War against terror

[SFWanabe 0]

Dont our freedoms belong to us (Americans)?

I thought they were "unalienable human rights"? In any case, due process of law stipulates access to lawyers, no lenthy jail terms without hearing, etc. etc.

So what seperates us from Saddam if we can hold our "enemies" for no reason, as long as we want, and do what we want with them?

Well people who try to destroy our freedom dont deserve to benifit from our rights if you ask me. Also from what I heard most of these guys were captured fighting US and allied forces so they are not innocent. As for Saddam well everyone knows how many innocent people he killed.

[EiZei 0]

Dont our freedoms belong to us (Americans)?

I thought they were "unalienable human rights"? In any case, due process of law stipulates access to lawyers, no lenthy jail terms without hearing, etc. etc.

So what seperates us from Saddam if we can hold our "enemies" for no reason, as long as we want, and do what we want with them?

Well people who try to destroy our freedom dont deserve to benifit from our rights if you ask me. Also from what I heard most of these guys were captured fighting US and allied forces so they are not innocent. As for Saddam well everyone knows how many innocent people he killed.

So you believe that they do not deserve due process despite what the constitution clearly says about this?

[SFWanabe 0]

Dont our freedoms belong to us (Americans)?

I thought they were "unalienable human rights"? In any case, due process of law stipulates access to lawyers, no lenthy jail terms without hearing, etc. etc.

So what seperates us from Saddam if we can hold our "enemies" for no reason, as long as we want, and do what we want with them?

Well people who try to destroy our freedom dont deserve to benifit from our rights if you ask me. Also from what I heard most of these guys were captured fighting US and allied forces so they are not innocent. As for Saddam well everyone knows how many innocent people he killed.

So you believe that they do not deserve due process despite what the constitution clearly says about this?

No I dont,because if they are there they are there for a reason. And that reason is they tried and failed to destroy my freedom,my family's freedom,and the freedom for all americans. People like that dont have any rights in my book.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well people who try to destroy our freedom dont deserve to benifit from our rights if you ask me.

Great. But there is nothing to prove that they were trying to destroy freedoms, yours or anyone elses.

Quote[/b] ]Also from what I heard most of these guys were captured fighting US and allied forces so they are not innocent.

"You heard" doesn't really cut it. By that logic I could go kill my neighbor because "I heard" he might be planning to do the same to me.

Quote[/b] ]No I dont,because if they are there they are there for a reason. And that reason is they tried and failed to destroy my freedom,my family's freedom,and the freedom for all americans. People like that dont have any rights in my book.

What was the number? 500+ detainees. How many tried? 4 or so?

I assume you have heard the numerous stories and seen the articles detailing foreign nationals who were held at Guantanamo for a year or more, and then released. They were never charged with anything.

So you think the US has the right to imprison any one it feels like, for any reason, and at any time?

I thought we were spreading "freedom and democracy," not taking it away?

You have no evidence one way or the other whether the people there have done anything except for the word of an administration that has already lied numerous times to get what they want.

[miles teg 1]

No I dont,because if they are there they are there for a reason. And that reason is they tried and failed to destroy my freedom,my family's freedom,and the freedom for all americans. People like that dont have any rights in my book.

Dude...thats ironic that you're saying that when earlier you complained how you were wrongly incarcerated for 6 months in prison for something you did not do.  Well guess what.. alot of those terrorists you speak of who you believe tried to take away your freedom (freedom of what? please explain) were picked up in broad sweeps or were detained because someone accused them of being a terrorist.  If you thought 6 months was bad, imagine your whole life incarcerated for something that you may not have done or had very little to do with and on top of that facing very brutal interrogations constantly along with abuse from guards (of coarse serious human rights violations happen in US prisons also, but that's for another thread).  Also, many of them are simply COMBATANTS/guerilla fighters who most likely were not planning to go blow up civilian targets in the United States, but rather believed they were fighting infidel invaders.  

So again please explain to me how they were trying to take away your freedom?  

