Im hit! oh my god i've been hit!

[Drakkhen 0]

You're right... game-play needs not being limpy too.

[SnypaUK 0]

This being knocked out thing adds an interesting potential element to the game. Perhaps if you are knocked out and are evacuated to a field hospital and the conditions were right you could still complete the mission. This would add to the feeling of a soldier in the middle of a big battle. On special ops missions where you are in enemy territory your team would call for a medevac and if it came you could be evacuated to a hospital and you could see like flashes of whats going on like black out when youre hit then it blacks in for a bit to show you being dragged into a helo then blacks out again.

Or if you havent killed enough people you hear that the attack failed and you have to do i again or if they have a dynamic campaign then you lose the sector etc.

[PainDealer 0]

In the same token, then, being shot in the arms or legs, no matter how many times, should not kill you instantaneously - maybe after a while through loss of blood, but not instantaneously...

Actually that can easily happen; the bullet's kinetic force causing a system shock in your body, aka heart failure.

there are some places in your arms and legs where are bigger amounts of blood and bleeding could cause fast blood loss when a bullet crushes its way through.

a heart failure, could be possible but I expect it wouldn't happen if the soldier is in good physical condition. of course there's a possibility of air getting into the blood causing a blast in the heart but the chance must be 1/1000000.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

In the same token, then, being shot in the arms or legs, no matter how many times, should not kill you instantaneously - maybe after a while through loss of blood, but not instantaneously...

Actually that can easily happen; the bullet's kinetic force causing a system shock in your body, aka heart failure.

there are some places in your arms and legs where are bigger amounts of blood and bleeding could cause fast blood loss when a bullet crushes its way through.

a heart failure, could be possible but I expect it wouldn't happen if the soldier is in good physical condition. of course there's a possibility of air getting into the blood causing a blast in the heart but the chance must be 1/1000000.

Even if an artery was hit, there is no way a small calibre round can kill instantaneously by a leg or arm hit. Death might be inevitable, even quite rapid, but NOT instantaneous.

[svendejong 0]

this is one interesting thread!

I hope the guys that made us this very nice game are paying attention to it.

[Drakkhen 0]

Concerning blood loss... I did a while ago a script to simulate that on a unit for a rescue mission (with choppers). So, I played the bleeding man... but the problem with current OFP engine is that when you're hit, you often reach a damage amount close to impossibility to aim/walk, and then bleeding, even slow makes the thing worse.

It's hard to find a correct value for the bleeding amout to have realistic dying times.

Here's the script I did that doesn't force the state too soon and let the guy able 'til the 5 last minutes.

Remove Hint line if you don't want of the time to death pinging. The unit will anyway warn you of his last seconds of life.

To call it just put in the init of the unit you wanna bleed:

[this,0] exec "NameYouGaveToScript.sqs"

(0 is bleeding amount-0=no bleed-10=10mn to death)

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">_me=_this select 0

_bleed=_this select 1

?(_bleed==0):goto "NoBleed"

_s=_bleed mod 1

_m=_bleed-_s

_s=_s*100

_bleed=_s+(_m*60)

_bleed=1/_bleed

#NoBleed

_ostat=getdammage _me

_NotTold=true

_NotTold2=true

#Loop

~1

_stat=getdammage _me

?(_stat<_ostat): _bleed=0

?(_stat>_ostat): _bleed=_bleed+(0.01*(_stat-_ostat)/(1+(random 10)))

_ostat=_stat+_bleed

_me setdammage _ostat

?(_ostat>=1):Exit

?(_bleed==0):goto "Loop"

_m=(1-_ostat)/_bleed

?((_m<30)AND _NotTold):goto "DontLetMeGo"

?((_m<5)AND _NotTold2):goto "ImDying"

#EndSay

_s=_m mod 60

_h=(_m-_s)/60

_s=_s-(_s mod 1)

_m=_h mod 60

_h=(_h-_m)/60

Hint format ["Time to Death: %1h%2'%3''",_h,_m,_s]

goto "Loop"

#DontLetMeGo

_me globalchat "I feel cold... don't let me go"

_NotTold=false

goto "EndSay"

#ImDying

_me globalchat "I'm dying... mm... I'm..."

_NotTold2=false

goto "EndSay"

[jaenak 0]

Three levels of medical care would be awesome but removing them from the battlefield from a game programmer's point of view would only be possible if the event was also joined with a mission failure. And as for wounds, my old man works in a hospital, I can tell you plenty about wounds. (You know you're a medical proffesional if talking about dismemberment around the dinner table is normal.)

