pressing and holding down the right mouse button you can change your pose. Forward/backward mouse motion would then control whether one is standing, crouched, or prone (and ESSENTIALLY one would have _continuous_ control, not just "step" control between predefined poses). Side to side mouse motion would be for peering round corners - and again, _continuous_ sharp control would be the ticket here. Speed and intuitiveness is everything - just like "mouse look" was a revelation back in the days of Quake 1.

This way you could literally take a snap look round that corner, or over that sandbag, or contrarily, a very slow, considered peek ;) Just like, well... reality.

Prospero

EDIT: Just a quick edit... I meant to include this in my original post: Maximum speed of movement would then be determined by pose adopted. Let's face it, we always move as fast as possible (always run!) - there are exceptions, but such matters could be easily overcome - speed (max speed obviously pose dependent) set by middle mouse wheel button a la Splinter Cell and H&D2 perhaps (although I don't like this particularly)?

EDIT: As Gameer points out later in the thread, the point is to have the up/down and side to side "pose changing" working together coherently and simultaneously - ie just pop up and round the edge of that window and fire a few aimed shots;) Yum:) Then duck back down! The right hand mouse button + associated mouse movements can be thought of as "dragging" one's pose around in the plane perpendicular to the direction one is facing. (Although some degree of of "turn" might work well too)?

[void_false 1]

really great idea, indeed!!! i liked that. didn's see it in other games. it gonna be amazing and much more realistic.

[Gameer 0]

Excellent idea. It'd be a great feature to have, certainly...Though I think Raven Shield had a side-to-side movement key similar to what you're thinking, but if OFP could do a 360° kind of rotatation system, it'd be excellent and completely revolutionary.

Just pray some pansy little 3rd person shooter doesn't come along and steal the idea.

[Prospero 1]

Hehe. I've never played Raven Shield. Well(!) at least someone else is considering it. In Raven Shield is the pose controlled directly by mouse? I.e. quick fluid torso movement?

Prospero

[Gameer 0]

I do believe it is just a command that can be assigned to the mouse, I guess, but all it is is a "lean left"/"lean right" function but by holding it down you can use the mouse to have finer control of the movement, rather than the 0-1 type control when you use the keys.

So no movement vertically, just left and right. Yawn.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I do believe it is just a command that can be assigned to the mouse, I guess, but all it is is a "lean left"/"lean right" function but by holding it down you can use the mouse to have finer control of the movement, rather than the 0-1 type control when you use the keys.

So no movement vertically, just left and right. Yawn.

But the movement is very smooth, and it's ideal for poking your gun around a corner and popping a tango. OFP doesn't need this unless BI wants to seriously improve CQB in OFP2.

[Prospero 1]

Quote[/b] ]I do believe it is just a command that can be assigned to the mouse, I guess, but all it is is a "lean left"/"lean right" function but by holding it down you can use the mouse to have finer control of the movement, rather than the 0-1 type control when you use the keys.

So no movement vertically, just left and right. Yawn.

But the movement is very smooth, and it's ideal for poking your gun around a corner and popping a tango. OFP doesn't need this unless BI wants to seriously improve CQB in OFP2.

Some people just aren't with the program.

CQB must be a military term;)

Prospero

[m21man 0]

CQB - Close Quarters Battle

[mrmetallica 0]

remember ofp2 will be in the vietnam era so there will be alot of trees and stuff, this will be very useful.

[m21man 0]

I would go for a simple "peek left" and "peek right" idea. I don't think that OFP requires some of the exact movement required in RS.

[cozza 24]

Pretty confusing for some-one with low IQ (Me) and in the middle of a huge fight your looking and have to duck. Do the right mouse thining and u dont notice some basterd on the left of you a BANG

uncle sam sends a lettr home

[Gameer 0]

I'd imagine BIS could pull this off and make it easy and fast to use. It doesn't need to be CQB, it'd work great if you're behind sandbags, trees, bushes, anything...

Remember that it'd be movement vertically AND horizontaly. So you wouldn't have to move to "crouch" to get a shot over a sandbag, hell there wouldn't even need to be a "crouch" action.

I really do hope BIS implements this, at least to some degree, as it'd work superbly with an OFP game better than any other arcadey FPS.

[Prospero 1]

Another thing I like about it is you can lean side to side AND move at the same time. This overcomes the problem whereby you try to lean round a corner but aren't quite close enough to the apex to see round it - which is very annoying! (And which is why I never bother to lean round corners in FPSs).

Prospero

[Gameer 0]

Yeah, I don't think I've ever used any of these silly 0-1 leans, they take a lotta fun/skill out of the games too, I think. Most of the time the AI don't even shoot back.

I really do hope BIS does something like this, how often do you see soldiers exposing all their bodies in a battlefield to fire...?

[Prospero 1]

I've been thinking more about this (since there's been a bit of positive feedback), and I guess the hardest thing to work round (in terms of both animation and just straightforward playability) is the disjuncture between standing/crouched posture, and prone posture. There's a point where it becomes tricky to implement these two "modes" of movement in a truly _continuous_ manner.