Hey, the police catch people all the time suspected of "trying to take away your freedom" in the form of criminal activity.  Hey they were caught for a damn good reason!!!  Should they lose all rights to a fair trial?   If not then what makes a captured suspected militant any better then a suspected murderer who just happens to be an American citizen by virtue of birth?  Should a man, who for example may have been fighting American soldiers for revenge (because a family member was killed by a US bomb or bullet), be tried as a murderer?   Shouldn't he be given the right to defend himself in court and explain himself if indeed he was fighting US forces?

Now... when it comes to a known terrorist who we KNOW and have overwhelming evidence that he/she was involved in a terrorist plot to kill civilians either abroad or here in the United States, then the evidence should stand on its own.  

Whatever the case, torturing any prisoners now gives legitimate cause for other countries in future wars to do the same to our soldiers if they are captured.   You may think that this is bullshit in all guerilla wars, but in fact captured pilot Michael Durant in Somalia for example was overall treated well and in accorance to the Geneva Convention once he was in captivity and away from the mobs.  But the chances of that ever happening to captured US military personnel in Iraq is pretty slim due to the extreme anger in the Islamic world over the treatment of Muslim prisoners captured during the War on Terror.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif[/img])]

No I dont,because if they are there they are there for a reason. And that reason is they tried and failed to destroy my freedom,my family's freedom,and the freedom for all americans. People like that dont have any rights in my book.

Dude...thats ironic that you're saying that when earlier you complained how you were wrongly incarcerated for 6 months in prison for something you did not do. Well guess what.. alot of those terrorists you speak of who you believe tried to take away your freedom (freedom of what? please explain) were picked up in broad sweeps or were detained because someone accused them of being a terrorist. If you thought 6 months was bad, imagine your whole life incarcerated for something that you may not have done or had very little to do with and on top of that facing very brutal interrogations constantly along with abuse from guards (of coarse serious human rights violations happen in US prisons also, but that's for another thread). Also, many of them are simply COMBATANTS/guerilla fighters who most likely were not planning to go blow up civilian targets in the United States, but rather believed they were fighting infidel invaders.

So again please explain to me how they were trying to take away your freedom?

Hey, the police catch people all the time suspected of "trying to take away your freedom" in the form of criminal activity. Hey they were caught for a damn good reason!!! Should they lose all rights to a fair trial? If not then what makes a captured suspected militant any better then a suspected murderer who just happens to be an American citizen by virtue of birth? Should a man, who for example may have been fighting American soldiers for revenge (because a family member was killed by a US bomb or bullet), be tried as a murderer? Shouldn't he be given the right to defend himself and explain himself if indeed he was fighting US forces?

Now... when it comes to a known terrorist who we KNOW and have overwhelming evidence that he/she was involved in a terrorist plot to kill civilians either abroad or here in the United States, then the evidence should stand on its own.

Whatever the case, torturing any prisoners now gives legitimate cause for other countries in future wars to do the same to our soldiers if they are captured. You may think that this is bullshit in all guerilla wars, but in fact captured pilot Michael Durant in Somalia for example was overall treated well and in accorance to the Geneva Convention once he was in captivity and away from the mobs. But the chances of that ever happening to captured US military personnel in Iraq is pretty slim due to the extreme anger in the Islamic world over the treatment of Muslim prisoners captured during the War on Terror.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

The musilum population in the middle east is not 500 so these men are most likely guilty and if they arent then I fell sorry for them. I wasnt wrongfully inprisoned because it is a crime to be inside a stolen car wheather you know it or not. Also the USA is not the only one who has inprisoned people under these conditons. Israel has done alot worse than the USA when it comes to PLA and other captured terrorists.