Being hit cannot cause heart failure, it can however cause the person to go into shock, and going into shock can and does every now and then kill people depending upon the severity of the shock, but even then its not an instant kill. An air bubble in the blood stream is always a surefire kill, delayed, but surefire. It causes a heart attack. That's how the government kills its laberatory test animals. An air bubble in the blood stream can be caused either by a seringe, compressed air, or theoretically by a severed and exposed vein. Head shots aren't always fatal. They're a whole lot less fatal than people think! Contrary to popular belief, you can take a round square in the forehead and live, and no I'm not talking about an effectual lobotimy. Being hit by a bullet the size of a .22LR can cause the same amount of damage as a .45cal. it all depends on the amount of powder behind the bullet. Many bullets don't simply punch through the target. For an example, an M16 bullet .223 fifty something grain would often times punch into the target in the hip and pop out the opposite shoulder. Reason being is that it would tumble around inside the target tearing everything up. And no, being hit in the arm or leg or even shoulder is NEVER an instant death. In order to be an instant death, you need to be hit either in the head or in the upper chest. And even then, its still never a 100% surefire instant kill. Being hit in the stomach aka lower chest is fatal, but its a slow death. All the others kill by infection or blood loss because flesh wounds in and of themselves are never fatal. The results of fleshwounds (bloodloss and infection) are fatal though.

[PainDealer 0]

You know you're a medical proffesional if talking about dismemberment around the dinner table is normal.

hehe my mom's a nurse I know what you mean

IMO your post contained all the important details about getting hit. anyway, a hit in the lower chest can be very serious but sometimes it's not that bad. it pretty much depends on what particular piece of meat gets in the bullet's way

[jaenak 0]

Yeah, did you ever see rambo #3? The part when he gets a stick shoved through his stomach area on the right side of his belly button from front to back? (or maybe it was the left) He pulled it out, put some gun powder on it, lit it to stop the bleeding and continued on his way. That was fairly accurate because the stomach is in the center of the lower chest and there's nothing on either side of it so as you said, if you get hit there, its just a superficial wound. aka not fatal

[IceFire 0]

Hi everyone, I'm IceFire

Ok, I have one major complaint about something in OPF.

The damage system is too unrealistic.

Come on. We pride ourselves on this realistic game because of it's realism.

But one of the most important things about the realism in the game is very unrealistic.

I'm talking about the need to shoot an enemy soldier on some occasions several times in order to drop them.

Have you ever aimed through the scope of a sniper rifle at a distant running enemy soldier, and then fire and hit him square in the chest only to see him continue running?

I was once hiding around the corner of a building with my glock handgun. A Russian soldier came running by. I aimed, and fired. Each shot connected with him. It took about 5 bullets to kill him. That is absolutely ridiquilous!

Listen, I don't want to hear arguments on bullet calibers and whatnot. In real life, you get shot square in the chest with a .45 or a .22 or an M-16 rifle round, eitherway you are gonna drop.

Remember, these soldiers don't wear any armor or vests except for their helmets.

I have thought about this and have come up with a realistic damage system.

Any shots to the HEAD = DEATH

Any shots to the TORSO(chest, stomach, back) = DEATH

Any shots to the ARMS = Either DEATH or INJURY depending on severity/extent of damage. If the result is injury, that would mean reduced accuracy, stability.

Any shots to the LEGS = Either DEATH or INJURY depending on severity of damage. If the result is injury, the soldier would be forced to crawl. Therefore any damage to the legs would AT LEAST drop the soldier to the ground if not kill him.

Using these guidlines to design the damage model in OPF2 would greatly increase the realism of the game.

The player would not have to shoot the enemy so much to kill him. This would mean much more realistic firefights. And much greater care in avoiding getting shot.

That wouln't be bad at all. I remember many, even most missions where I never took any shots.

One would be able to better use surprise, and much quicker overwhelm a vulnerable enemy or group of enemies.

Think about this and tell me what you think.

Thanks

IceFire

[PainDealer 0]

I agree with the head shot. but as stated earlier all the hits in chest aren't fatal. to make it more realistic we need bleeding...bleeding...bleeding...bleeding...bleeding... you feel yourself tired...bleeding...bleeding...*snap* you're asleep and totally under my command. bleeding...bleeding... ah hell that doesn't work

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Hi everyone, I'm IceFire

Ok, I have one major complaint about something in OPF.

The damage system is too unrealistic.

Come on.  We pride ourselves on this realistic game because of it's realism.

But one of the most important things about the realism in the game is very unrealistic.

No it isn't.

From what experience do you speak?  Or have you just watched too many films?

Quote[/b] ]

I'm talking about the need to shoot an enemy soldier on some occasions several times in order to drop them.

Have you ever aimed through the scope of a sniper rifle at a distant running enemy soldier, and then fire and hit him square in the chest only to see him continue running?

