War against terror

[iNeo 0]

So we and Norwegians would have had every righ to do the same, hypotetically, to Swedish kids while living under your occupation for centuries?

I'm not saying it's "right," just saying I'd do whatever it takes if I was in the same situation the Chechnyans (sp..?) are; it's not like killing Russian children was the Chechnyans first method of fighting back.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not saying it's "right," just saying I'd do whatever it takes if I was in the same situation the Chechnyans

So you approve of their actions or anybody else's action who is in same postion. That pretty much makes it right in your view, doesn't it?  So basically, in your opinion, using children as bargaining chips in war is perfectly acceptable 

Some people would consider that pretty sick, like those Chechens who support independence but not criminal acts.

[iNeo 0]

So basically, in your opinion, using children as bargaining chips in war is perfectly acceptable

Is exaggerating funny?

I reckon that centuries of suppression call for drastic measures to prove your dissatisfaction and to call for attention from the world around you.

The whole conflict could easily be solved by giving Chechnya the independence they want, anyway.

[Guest]

So we and Norwegians would have had every righ to do the same, hypotetically, to Swedish kids while living under your occupation for centuries?  

I'm not saying it's "right," just saying I'd do whatever it takes if I was in the same situation the Chechnyans (sp..?) are; it's not like killing Russian children was the Chechnyans first method of fighting back.

I agree with iNeo. When they sieged the school, everyone screamed "no mercy for all chechen rebels" (I'll call them rebels, because you're not a terrorist if you fight for the freedom of your country). I thought, what the fuck, you all don't even know where Chechnya is.

Most of my friends thought I was crazy, when I said that I can understand the reasons of the Chechens to siege a school. I am interested in modern war's for years, since a few months especially for the Chechen Conflict. The more I read about thee Chechen Conflict, the more I get convinced that they don't fight because Russia is a danger. They fight because they wanted freedom, but they got slaughtered.

You don't have much choice when you see your sister getting raped, your brother burned alive and your father hanged? Some people always have an opinion without even knowing enough about it. Things like what happened during that siege, was already done by the Russians in the past ten years.

I think that the media should have more points of view. I do not say that the Chechens did right (siege), but I understand for what they're fighting.

[BoweryBaker 0]

Quote[/b] ]iNeo Posted on Oct. 14 2004,19:03

The whole conflict could easily be solved by giving Chechnya the independence they want, anyway.

 I've often thought that myself.  I'm willing to hear the opposition to that. Any takers?

[Tovarish 0]

Quote[/b] ]iNeo Posted on Oct. 14 2004,19:03

The whole conflict could easily be solved by giving Chechnya the independence they want, anyway.

 I've often thought that myself.  I'm willing to hear the opposition to that.  Any takers?

*sigh* They HAD independence, and then they decided to bomb Moscow and invade Dagestan...let me guess, you all think Putin did it, just like the Israelis were behind 9/11

[BoweryBaker 0]

I just thought that they were one day all russia, then one day they once again went for it to be independent again, and russia got pissed and came after them guys.  Then once russia came, they did it all wrong and chechnya got pissed, then chechnya started acting like terrorists.  That's what i got from the sites ive checked, i might still have a link.  Let me see....READ!  I have a hard time believing you.  The chechens are fighting specifically for independence, if they had it, what were they so angry about?

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Jordan 'ghost' jail 'is holding senior al-Qa'eda leaders'

By Inigo Gilmore in Jerusalem and Robin Gedye Foreign Affairs Writer

(Filed: 14/10/2004)

The most senior Muslim terrorists so far captured by the United States are being held in an ultra-secret "ghost" prison in Jordan run by the CIA, according to a report published yesterday by a respected security expert.

The article in the Israeli daily Haaretz appears to answer one of the mysteries of the war on terrorism: what has happened to the senior leaders of al-Qa'eda and associated organisations captured by US forces during the past three years.

The base is beyond the reach of the American courts, which is likely to be one of its principal attractions.

The article was written by Yossi Melman, who is considered a leading authority on intelligence and has a wide network of contacts in the Israeli and American security establishments.

He did not specify an exact location for the prison, but said at least 11 senior al-Qa'eda and other militant leaders were being held in Jordan.