A practical example: Let's say it were implemented as a truly _continuous_ change of posture - i.e. all the way from standing to prone (and back again). In this case one might find that one had moved the mouse too far, and had gone prone accidentally when one had only meant to crouch down as far as possible. This would spoil the whole thing completely, as one would suddenly find oneself moving at crawling speed rather than crouch speed (huge difference).

This said, one wants to be able to go from standing to prone in some situations (i.e. "diving for cover").

I don't really have a solution at the moment, but hey, I guess I'll keep on thinking. There would need to be some extra control (or feedback) for the player to deal with the crouch to prone posture change?

EDIT: One idea: to "unlock" the ability to go beyond full crouch and to prone, one would signal one's intent to do so by holding down right & left buttons (together). On the way back up from prone to standing, just right mouse button would be necessary (though you could also keep both buttons pressed, if you wanted). Shame to complicate things though...

EDIT: Regarding side to side posture change (for peeking round corners): I'd exaggerate it as far as possible (the human body is very flexible!). Plus there's the issue of self-centering (or resuming a straight pose), but I think this could be dealt with relatively easily: Any prolonged movement (i.e. WSAD crawling/walking/running movement) would quickly but smoothly reset the side to side pose to its central position. Only way to figure out how prolonged would be through testing, but I wouldn't imagine more than a second...;)

EDIT: Of course, the truly elegant thing to do regarding side to side posture change would be that if the player reaches the limit of the peeking posture but finds he's not quite round the corner, he automatically begins sidestepping (or sidecrawling) in the direction of the peek without the need for WSAD movement - i.e. simply by dragging the mouse further in the intended direction.

EDIT: Another way to deal with the "unintended" crouch to prone problem might be to simply detect velocity (and/or acceleration) of vertical axis mouse motion: I.e. only if the player gives a really fast tug downwards on the mouse does it mean, "Go prone! (dive for cover!!)" And hence no need for the left mouse button. There would have to be an option to determine the rate in Options however, to suit different people's tastes. I should note here that most of the problems exist from standing to prone, which often needs to be fast, but not from prone to standing, which can be a slower, more considered affair.

Prospero

[Gameer 0]

I think you may be over-complicating things here

What about having the same standing-crouching-prone dynamics as OFP has just now, plus use the right mouse button to move about in that posture. If you wanted to move to the crouching position you'd hold down the right mouse button and use the scroll wheel to move your posture down a stage.

This could be in increments so to still have that sense of control over the player's height. The vertical movement of the mouse would then allow for precision control of the player's body in the certain stance.

Let me paint a picture :

You want to quickly move from running to prone, so you hold the right-mouse button down and drag the mouse wheel downwards, so making you go completely prone. If you wanted to peek over the top of an obstacle then, you may have to increase your height by holding the right-mouse button and using the scroll wheel to move up slightly. You'd then use the right-mouse button to allow quick movement vertically and horizontally.

[mooncaine 0]

Let's face it, we always move as fast as possible (always run!) - there are exceptions, but such matters could be easily overcome -

Speaking of that: one feature I really like about OFP is that you incur a penalty for always running at top speed: your gun is less steady while you catch your breath, and, most importantly, your heavy breathing is loud and might give you away --- forcing you to think about whether you really want to run or not. Often, playing a Hexenkessel map, I refrain from running because I don't want the enemy to hear me coming.

I wouldn't want that to change. I like that feature. I wouldn't mind being able to lean around corners, but I don't favor your plan for the right-mouse button, because holding down a mouse button will put a lot of wear and tear on your wrist and hand, and I get enough of that already because I play on the computer so darn much.

[Prospero 1]

I think you may be over-complicating things here    

What about having the same standing-crouching-prone dynamics as OFP has just now, plus use the right mouse button to move about in that posture. If you wanted to move to the crouching position you'd hold down the right mouse button and use the scroll wheel to move your posture down a stage.

This could be in increments so to still have that sense of control over the player's height. The vertical movement of the mouse would then allow for precision control of the player's body in the certain stance.

Let me paint a picture :

You want to quickly move from running to prone, so you hold the right-mouse button down and drag the mouse wheel downwards, so making you go completely prone. If you wanted to peek over the top of an obstacle then, you may have to increase your height by holding the right-mouse button and using the scroll wheel to move up slightly. You'd then use the right-mouse button to allow quick movement vertically and horizontally.

Yep, I like your proposed scheme too. The prob is still though, to achieve it all seamlessly with _just_ one button (i.e. the right mouse button). Otherwise it severely compromises the elegance.

I'm sure it is possible, it's just a matter of thinking deeply (never my strong point) ;)

By the way, ever wished they made mice with a stiffer spring for the middle wheel button so that you can turn the wheel without pushing the button? Or is it just me?

Prospero

[Gameer 0]

Just you (I have an MX500)

Maybe we should leave the control implementation to BIS (if they consider the idea) and talk more about how it'd work etc.

[TheManWithManyIdeas 0]

Might actually cause more problems that solutions.

May become too fiddly, and how exactly are you supposed to look up at the sky and down to the ground if the up/down motion is assigned to prone/stand?

One thing though, is that the spped at which you turn and get up needs to be improved.