I was once hiding around the corner of a building with my glock handgun.  A Russian soldier came running by.  I aimed, and fired.  Each shot connected with him.   It took about 5 bullets to kill him.   That is absolutely ridiquilous!

Listen, I don't want to hear arguments on bullet calibers and whatnot.  In real life, you get shot square in the chest with a .45 or a .22 or an M-16 rifle round, eitherway you are gonna drop.

No, you do not.  You are the one talking unrealistic stuff.

Quote[/b] ]

Remember, these soldiers don't wear any armor or vests except for their helmets.

1) Yes they do, some of them

2) Irregardless, not all shots to the chest are fatal -  given that a grazing shot in OFP will do the same damage as a shot going right through where the heart would be.

Quote[/b] ]

I have thought about this and have come up with a realistic damage system.

Think some more.

Quote[/b] ]

 Any shots to the HEAD = DEATH

 

 Any shots to the TORSO(chest, stomach, back) = DEATH

TOTALLY unrealistic.

Quote[/b] ]

 Any shots to the ARMS = Either DEATH or INJURY depending on severity/extent of damage.  If the result is injury, that would mean reduced accuracy, stability.

Also totally unrealistic.  Read the earlier posts in this thread.

Quote[/b] ]

  Any shots to the LEGS = Either DEATH or INJURY depending on severity of damage.  If the result is injury, the soldier would be forced to crawl.   Therefore any damage to the legs would AT LEAST drop the soldier to the ground if not kill him.

Using these guidlines to design the damage model in OPF2 would greatly REDUCE the realism of the game.

The player would not have to shoot the enemy so much to kill him.    This would mean much more realistic firefights.  And much greater care in avoiding getting shot.  

That wouln't be bad at all.  I remember many, even most missions where I never took any shots.  

One would be able to better use surprise, and much quicker overwhelm a vulnerable enemy or group of enemies.

Think about this and tell me what you think.

Thanks

IceFire

Bad, bad ideas based on nonsense from movies.  Not realistic at all.

[IceFire 0]

Bad ideas based on MOVIES??

How is dying if you get shot in the chest unrealistic??

Believe it or not, if you get shot in the chest you will no longer be able to function at the very least. Even if you survived you would not be able to function for a long time atleast.

Your comparison of my system and movies are contradictory.

In movies, the hero or villain generally takes several bulllets and still lives. That is movie drama, ... the opposite of what I am suggesting.

In real life if one is shot, they are either going to die, or will need to be immediately be sent to a hospital in order to save their lives.

I think YOU are the one who watches too many movies. What's wrong with you?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Bad ideas based on MOVIES??

How is dying if you get shot in the chest unrealistic??

Believe it or not, if you get shot in the chest you will no longer be able to function at the very least.   Even if you survived you would not be able to function for a long time atleast.

Your comparison of my system and movies are contradictory.

In movies, the hero or villain generally takes several bulllets and still lives.  That is movie drama, ... the opposite of what I am suggesting.

In real life if one is shot, they are either going to die, or will need to be immediately be sent to a hospital in order to save their lives.    

I think YOU are the one who watches too many movies.    What's wrong with you?

Believe it or not, not every single shot will go through the heart or lungs.

Believe it or not, not every chest shot is fatal.

Believe it or not, a shot that only just scrapes the surface of the skin, or even doesn't touch the skin, just through the clothes, will be counted as a 'chest shot' by a game.

That doesn't mean that any soldier should *count on* surviving a chest shot - just that there could be a small chance of surviving it - like in OFP just now.

Theres nothing wrong with how it is.

It could be made more detailed in OFP2 - gradual loss of blood leading to death, etc - but as it is, with choices of injured or dead, its fine.

[IceFire 0]

Yes, but in OPF you can shoot an enemy straight in the chest and he will continue to actively run or fight.

And the number of times you hit an enemy in the chest in that good general area greatly outnumbers the seldom occasions where you "graze" an enemy or have the bullet grazing his shirt.

Why should they have a system that benefits these rare instances of grazing as opposed to what happens more often in most firefights? Which is to shoot the enemy several times to kill them.

[Frisbee 0]

Dunno about you,but i hit an enemy two times in the chest and he drops,90% certain.

If i snipe with the M21 and get a headshot,it's mostly another surefire kill,maybe excepting the 1% that somehow still run on.

Bleeding and incapacitation would be nice,but the ofp damage system is very good already imho.

Though the pistols might need some powering up,but i don't use pistols often so i'm not sure.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Yes, but in OPF you can shoot an enemy straight in the chest and he will continue to actively run or fight.