[miles teg 1]

WHAT???? What do you mean their population isn't 500 so they're automatically guilty??? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Are you saying that all Muslims are terrorists automatically? If so then we should kill every last one of them including every Muslim woman and children and all those here in the US also unless you want to house and feed a prison population of billions.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

WHAT???? What do you mean their population isn't 500 so they're automatically guilty??? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Are you saying that all Muslims are terrorists automatically? If so then we should kill every last one of them including every Muslim woman and children and all those here in the US also unless you want to house and feed a prison population of billions.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Well why else would they be there if they werent guilty? 90% of these terrorists were captured fighting US and allied soldiers in Afganistan. Now if that's not a cause for holding them as terrorists then you tell what is. I'm not saying that ever musilum is a terrorist and I resent you implying that of me.

[miles teg 1]

Well given the wierd answer you gave it was kinda difficult not to think that was what you meant (that all Muslims are terrorists).   My apologies if you don't think that.

However back up a bit... ok...so people fighting a foreign miitary invader are automatically terrorists?  In that case Israelies were terrorists when Arab armies invaded, the Vietcong were terrorists, and the French, Polish, and Jewish resistance during WWII were terrorists.

Generally terrorism implies attacking civilian targets and unless you can prove that those militants caught fighting US soldiers were targetting civilians then they were not terrorists. They are a type of prisoner of war and generally prisoners of war are eventually released.

When I was in the Army, I fully realised that if I was to have gotten deployed in a war zone that I was a legitimate target of war.  Sure I probably would have grown to demonize and hate my enemy once my buddies started dying but I knew that I couldn't consider them terrorists unless they started using terror tactics against a civilian population or government officials.

Also again... how are these guys infringing upon your freedom?

How many of these guys were involved in the 9/11 planning or knew anything about that???

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

Well given the wierd answer you gave it was kinda difficult not to think that was what you meant (that all Muslims are terrorists). My apologies if you don't think that.

However back up a bit... ok...so people fighting a foreign miitary invader are automatically terrorists? In that case Israelies were terrorists when Arab armies invaded, the Vietcong were terrorists, and the French, Polish, and Jewish resistance during WWII were terrorists.

Generally terrorism implies attacking civilian targets and unless you can prove that those militants caught fighting US soldiers were targetting civilians then they were not terrorists. They are a type of prisoner of war and generally prisoners of war are eventually released.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Okay then my friend,If you think these men are innocent then tell me why you think that and back up your claim with proof that they are innocent. Because the only reason the USA needs to put a man there is to be captured fighting US or allied soldiers. Also they are not prisoners of war because they were not wearing uniform,Al Qeada is not a government,and Al Qeada or the Taliban did not sign the Genva convention treaty defining PoWs.

[Akira 0]

Ya see...the thing about the American way (deomcracy and freedom) is that it is the prosecutions burden to prove guilt...not the accused.

[miles teg 1]

What Akira said... innocent until proven guilty is the American way...or it was.

In addition, some Taliban did wear a type of easily identifiable symbol and that was the black turban.  They were the military force of the Afghan government at that time.

Just because they didn't have Western Uniforms doesn't mean they weren't soldiers. US Special Forces sometimes operate wearing civilian clothes. Does that mean that they are terrorists and should not be treated as a Prisoner of War (under the Geneva Convention) if they are caught by an enemy?

I'm not saying that they should all be let free, but that they need their cases heard and some thinking needs to be done about how long to hold them.  I think that if they have no tangible link to terrorist action or planning and were simply foot soldiers of the Taliban, that their should be efforts to try and reform them, and reintegrate them back into Afghan society once Afghanistan stabilizes.  Until then, those particular prisoners should be treated humanely and kept in decent living conditions.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

What Akira said... innocent until proven guilty is the American way...or it was.

In addition, some Taliban did wear a type of easily identifiable symbol and that was the black turban. They were the military force of the Afghan government at that time.

Just because they didn't have Western Uniforms doesn't mean they weren't soldiers. US Special Forces sometimes operate wearing civilian clothes. Does that mean that they are terrorists and should not be treated as a Prisoner of War (under the Geneva Convention) if they are caught by an enemy?

