Joint eu military

[denoir 0]

This week the foundation of a EU military was laid by Britain, France and Germany. The goal of this is to create a fully unified and integrated EU military. There have been some serious discussions about this. USA has made it very clear that they think that they don't like the idea at all and that it will lead in the end to the dismantling of NATO.

EU today has about twice the conventional military power of USA if you look at raw numbers (personel, planes, tanks...). USA has about five times the number of nukes, but the relevance of that can be debated as USA could blow up the world 15 times while the EU could "only" blow it up three times.

Anyhow, today the militaries of the EU countries are not in any way coordinated and integrated.

The critics of the plans say that polarizing the world is bad. Creating another super power only makes the world more dangerous.

The proponents of the plans say that a counter-weight to US political influence through military power is needed. By providing the military strength, today USA sets the agenda. Giving EU an even greater military strength would shift the focus from invasions like the Iraq war to more humanitarian missions. Obviously the UN would get a boost in terms of military power with a strong EU.

So, what do you think? Good idea or bad?

[EiZei 0]

At least it sounds a better idea than joining NATO. (for me that is )

[Blink Dog 0]

Would you want a French general leading you? I know I wouldn't.

[turms 0]

It is a very good idea, but that would propably mean that europe would agree on all european defence policy. Im for the army integration, but against common foreign/defence policies inside EU.

[InqWiper 0]

EU sucks, lets not get more involved than we are already.

[coporal_punishment 0]

Instead of spending money on restructuring each country's defence force for the EU militrary. Why not change NATO to tailor current situations.

IE. Allow NATO operations to be allowed to move out of the European Theatre.

NATO is already a great base which can easily be moulded into a purpose it needs to serve. It has a great command post and an excellent doctorine which allows militrary's to easily intergrate into one another.

This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American.

[Apollo 0]

Difficult to say.At the moment ,this army hasn't got widespread support yet ,Key players like Britian havn't voiced support.

But then Potentially that E.U force ,if politicly achievable (wich i hope) could become a strong force and enable the EU to have a stronger position within NATO.I doe belive we still should work with the U.S within the NATO ,as the U.S is still Europe's most important partner.Our economy's are interconnected ,and we share all the moral and democratic ideal's that so many other country's in the world don't have.NATO is key to Western influence in the world ,especially with power growing country's like China and India.

Within Nato ,the EU and the U.S could actually help eachother a lot.The U.S has the benifit of having the best offensive material in the world ,While the E.U has the largest manpower and finacial volume.The U.S could take on the offensive part and Europe the peace building part.ANd truly one doesn't have to do the job of the other.It's clear that the E.U is much more capable and effective as a peace keeping force than the U.S.Europe could deploy more peacekeeping foces in a country than the U.S can ,because the U.S millitary in a fact is WAY more expensive than the E.U's peace forces.Iraq and it's aftermath has blown a hughe hole in the U.S budget ,and there are relativly few men.EU peace keeping forces are way cheaper ,and Europe has a stronger budget.In addition europe has a lot more credibilety in such unstable country's most of the time.It seems for ex. that the Brits are doing a much better job at peacekeeping in Iraqthan the U.S does.Hence one of my quote's: You can't restore civil order with Stealth bombers.

[EiZei 0]

This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American.

I invite you to list all the sacrifices the USians did for my country. Even during WW2.

EDIT: It might had been a good idea to put two extra options for people who are not EU citizens.

[coporal_punishment 0]

This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American.

I invite you to list all the sacrifices the USians did for us. Even during WW2.

Your telling me you would prefer to live in Communism or under the Nazi regieme because without America joinind the war you could wave good-bye to a free Europe, becuase either way Russia would occupy the whole of Europe or the Nazi's would.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American

I cant understand how will unifying Europe be anti us? where is the logig in that?

[EiZei 0]

This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American.

I invite you to list all the sacrifices the USians did for us. Even during WW2.

Your telling me you would prefer to live in Communism or under the Nazi regieme

Last time I checked we have not had a communist/nazi regime and we have not been allies of the US ever.

[coporal_punishment 0]

Quote[/b] ]This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American

I cant understand how will unifying Europe be anti us? where is the logig in that?

Well NATO has alrady been setup as a joint militrary union and now they are making another one.