I found it way too slow trying to get up off the floor and although it was realistic speed, it was also very frustrating.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I wish people would read properly.

Looking up and down wouldn't be a problem because you wouldn't be holding the pose control button.

Getting up and down speeds are fine as they are, doubly so since they are realistic. I don't care if you find it frustrating that you cant bounce around.

[Prospero 1]

EDIT: Regarding side to side posture change (for peeking round corners): I'd exaggerate it as far as possible (the human body is very flexible!). Plus there's the issue of self-centering (or resuming a straight pose), but I think this could be dealt with relatively easily: Any prolonged movement (i.e. WSAD crawling/walking/running movement) would quickly but smoothly reset the side to side pose to its central position. Only way to figure out how prolonged would be through testing, but I wouldn't imagine more than a second...;)

EDIT: Of course, the truly elegant thing to do regarding side to side posture change would be that if the player reaches the limit of the peeking posture but finds he's not quite round the corner, he automatically begins sidestepping (or sidecrawling) in the direction of the peek without the need for WSAD movement - i.e. simply by dragging the mouse further in the intended direction.

I'm quoting myself, but I wanted to make a point:

The second edit (above) could well provide a solution to the problem mentioned in the first edit (i.e. the self-centering of side to side posture). I.e: If the "dragging the mouse further to start sidestepping" idea were implemented, the side to side pose could simply be centered as soon as a WSAD keypress is detected. The beauty of this is that one could still maintain a leaning pose (for shooting around corners) + move side to side (for adjustment) + move up and down --- all without having the side to side pose suddenly reset itself to center (which would be awful and totally spoil the kind of careful sniping (or CQB - ha!) scenario I'm envisaging here).

I just can't imagine that many scenarios where one would want to be able to move forward/backward whilst leaning... at least I don't think it's critical. Then again, I could be wrong. It might be more intuitive the other way. It's a suck it and see kinda thing.

I do hope that makes sense.

EDIT: It should be noted that releasing the "pose control" button (right mouse button or whatever - it really could be any key at all - Q, for example) must of course NOT recenter the side to side pose, and nor must subsequent mouse aiming motion. This would render the whole exercise entirely pointless.

EDIT: And yes, the Baron seems to be actually reading the thread rather than just scanning through it.

Prospero

[Gameer 0]

The more i think about this, the more it makes sense. BIS really does have to do something like this, it's innovative and fits perfectly into the type of game OFP is.

C'mon BIS.

[Prospero 1]

Hehe I've just thought of a problem - but it isn't actually a problem. Handedness - i.e. when side to side leaning, it makes a difference which way you lean and in which hand you hold your weapon.

But it's not too much of an issue since all BIS would have to do is ensure they allow plenty of leaning range.

EDIT: One thing we haven't talked about yet is how much to roll the "camera" during a lean. I have to say my own view is very little, if at all. Any roll (regardless of vertical pose) should be there to give the player visual feedback that he is indeed leaning, rather than sidestepping (or sidecrawling) - and in this way, some measure of roll is important. But further, it's also a matter of testing to determine whether mouse aiming during a lean should either be aligned to the head lean axes or remain aligned to body axes.

EDIT: Should such a scheme as I've outlined be adopted, I also believe that any WSAD keypress should override the "pose control" button (and mode), should it be depressed at the time. This way one would be able to "draw back" quickly and intuitively from any hostile nastiness using the familiar WSAD keys (accompanied by an immediate straightening of pose if one happened to be "leaned out" at the time).

EDIT: Regarding speed of movement, I think it's pretty simple (as far as GAMES go) - default should be as fast as possible (according to vertical pose), with some kind of modifier for slow stealth. This is much simpler than a whole range of speeds which, in all honesty, no-one will ever use. Besides, owing to the adopted vertical pose + fast/slow modifier, there would be a whole range of speeds/stealth available.

EDIT: Almost a trivial point, but since "amount of lean" should properly be dependent on vertical pose, I would say that standing lean and crouching lean should lean identically, with a slight reduction in lean for prone (this is a playability compromise, but still realistic). Actually no, keep it simple - max lean displacement same for all vertical poses.

Prospero (the edit king)

[Gameer 0]

lol

I think the handedness issue only requires another set of animations for the other side, not so much of a problem as a detail.

I think the camera would roll as if it were the actual head being tilted to the side, whether it is in 3rd or 1st person.

Quote[/b] ]Should such a scheme as I've outlined be adopted, I also believe that any WSAD keypress should override the "pose control" button (and mode), should it be depressed at the time. This way one would be able to "draw back" quickly and intuitively from any hostile nastiness using the familiar WSAD keys (accompanied by an immediate straightening of pose if one happened to be "leaned out" at the time).

Why?

Quote[/b] ]Regarding speed of movement, I think it's pretty simple (as far as GAMES go) - default should be as fast as possible (according to vertical pose), with some kind of modifier for slow stealth. This is much simpler than a whole range of speeds which, in all honesty, no-one will ever use. Besides, owing to the adopted pose + fast/slow modifier, there would be a whole range of speeds/stealth available.

Yeah, like Splinter Cell do you mean?