I'm not saying that they should all be let free, but that they need their cases heard and some thinking needs to be done about how long to hold them. I think that if they have no tangible link to terrorist action or planning and were simply foot soldiers of the Taliban, that their should be efforts to try and reform them, and reintegrate them back into Afghan society once Afghanistan stabilizes. Until then, those particular prisoners should be treated humanely and kept in decent living conditions.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Its not considered a uniform by the USA or its allies and the UN hasnt said much about it so that can only mean they are in agreement. Also the SF soldiers wear dog tags which is an acceptable proof of a uniform. And like I said the Taliban never sign the Genva convention treaty so leaglly they dont have to be treated like PoWs. Also the Genva convention doesnt say anything about having treat terrorist as PoWs so what the USA is doing perfectly legal wheather you like it or not.

[miles teg 1]

Um... the U.N. has been EXTREMELY vocal about the status of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan.

Many senior US military leaders have also expressed deep concerns about the lack of POW status for the prisoners there as they know that it will effect how US prisoners are treated in future wars which will most likely be similar unconventional wars.

So its not a done deal by any means as the United Nations has not at all given the US a green flag to do with these prisoners whatever the hell we want to do with them.  Furthermore, information is always leaking about what we're doing to them.   Case in point:

http://news.yahoo.com/s....VRPUCUl

Quote[/b] ]

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

Thu Jun 23, 3:17 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Military interrogators at the Guantanamo prison camp may have breached medical privacy and encouraged doctors to violate professional and legal standards, two medical ethics experts said in an influential U.S. medical journal on Thursday.

They said their own interviews with staffers at Guantanamo and records from the facility show that prisoners' health records could be used against them to find the most effective ways to extract information from them.

The     Pentagon's top health official said the allegation were "an outrageous distortion" of what actually was going on at the prison camp in Cuba, where the United States holds more than 500 foreign terrorism suspects.

Dr. Gregg Bloche of the Brookings Institution and a law professor at Georgetown University in Washington, and Jonathan Marks, a barrister at Matrix Chambers in London and a bioethics fellow at Georgetown, made the allegations in a commentary in the     New England Journal of Medicine.

Health professionals caring for the prisoners at Guantanamo have been encouraged to tell military officials there about relevant health information, Bloche and Marks alleged.

"Health information has been routinely available to behavioral science consultants and others who are responsible for crafting and carrying out interrogation strategies," they wrote in their commentary.

"Through early 2003 (and possibly later), interrogators themselves had access to medical records. And since late 2002, psychiatrists and psychologists have been part of a strategy that employs extreme stress, combined with behavior-shaping rewards, to extract actionable intelligence from resistant captives," they added.

ACCESSORIES FOR GATHERING INTELLIGENCE

This makes health caregivers into accessories for gathering intelligence, they said.

"Not only does this undermine patient trust; it puts prisoners at greater risk for serious abuse. The global political fallout from such abuse may pose more of a threat to U.S. security than any secrets still closely held by shackled internees at Guantanamo Bay," they said.

Dr. William Winkenwerder, the assistant secretary of defense for health affairs, denied the allegations and said the Guantanamo detainees had the same rights as federal or military inmates.

"To put it bluntly and plainly, Dr. Bloche's article is an outrageous distortion of the plain facts and the truth regarding our policies for our health personnel ... and regarding our expectations for our personnel," Winkenwerder said.

While acknowledging it was possible transgressions could have occurred before the policy was issued in 2002, he said Bloche deliberately distorted a small part of it that said confidentiality was not absolute.

He said it would be a judgment call, for example in cases of suicide, specific threats, or infectious diseases.

"For example, if a detainee offered up information that was about a plan or an intention to harm other people ... if a medical provider has that kind of information, he or she is guided to provide that information to his or her chain of command and to appropriate authorities," Winkenwerder said.

The United States has classified the detainees at Guantanamo as "enemy combatants" and denied them rights accorded to prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions.

Groups such as Amnesty International have criticized this. Former detainees have said they were tortured and an  FBI memo accused Pentagon personnel at Guantanamo of using "torture techniques."