Quoting "international intelligence sources", the report said the CIA's prisoners at the facility included Three of the terrorist movement 's most senior figures, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and Riduan Isamuddin.

"Their detention outside the US enables CIA interrogators to apply interrogation methods banned by US law, and to do so in a country where co-operation with the Americans is particularly close, thereby reducing the danger of leaks," Mr Melman wrote.

There was no immediate comment from officials in Jordan, which is seen as a key ally in the war on terrorism. The US embassy in Jordan denied the report.

Washington's courting of the Jordanian monarchy, regarded by the State Department as one of the Middle East's most moderate governments, was pursued with remarkable success under the 47-year reign of King Hussein and has continued with hardly a cross word under his son and successor, King Abdullah.

Mordechai Kedar, of Bar Ilan University, a Middle East expert who spent 25 years with Israeli military intelligence, said the story was highly credible. "Yossi Melman is well woven into intelligence circles and has good access to intelligence information and he bases his reports on hard-core information," he said.

"This sounds reasonable, logical, and there is an historical basis too because of the long-standing hatred between the Hashemite kingdom and Wahhabis [hardline Muslims], who are seen as running al-Qa'eda.

"The Hashemite kingdom is in the pocket of the Bush administration and Jordan offers a calm environment compared to Iraq, even Egypt, and it is weak enough that reasonable pressure could have convinced the Hashemite kingdom to host such a thing. I doubt the Egyptians would have agreed, not to mention the Saudis. Where else in the Arab world would it have been possible to have such a thing?"

Since the invasion of Afghanistan three years ago, the location of America's most prized prisoners has been the subject of endless speculation but little hard information. It has been suspected that some of the world's most dangerous terrorists were kept on US territories in the Pacific, or aboard naval vessels.

Egypt and Jordan have both been named as possible holding centres or staging posts, and the al-Jafr prison in Jordan's southern desert has been described as a suspected CIA detention centre.

International human rights groups have accused America of circumventing US law and international guidelines on interrogation by shipping al-Qa'eda suspects to allied states where legal scrutiny is lax. The existence of suspected secret facilities has also caused deep unease in the US Congress.

A report on these so-called ghost prisoners, issued on Tuesday by Human Rights Watch claimed that they were being held somewhere so secret that President George W Bush had asked the CIA not to tell him where it was.

Most of the al-Qa'eda detainees arrested in Afghanistan were transferred to the US base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but according to the report some were held in Pakistan before being moved to Jordan.

Human Rights Watch reported that America is holding prisoners in more than 24 secret detention centres, of which "at least half operate in total secrecy".

Senator John McCain, a Republican who was imprisoned and tortured by the North Vietnamese, has described the "situation with the CIA and ghost detainees [as] beginning to look like a bad movie".

The CIA is prohibited from conducting operations in the United States. America describes the system of transferring prisoners in secret from one country to another as "extraordinary rendition."

In the year after the September attacks George Tenet, the then director of the CIA, admitted to the "rendition" of 70 people he described as terrorists.

Nice way of bypassing the human rights laws.....

(I know something similar has already been posted but this is more indepth)

Souce:Daily Telegraph (need to be registered to view the article, source link is just for verification purposes.)

[Tovarish 0]

I just thought that they were one day all russia, then one day they once again went for it to be independent again, and russia got pissed and came after them guys.  Then once russia came, they did it all wrong and chechnya got pissed, then chechnya started acting like terrorists.  That's what i got from the sites ive checked, i might still have a link.  Let me see....READ!  I have a hard time believing you.  The chechens are fighting specifically for independence, if they had it, what were they so angry about?

The first war against chechnya was unjustified IMO, it lasted from 1994-1996, and at the end Russia pulled out and Chechnya had defacto independence. All good eh? they had independece, so surely averyone would live happily ever after as you say? Not so - in 1999, Chechen terrorist bombs in Moscow leveled a few appartment buildings, and the Chechens invaded Dagestan, looking to make their lovely islamic fundamentalist country bigger. So should they be left alone till they decide to bomb Moscow again? No! Do you think that a group that's so cozy with Al-Qaeda only wants independence?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nice way of bypassing the human rights laws.....