[EiZei 0]

You think that newer NATO members like Poland are in Iraq just for the fun of it?

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American

I cant understand how will unifying Europe be anti us? where is the logig in that?

Well NATO has alrady been setup as a joint militrary union and now they are making another one.

So if a military coalition is formed in somewhere, outside Europe, for example Asia, do you still think that the military coalition is against US?

[bn880 5]

Of course it has to be done, EU is not taken seriously now by the US at all. It has to unite it's forces and especially command/communication in order to work in unisom as a single battle force.

For all the US chaps bitching at EU joining forces, fine, make each of your states have seperate militaries and communication systems which are incompatible with each other in the battlefield. Come on now, you are the heroes let's see you spilt your army into 30 small ones.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]This is just another one of those anti US things lead by Europeans who arn't greatful of the sacrifices the US made and before you say that i'm sympathatic towards America i'm not an American

I cant understand how will unifying Europe be anti us? where is the logig in that?

Well NATO has alrady been setup as a joint militrary union and now they are making another one.

Ok like I said then, divide your military in the states into 30 or 50 pieces since NATO exists.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well NATO has alrady been setup as a joint militrary union and now they are making another one.

Actually ,the current setup of NATO is what is the problem.Within NATO ,all country's put in their effort individually ,thus no European country has a real strong presence in NATO ,and their army's work less effective due to do many difference's with other E.U army's.Therefore ,America that has a majority of Material in the Nato has an all strong position within it ,and the E.U country's feelthat their oppinion doesn't matter since it's all heard individually.

Therefore ,1: a joint E.U military would work way more effective as it could balance material and work to an overall effective army ,and thus a joint E.U millitary will strenthen the NATO more and 2: it will allow for the E.U to put more presure on The U.S should it have a fundamentely different oppinion on a certain issue.

Afcourse ,there are many "hawk's" in the U.S wich don't like the idea's.But frankly those neoconservatives can kiss my shiny *** .(with the aftermath of Iraq ,i guess some of these guys will have to kiss some mayor *** to just save their skin )

Many democrats in america can see positive thing's in a joint E.U millitary in the NATO to make a strong force ,especially in the war against terrorism.

Besides ,it would be really dumb of the U.S to try to stop the E.U in doing such things.It would only make anti U.S sentiment in Europa larger ,and could alienate the E.U from NATO actually.And that would be a pitty ,for the E.U nad especially for the U.S.A ,believe me.In the long run the U.S needs a strong Europe as country's like China and India are growing stronger and stronger.The U.s is now maybe at the Zenith of it's power ,but in the future it will surely need the E.U. wich probably will ,in a distantant future ,frow much more powerfull than the U.S. .

The thought that a strong E.U could threaten the U.S is plain rediculous.Europe and the U.S are way to economicly intermingled to be able to become in conflict with eachother.

heck when 9/11 happend toghteher with the stock downturn in the U.S ,the E.U suffered economicly from that to ,it just shows how economicly integrated the U.S and E.U are.

Quote[/b] ]Your telling me you would prefer to live in Communism or under the Nazi regieme because without America joinind the war you could wave good-bye to a free Europe, becuase either way Russia would occupy the whole of Europe or the Nazi's would.

Would the U.S have been able to bome independant withought French aid in the American independance war from the U.K?

Does that mean that the U.S should listen to whatever the French say i Nato due to respect?

[Tamme 0]

I say yes for joint EU military. Europe should be more united since we have a long history behind us and it would be nice to see Europe fighting together for a change. No one takes EU seriously. No one would take USA seriously if they didn't have the best military in the world. Who'd give a rats ass about 52 little nations bitching about something across the ocean?

[Grizzlie 0]

I don't think it is good idea. It seems to be best way to NATO cancellation, and it is not good. While war in ex-Yugoslavia Europe had to as US for help in military. And setting new forces means dividing existing ones (part in NATO, part in EU forces). And in practise, how many commom projects were made so far? Jaguar, Tornado, Tiger and maybe A400M in 15-20 years, and how many was cancelled because they coudn't make compromise?

Maybe in next 10-15 years it could be discussed, but now...

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't think it is good idea. It seems to be best way to NATO cancellation, and it is not good.

I see that NATO has fullfilled its task as a counterpole to warsavpact. I dont see any reason for NATO to exist anymore.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe in next 10-15 years it could be discussed, but now...