So even the FBI says we're torturing them. If this kind of treatment was happening to American citizens overseas suspected of being spies or terrorists, I'd imagine that you and most Americans would be absolutely outraged!!!

I know I sure as hell would be.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

I still stand by what I said. Being humilated and put into stress positions is not torture. That's thats soft treatment compared to what they would do to americans or america allies.

Quote[/b] ]Um... the U.N. has been EXTREMELY vocal about the status of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan.

Many senior US military leaders have also expressed deep concerns about the lack of POW status for the prisoners there as they know that it will effect how US prisoners are treated in future wars which will most likely be similar unconventional wars.

So its not a done deal by any means as the United Nations has not at all given the US a green flag to do with these prisoners whatever the hell we want to do with them. Furthermore, information is always leaking about what we're doing to them. Case in point:

I'm sorry for making a premature comment about the UN. I was wrong. But the US really doesnt have to answer to the UN on the issue on the terrorists and dont forget the israelis tortured they're captured prisoners.

[Akira 0]

Why are we comparing ourselves to what "they would do?" America, being a civilized and "free" country, is suppose to be a beacon I thought? Suppose to be a symbol for the world of what is possible. When has it become acceptable to justify our action by what terrorists would do?

[miles teg 1]

Its a hell of alot more then just stress positions and humilation.   Also stress positions IS torture.  I don't care how you want to sweeten it up.  So is constant humiliation like being forced to walk around naked or made to get on top of other men naked.  That is just sick twisted sadism.  

Kicking around Qu'rans and pissing on people (and their Qu'ran) is also EXTREMELY EXTREMELY offensive to Muslims.  What you don't seem to understand is the impact that these abuses are having in the world (especially the Muslim World) towards the United States.     The dammage is HUGE.

Even the International Red Cross called GITMO the Gulag of our times.   That's pretty bad considering how the Red Cross has done so much for the US in past wars when we were percieved by the world as the good guys.   Now most of the world is scratching their heads and wondering what the hell we are doing.  Very swiftly we are losing the morale highground if we haven't completely lost it already.

Oh by the way...I was reminded that the US has also held US Citizens in prison without access to legal representation as well.  ONly recently I believe it was Jose Pedia that a judge ordered the government to allow to have legal representation and that they couldn't hold him indefinately.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also from what I heard most of these guys were captured fighting US and allied forces so they are not innocent.

This is untrue. Most of the prisoners in Guantanamo were not captured during or after fights but were sold to US forces by people who wanted to make a quick bug. They accused their neighbours for being Taleban and sacked some money plus the goods of the neighbour. These are no single stories but regular ones of Gitmo prisoners. You may want to check some internet resources on that.

Only Cheney or Rumsy labelling them illegal combatants doesn´t make them some of them automatically...

Holding prisoners isolated without a charge for years and writing memos about flexible torture techniques doesn´t make the US look especially fair and innocent...

[theavonlady 2]

but were sold to US forces by people who wanted to make a quick bug.

Sort of captured on the fly?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sort of captured on the fly?

No, sort of blame someone for terrorist activities although it´s not true. That´s what you get when you pay money for suspects...

As I said, check the records. The PDF files of about 60 Gitmo cases are free available for review. Do it.

If you want to have an indepth look on worldwide prisoners of the "war on terror", Guantanamo prisoners and their background, I´d suggest you check this page:

Gitm prisoners in pictures and with their story

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Sort of captured on the fly?

No, sort of blame someone for terrorist activities although it´s not true. That´s what you get when you pay money for suspects...

As I said, check the records. The PDF files of about 60 Gitmo cases are free available for review. Do it.

The Department of Defense, working through the National Security Council interagency process, established procedures that would provide appropriate legal process to these detainees, procedures that go beyond what is required even under the Geneva Conventions. These included combatant status review tribunals to confirm that, in fact, each individual is, in fact, an unlawful enemy combatant. Every detainee currently at Guantanamo has received such a hearing. As a result, some 38 individuals were released.