You hear about some of people you were release from gitmo and restarted their activities again....

Quote[/b] ]Ex-Gitmo Thugs At It Again

By Niles Lathem

WASHINGTON — Twelve men recently released from the terrorist prison at Guantanamo Bay were involved in carrying out attacks on U.S. military and coalition targets in Afghanistan, the Pentagon said yesterday.

The Defense Department released the figures in the wake of reports that a former Guantanamo prisoner, "Commander" Abdullah Mehsud, who has forged ties with al Qaeda since his release, now leads a group whose members have strapped explosives on two Chinese engineers they kidnapped near the Afghanistan border.

Pentagon spokesman Lt. Commander Alvin Plexico said the United States knows of at five released detainees who have "returned to the battlefield," and said that there are uncorroborated reports that another seven "have participated in attacks or provided support to anti-coalition forces in Afghanistan."

One released prisoner killed an Afghan judge leaving a mosque and another was recaptured firing on U.S. forces during a raid on a suspected training camp.

Two other freed detainees were killed in action during battles against U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

"Reports of previously transferred detainees returning to al Qaeda and the Taliban is further evidence that these individuals are dedicated to their cause and have been trained to be deceptive," Plexico said.

"From the beginning, we recognized the assessment process is not risk-free. There are inherent risks in transferring detainees for release."

The United States has released 202 prisoners from Guantanamo.

In Pakistan, local leaders are trying to negotiate the release of the two Chinese, who were building a dam when they were kidnapped Saturday by terrorists led by the one-legged Mehsud.

Mehsud, 28, who calls himself "Commander Abdullah," returned to Pakistan in March after about two years' detention at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He had been captured by U.S.-allied Afghan forces in December 2001 while fighting for the Taliban, Pakistani officials said.

It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud.

[Pathy 0]

And that means your allowed to lock them up with no human rights exactly how?

[BoweryBaker 0]

@Tovarish: No, they want world domination I suppose, if what you say is true.  It kind of seems like modern american policy though, spreading democracy.  An interesting quote from Bill Maher would be, now this isn't totally spot on but I was watching the show last night and he said something like, "Maybe they are fighting for the right to rule according to their religion and don't want to see their sister walking down the street in a mini skirt."  The way things are going with American culture, and you look at the self respecting culture of women in the arab culture and you see a major difference.  I'm a christian and have my own values but even i know how to learn from people different than me.  If not I'd be ethnocentric or some other centric.  I'm not promoting any certain type of government, I'm just saying I understand what they want, and as long as what we're getting what we want the way we're getting it, they're going to get it the same way and apparently thats by force.  Everybody appreciates security and good health, but that freedom we're pushing noone trusts.  Especially the way we're pushing it.  We should offer a different way of life, rather than push it on people.  People know they're free to come to America for to live like us, some want to come but can't due to either financial concerns or other responsibilities, its not our job to crush their government to assist them.  Especially with the economic problems we're having, we could be making money somehow, minus slavery of course.  That's a must.  I'm saying though America must go the extra mile to help people minus violence, like set up teaching schools in foreign countries training people the steps it takes to live here, and perhaps at graduation setting them up with a job so that they can come.  There's plenty of land to irrigate in the west that people could live in.  A school and a job already set up to help people arrive legally would mean they can actually monitor who comes in the country.  Set up a school like this in every country and boom there you go.  Ideas like this, however, are useless in the hands of men like me who have no resources, so ill let you of the international community with persuasion and power to use this idea for the benefit of us all.  Who cares....

This has been Bowery, your future presidential candidate.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s funny that they are even not allowed to have their role in court sessions about 9/11. The lack of cooperation of USA services made the court session about 9/11 in germany blow.

Great work !

The victims of 9/11 are extremely thankful....

[vektorboson 8]

Quote[/b] ]

It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud.

Well, they released him, to tell the world afterwards that those people who are inprisoned in Guantanamo Bay are indeed Terrorists and Taliban.

But hell, if the US imprisoned me in Guantanamo, ignoring human rights and the geneva convention, without any court, then I for sure would turn into a terrorist.