And the number of times you hit an enemy in the chest in that good general area greatly outnumbers the seldom occasions where you "graze" an enemy or have the bullet grazing his shirt.

Why should they have a system that benefits these rare instances of grazing as opposed to what happens more often in most firefights?  Which is to shoot the enemy several times to kill them.

The amount of times in OFP I have to hit an enemy twice in the chest to kill them are very, very, very small. You're probably hitting the arms.

[PainDealer 0]

I gotta agree a little with IceFire. If someone gets hit in the chest it's damn sure he won't be running around full speed. and I think crawling would be very painful too.

[Impavido 0]

I'll have to voice a dissenting opinion. I've heard some directly from war veterans that they had seen or they themselves had been hit by a bullet and didnt instantly notice. Adrenaline is a pretty good pain killer.

One story is of a guy in Vietnam getting shot and still running 500 yards under fire, before he even noticed that he had been hit.

Another example is the XO from my NROTC Unit in college. He was a Marine Scout Sniper who had survived being STABBED with a KNIFE TWICE. (We never asked what happened to the NVA/VC who stabbed him...we assumed he didnt come out of the ordeal alive like our XO)

When under great stress and pumpin adrenaline, the human body can take a lot more punishment than many believe. Granted these cases are pretty rare, but then again...the instances in which I nail a guy on OFP in the chest or head with a powerful gun and he lives dont seem to be terrbily comon either. I see no problem with the basic level of damage that a person can take in the current version of OFP. I especially dont mind when IM the guy who survives a direct hit...throws in a little bit of chance to survival. I like it. Maybe you can find cyber-god in your cyber-soldier survives that cyber-war.

[PainDealer 0]

but you're actually still gonna bleed (at least in most cases) when you get hit. and those shots/stabs whatever you described must have been in a not so quite deadly area.

[Impavido 0]

DUDE, my XO's knife wounds punctured his lung and the other is in the dead center of his sternum! He barely made it back to a helicopter pickup. But he was able to walk 2 miles with those wounds because he had some cloth stuffed in his wounds to slow bleeding.

Like I said at the begining of this topic...you should be at a risk of death from blood loss from a serious wound. And bleeding should be slowable or stopable by a medic character.

[PainDealer 0]

well I take back a few words but without a medic he would have died am I right?

[Impavido 0]

Yes if he hadn't been picked up and been taken to a Navy hospital he would have died, that was almost guranteed.  But my point is that adrenaline can keep you running long enough to survive, fight back...or...well..get shot again...

I was in a severe boating accident as a kid.  An ingnorant and intoxicated driver ran over me  The propeller hit my right leg and gave my chest some good cuts.  WHen I was pulled out of the water my leg bent at the thigh as if I had 2 knees.  I screamed, not out of pain but out of the sheer terror of seeing my leg like that.  This might not be war related, but I didnt feel the pain in my leg for a good 30 minutes after being run over by a speed boat.  So I find it very possible and believable that a soldier in the stress of combat can even NOT NOTICE that he had been hit for a few moments.  

But as in the case of my XO and many soldiers, he would have died had he not gotten to a hospital.  But thats irrelevant to OFP and OFP2.  If a soldier under fire can occassionally survive a direct hit and still walk or fight, it's cool with me.  Granted his moments would be ticking away in real life, which is why I think it would be cool to add bleeding to the game.  A touch of realism and put some real drama and excitement into the game.

Say you just so happen to be one of the really lucky adrenaline pumped bastards who survives a direct hit. You're pinned down in a hiding spot, bleeding.  you've got 3-4 minutes tops.   Lets hope you team and medic have the guts for the challenge.   Wow...that sounds so exciting I think I'm going to go eat some cheez-its to celebrate!

Cheez-its:The best Video gaming snack EVER!

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

But as in the case of my XO and many soldiers, he would have died had he not gotten to a hospital. But thats irrelevant to OFP and OFP2. If a soldier under fire can occassionally survive a direct hit and still walk or fight, it's cool with me. Granted his moments would be ticking away in real life, which is why I think it would be cool to add bleeding to the game. A touch of realism and put some real drama and excitement into the game.

Say you just so happen to be one of the really lucky adrenaline pumped bastards who survives a direct hit. You're pinned down in a hiding spot, bleeding. you've got 3-4 minutes tops. Lets hope you team and medic have the guts for the challenge.

Yes, that's exactly my point.

They might die eventually from blood loss, but shots to areas other than heart/ brain do not usually kill instantly, so the way it is in OFP is fine, and if in OFP2 thats extended to having blood loss over time leading to death that would be better

[PainDealer 0]

if they do it in a good way yes but I hope we won't be seeing bloodloss kills cos someone had a scratch on his finger