I agree there that indeed we might not be pliticly ready for it ,but in the long run i support working towards achieving it.One can only try ,and when all prob's are set asside we can build it ,but that may indeed take several years.

Technoligy however shouldn't be determinal.In comparison to the U.S or material is somewhat obsolete ,but in comparison to the rest of the world it's still effective material.The E.U should provide IMO for more manpower in the NATO.

Quote[/b] ]I see that NATO has fullfilled its task as a counterpole to warsavpact. I dont see any reason for NATO to exist anymore.

i do not agree.I see NATO as a alliance of country's with Western value's.Maybe we should even expand Nato in to long run to Russia.It's still a very interresting organization to counter the growing pwer of china and the threat of terrorism.

[NurEinMensch 0]

Of course it has to be done, EU is not taken seriously now by the US at all. It has to unite it's forces and especially command/communication in order to work in unisom as a single battle force.

For all the US chaps bitching at EU joining forces, fine, make each of your states have seperate militaries and communication systems which are incompatible with each other in the battlefield.    Come on now, you are the heroes let's see you spilt your army into 30 small ones.  

Excellent topic.

And excellent statement by you bn880.

I voted yes, because I'm very pro EU (surprise surprise), and for the reasons stated by others already.

NATO can only win by haveing a strong EU as a member, the synergetic effects are pretty obvious.

Let the US bitch every time Europe takes integration a step farther.

Maybe the EU-is-teh-sux-faction comes up with an argument?

[Supah 0]

A big fat no from me. Basically we have seen how much trust we should place in franco german promisses after then stability pact thing. They make promisses and keep them as long as its in their best interest. If thats going to be the same with a joint military no thank you. For the Netherlands, being a small country, it would basically entail giving command of our army to berlin (i dont have a problem with that) and paris (big problem there, we have seen their courage and leadershipskills in action before). Basically Germany and France need to learn democracy within the EU and not the "We are bigger, we are the boss". That sort of behaviour will be the death of the EU.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]A big fat no from me. Basically we have seen how much trust we should place in franco german promisses after then stability pact thing. They make promisses and keep them as long as its in their best interest. If thats going to be the same with a joint military no thank you. For the Netherlands, being a small country, it would basically entail giving command of our army to berlin (i dont have a problem with that) and paris (big problem there, we have seen their courage and leadershipskills in action before). Basically Germany and France need to learn democracy within the EU and not the "We are bigger, we are the boss". That sort of behaviour will be the death of the EU.

NATIONALISM ,in a fact ,is truly what limit's the speed of the European unification process.As such ,i do not think in term's of French and German's etc. .I am an European ,and will joyfully assimilate in the E.U ,even if it has short term drawbacks.And even if the French are such "chauvinists" ,wich really is annoying every of it's neighbours know that (i'm Belgian ;) )We just have to change that chauvinism.

The world is globalizing ,it has been for a time now.The E.U is and was simply an answer on that Globalization.in the future world ,and even now ,our devission's will make our weaker in the world.As thus we have seen the unification process from the 50's going at a slow but steady pace ,and it will continue just as such.This is a matter of EVOLUTION ,it's probably unstopable because it has already come so far asside from all the boundaries that it had to breach.

IMO ,we have entered the age of Globalization.

[Supah 0]

NATIONALISM ,in a fact ,is truly what limit's the speed of the European unification process.As such ,i do not think in term's of French and German's etc. .I am an European ,and will joyfully assimilate in the E.U ,even if it has short term drawbacks.

The world is globalizing ,it has been for a time now.The E.U is and was simply an answer on that Globalization.in the future world ,and even now ,our devission's will make our weaker in the world.As thus we have seen the unification process from the 50's going at a slow but steady pace ,and it will continue just as such.This is a matter of EVOLUTION ,it's probably unstopable because it has already come so far asside from all the boundaries that it had to breach.

IMO ,we have entered the age of Globalization.

I have nothing against the french or germans as a people but their government makes and breaks promisses when they desire. If smaller nations complain they are bullied in to changing the rules so they fit the big countries better. That doesnt sound all to democratic to me. We decided on a set of ground rules, the french and german governments of the time signed those and promised to keep them. They are not honoring their promises. That is not a basis for the EU.