[Balschoiw 0]

Have you already seen pics from the cemetery at Guantanamo ?

It´s not that no people die there...

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]

It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud.

Well, they released him, to tell the world afterwards that those people who are inprisoned in Guantanamo Bay are indeed Terrorists and Taliban.

But hell, if the US imprisoned me in Guantanamo, ignoring human rights and the geneva convention, without any court, then I for sure would turn into a terrorist.

Yes i think i would also leave with a deep loathing of the US....

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Have you already seen pics from the cemetery at Guantanamo ?

It´s not that no people die there...

Please post links... Yahoo! News has nothing and the first couple of page of the seach has nothing on it...   Also, gitmo has a cemetery that is very old....

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Please post links... Yahoo! News has nothing and the first couple of page of the seach has nothing on it...  

Oh really ?!?

That surprises me, NOT.

What do you think ? They are running around allowing the journalists on a guided tour to take pics of them ?

Funny you...

Satellite images of Gitmo show graves that are not ancient. Satellite images show pics of a graveyard that is pretty fresh. If you know how to read satellite images you know that you can estimate when the soil was moved.

Quote[/b] ]Also, gitmo has a cemetery that is very old....

Link, source , proof ?

Edit: If you googled a bit before billybobbing again, you would have found out that at least 19 people have died at Guantanamo. Not in the last century, but within the last 2 years.

[Pathy 0]

Hmm i wonder what they claim the cause of death is

[Balschoiw 0]

Natural death of course

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Link, source , proof ?

http://www.nsgtmo.navy.mil/gazette/History_98-64/hischp11.htm

Look under medical.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....pped_24

Quote[/b] ]

Chinese Hostage Killed in Pakistan Raid

19 minutes ago World - AP Asia

By MUNIR AHMAD, Associated Press Writer

CHAGMALAI, Pakistan - Pakistani special forces attacked kidnappers holding two Chinese engineers near the Afghan border on Thursday, killing all five of the al-Qaida-linked militants, who were followers of a former Guantanamo Bay prisoner. One of the hostages was killed in the raid, while the other survived.

Security forces later launched a manhunt for the militants' leader, Abdullah Mehsud, who was believed hiding in mountains while his men held the hostages for six days in the nearby village of Chagmalai, officials said.

"The masterminds behind this terrorist action will be pursued relentlessly and meted out the most severe punishment," President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said.

Commandos raided a house where the militants were holding the hostages after shots were heard coming from inside, Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said.

"This raised fears that the kidnappers had started violence against the Chinese," he said. "The security forces then stormed and killed all five kidnappers and freed the Chinese."

However, resident Abid Mehsud told The Associated Press that dozens of special forces soldiers, disguised as local tribesmen, surrounded the mud-brick house and opened fire when three of the kidnappers came outside to talk on a two-way radio.

The troops then lobbed a tear gas grenade into the house and one of the Chinese hostages ran out and made it to safety. The two surviving militants then emerged, holding the other Chinese man in front of them.

"The troops fired at them and they all fell to the ground," Abid Mehsud said, though he added it was not clear whether the soldiers' fire had killed the hostage, or whether the militants had shot him.

Ahmed said the kidnappers had shot the Chinese man, Wang Peng.

China's state-run Xinhua news agency said the survivor, Wang Ende, had been taken to the Chinese Embassy in Islamabad.

Mehsud, 28, returned to Pakistan in March after about two years' detention at the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Pakistan officials say he has forged ties with al-Qaida since then.

It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud, who has used an artificial leg since losing one to a land mine while fighting for the Taliban. He became a rebel leader when he returned to South Waziristan, and has opposed Pakistani forces that are hunting al-Qaida fighters in the semiautonomous area.

The News daily paper in Islamabad said Tuesday that Mehsud has become "a hero to anti-U.S. fighters active in both Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Pakistan."

Pakistan's military has staged a series of offensives this year targeting al-Qaida fighters in the region and claims to have broken up several terrorist hideouts and training camps. The fighting has killed dozens of militants, soldiers and civilians.

The house where the gunbattle occurred was littered with empty water bottles and food packages. The ground was stained with blood.