- US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, June 14, 2005, Department of Defense Briefing

Must go.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Department of Defense, working through the National Security Council interagency process, established procedures that would provide appropriate legal process to these detainees, procedures that go beyond what is required even under the Geneva Conventions. These included combatant status review tribunals to confirm that, in fact, each individual is, in fact, an unlawful enemy combatant. Every detainee currently at Guantanamo has received such a hearing. As a result, some 38 individuals were released.

- US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, June 14, 2005

You´re kidding , right ?

I guess you´d be jumping in pleasure if they arrested your hypothetical 15 year old son, sent him to various prisons over the planet, interrogate him with torture methods and check his case 17 - 26 months after his imprisonment. Oh and of course you would not know about his whereabout for at least 7 - 9 months first....

I guess this is only fine when applied to others.

[SFWanabe 0]

Its a hell of alot more then just stress positions and humilation. Also stress positions IS torture. I don't care how you want to sweeten it up. So is constant humiliation like being forced to walk around naked or made to get on top of other men naked. That is just sick twisted sadism.

Kicking around Qu'rans and pissing on people (and their Qu'ran) is also EXTREMELY EXTREMELY offensive to Muslims. What you don't seem to understand is the impact that these abuses are having in the world (especially the Muslim World) towards the United States. The dammage is HUGE.

Even the International Red Cross called GITMO the Gulag of our times. That's pretty bad considering how the Red Cross has done so much for the US in past wars when we were percieved by the world as the good guys. Now most of the world is scratching their heads and wondering what the hell we are doing. Very swiftly we are losing the morale highground if we haven't completely lost it already.

Oh by the way...I was reminded that the US has also held US Citizens in prison without access to legal representation as well. ONly recently I believe it was Jose Pedia that a judge ordered the government to allow to have legal representation and that they couldn't hold him indefinately.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Whatever dude the whole naked man deal only happened once and it wasnt even at GITMO. Also stress positions are not defined as torture and nether is humilation and no one has proven wheather the koran has been mishandled or not. Also you dont know what the hell is going on there so how can you you say if the USA is torturing them or not? Also it wasnt the red cross who called GITMO the gulag of our time it was Amnesty International so it just shows how little you know of the subject and I've seen pictures of gulags and GITMO is far from it.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]This is untrue. Most of the prisoners in Guantanamo were not captured during or after fightsto make a quick bug. They accused their neighbours for being Taleban and sacked some money plus the goods of the neighbour. These are no single stories but regular ones of Gitmo prisoners. You may want to check some internet resources on that.

I havent heard this so I dont know where you got it from.

[miles teg 1]

Sorry, you're right that was Amnesty International that made the Gulag comment. However the Department of Defense did admit that a Qu'ran had an obsenity written in it by a guard (although they claim a prisoner did it which I find highly unlikely), and that one was pissed on when a guard pissed into an air vent to splash urine onto a sleeping prisoner..and it got on his Qu'ran.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050603/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_koran_dc

Quote[/b] ] WASHINGTON (Reuters) - American jailers at the Guantanamo prison for foreign terrorism suspects splashed a Koran with urine, kicked and stepped on the Islamic holy book and soaked it with water, the U.S. military said on Friday.

In addition according to this article here: http://www.boston.com/news....mode=PF

Quote[/b] ] The U.S. military for the first time on Friday detailed how jailers at Guantanamo mishandled the Koran, including a case in which a guard's urine splashed through a vent onto the Islamic holy book and others in which it was kicked, stepped on and soaked in water.

So apparently they also kicked a Qu'ran around. This is stuff that the Pentagon actually admits and so far they've not publicised any disciplinary action taken against these guards. All of this amounts to a HUGE HUGE offense to Muslims around the world.

Also concerning torture:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139938,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

The Times article said the International Committee of the Red Cross (search) determined that the U.S. military used psychological and physical coercion "tantamount to torture."

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>