The raid came after two rounds of talks between tribal elders and Mehsud collapsed.

Hours before the operation, Mehsud spoke to the kidnappers by radio from a remote hideout near Chagmalai. Wearing a white turban and camouflage jacket over a rust-colored tunic, he was guarded by two turbaned men armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles.

Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan told AP that soldiers attacked the kidnappers "only after Mehsud and his men refused to release" the Chinese.

He said the bodies of the kidnappers were taken to a military base to confirm their identity and nationality. Two were believed to be foreigners, he said.

The Chinese were abducted Saturday along with their Pakistani driver and security guard. The militants freed the Pakistanis an hour before Thursday's attack.

The kidnappers initially told the government they wanted to trade the hostages for foreign militants captured by the army during a recent military operation against al-Qaida fighters in South Waziristan.

China, a longtime ally of Pakistan and its main supplier of weapons, had condemned the abductions as a terrorist act. The killing of the engineer was not expected to affect relations.

Musharraf promised to improve security for other Chinese working in the country.

The engineers were among between dozens of Chinese who have been working for a Chinese state-owned company at the Gomal Zam dam, about 210 miles southwest of Islamabad.

........

Quote[/b] ]Edit: If you googled a bit before billybobbing again, you would have found out that at least 19 people have died at Guantanamo. Not in the last century, but within the last 2 years.

Cannot find it.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Look under medical.

Did so.

Quote[/b] ]Records indicate that all human remains on the Base now rest in the Naval Cemetery at Cuzco Beach

It´s outside the prison camp

How can there be graves within the Halliburton / KBR built compound then ?

Quote[/b] ]Cannot find it.

Not my problem.

[billybob2002 0]

Another asshole opens his mouth...

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/1014krs14-ON.html

Quote[/b] ]

Rapper: Blacks 'cheered when 9-11 happened'

Knight Ridder Newspapers

Oct. 14, 2004 03:08 PM

If Osama bin Laden ever buys a rap album, he'll probably start with a CD by KRS-One.

The hip-hop anarchist has declared his solidarity with al-Qaida by asserting that he and other African-Americans "cheered when 9-11 happened," reports the New York Daily News.

The rapper, real name Kris Parker, defiled the memory of those who died in the terrorist attacks as he spouted off at a recent New Yorker Festival panel discussion.

"I say that proudly," the Boogie Down Productions founder went on, insisting that, before the attack, security guards kept Blacks out of the World Trade Center "because of the way we talk and dress.

"So when the planes hit the building, we were like, 'Mmmm - justice.' "

The atrocity of 9-11 "doesn't affect us the hip-hop community," he said. "9-11 happened to them, not us," he added, explaining that by "them" he meant "the rich ... those who are oppressing us. RCA or BMG, Universal, the radio stations."

Parker also sneered at efforts by other rappers to get young people to vote.

"Voting in a corrupt society adds more corruption," he added. "America has to commit suicide if the world is to be a better place."

[Acecombat 0]

Poor guy trying to say something for a good cause yet he doesnt know how to go through with it.

I can imagine being discriminated is no fun. That guys got less brains but still i think hes trying to say that since we werent allowed in the 'Towers' its good they went down , he isnt talking about innocent peoples death in that tradegy. His focus are the towers.

[BoweryBaker 0]

lol. I laughed when I read that. LOL. "Mmmm-justice."~KRS-ONE. LOL. But ummm, shoot, maybe America really ought to look at itself and why Al Qaeda struck, maybe KRS sees something America ought to change, but he feels like the rest of us in that we can't change nothing, but Al Qaeda can. LOL. Maybe Capitol Hill had better start listening. That's why I want Kerry in office. He'll actually listen to the people and other nations. I don't know....you got to look at why Al Qaeda struck. Once again, my first reaction to the strike was "Huh! America was attacked?!" Then I raced to the tv in the lobby of the college after my professor said "you don't know whats going on do you?" and i watched and sat long enough to see the second one hit a little later. I didn't cry though but there were some people who were. I thought something was up cuz when I got on the bus, people were all sad n what not and it was like that everywhere taking multiple buses through the city to get to college.