War against terror

[miles teg 1]

Um...last I heard just about every released prisoner held at Guantanoma reported being seriouisly abused as well as witnessing abuse.

This is the norm and what is VERY telling is that the US military and the Bush administration REFUSES to open up these prisons to international inspections/minitoring.

Its because we don't want to quit torturing.

And it was Donald Rumsfeld and others in the TBA who gave the order for tougher interrogation tactics. So what we've so far is just the military going into its usual cover-up mode. Once again very little accountability with those in charge mostly getting off with little punishment.

At the main US prison in Afghanistan I heard today that two Afghan prisoners died recently from abuse. Soldiers know that as long as nobody takes pictures of it, that they can get away with doing whatever the hell they want to prisoners.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[bn880 5]

Hi,

I'm not posting here much anymore, reason being, it just makes me angry to think about reports like that. This is totally unacceptable, and of course, totally common in war. I don't remember clean wars, ever. Perhaps I don't know history well enough, so this seems to be the trend to me.

The trully disgusting and upsetting thing is that the Americans claim to be of superior understanding, power, and capability to the people in Iraq and Afghanistan (wait a minute, did he say they are people?). Then for which reason and purpose is this torture undertaken? It is not the code to the Enigma in WW2, the Americans are not down to their last resources and defences in a major defeat. So why all these cover ups and condoned torture. You have to fall on your head to believe this stuff goes un noticed by the high rankers.... they are very likely seeing this shit happen when they visit various places, or there are always a few whistle blowers, that is if they know the higher ranks do not condone this behaviour... ;)

Anyway,

I am disgusted and upset, as usual... take care all of you who are upset at this, and for those of you who defend this by one bit; well I can't say in the forums... but I certainly won't say take care, get an education and some dose of reality is more like it.

[Bordoy 0]

From what i have seen and read today, nothing will change my mind and i now hate the muslims(well the extremeists). They are all the same to me.

They (loads of them) were out infront of the US Embassy in London. Burning US flags, burning christian crosses, chanting anti-us and anti-british slogans. Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

They can all fuck off, literally.

If you got the Daily Mail, it's in there a few pages in, WITH photos to show they are not lying.

They want the US to stop desecrating their 'holy symbol', well burning theirs aint gonna help isit.

[miles teg 1]

Well the theory behind these types of abuses is that you gotta fight fire with fire.  Terrorism with terror.  You gotta terrorize the terrorists...plus torture including psychological torture can be effective in breaking someone down to the point in which they begin to lose a grip on reality and are totally torn and beaten down.  Apparently its working otherwise they wouldn't keep doing it.

Its just not politically correct to admit to using torture.

Instead more friendly words like "stress positions" are used.

Most Americans don't care because these are terrorists not children and who wants to be seen as a terrorist sympathizer?

So very few Americans speak up to express outrage at the treatment because most have little or no pity on these "alleged" terrorists.  Most Americans beleive they are guilty and deserve death or at the least a living hell because they think they are all like those 9/11 Al-Qaeda hijackers and want to destroy America.

They don't realize that many of these "terrorists" have very little evidence against them proving that they are terrorists.

So the goal of the US military seems to be more about making sure that information about the torture of prisoners DOES NOT GET OUT by tightening security even more and becoming better at dammage control and delegitimizing/discrediting any whistleblowers.  Then of coarse when allegations do come out, there is a investigation, and if the evidence is very damning and very public, a few enlistees are singled out but basically given a slap on the wrist punishment.

If it was not for those photographs of Abu Graeb abuses, you can bet that no soldiers would have been prosecuted for abuses there.

But I don't know...I'm a cynic and maybe there are some US military leaders who do actually believe in the military code of ethics and in honor and who are actually trying to stem this problem.  Its not only them but also in the civilian intelligence fields that this is a problem.  But, from what I gather its mostly US military guards and military intel people who are doing most of the abuses.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

From what i have seen and read today, nothing will change my mind and i now hate the muslims(well the extremeists). They are all the same to me.

They (loads of them) were out infront of the US Embassy in London. Burning US flags, burning christian crosses, chanting anti-us and anti-british slogans. Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

They can all fuck off, literally.

If you got the Daily Mail, it's in there a few pages in, WITH photos to show they are not lying.

They want the US to stop desecrating their 'holy symbol', well burning theirs aint gonna help isit.

You see that effect they had on you is exactly what they want.  It is self-fullfilling prophecy.  If you run into one of them on the street you're much more likely to be hostile or at the least a little rude to them because now you feel hatred towards them.  

However for those protesters, burning crosses is a way of having "revenge" and by showing their anger.  Also how big was this group.  From what I saw on the news this looked like a small demonstration.  I very much doubt that these Muslim protesters represented all of the Islamic community in the UK.

But even so they weren't shooting people, or blowing stuff up.  But they succeeded in pissing you off so that now you feel how they feel.  Except...what they don't realize is that now they created more hatred towards themselves...which some Brits I'm sure will demonstrate in how they talk to and deal with Muslims in their communities... and that is by showing them disrespect and disdain...which in turn will cause even more anger amongst Muslims in England and cries of being oppressed which in turn will cause Muslims in England to unite more strongly and possibly a few to react violently towards non-Muslim Brits.   Then of coarse you'll have a heavy handed crackdown on their community as well as a Christian violent backlash and you have the makings of an ugly ethnic/religious miniwar. The Dutch are having much the same problem as well.

Humans have such a wonderful way of creating self-fulling prophecies.   Aside from tribalism, it is one of the nastiest and most self-destructive traits of our species.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also how big was this group. From what I saw on the news this looked like a small demonstration

At least 300.

[theavonlady 2]

Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

Are you illiterate?

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source....2&cdi=0

[Bordoy 0]

Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

Are you illiterate?

img]http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050520/i/r3622176513.jpg[/img]

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source....2&cdi=0

Not when some of the boards which featured as photos in the paper were of there language. That photo i have never seen before.

I think it's time the Pope declares a crusade.

[Akira 0]

Bush already did...

...just not in so many words...

[Bordoy 0]

Bush already did...

...just not in so many words...

So did Anakin Skywalker ;)

[theavonlady 2]

Bush already did...

...just not in so many words...

Not in any words at all.

But a picture is worth a 1000 words.

[chops 111]

Bush already did...

...just not in so many words...

Not in any words at all.

But a picture is worth a 1000 words.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog....-02.jpg

Well here's a statistic to go with your picture Avon Lady

100,000 plus civilians killed in Iraq. source

[Balschoiw 0]

Names of Guantanamo prisoners and the tribunal papers on their interrogations in copies. Worth a read:

Court documents on Gitmo prisoners

[miles teg 1]

Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

Are you illiterate?

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source....2&cdi=0

That picture Avon Lady does not represent most Muslims as much as you'd love to believe.  Notice the women who are holding those signs?  That should give you a clue.  Only Wahabis/Salafis cover themselves in black.  These are the most fundamentalist sect of Islam.  Its not surprising at all that they'd be holding up such signs.

If they did that here in the US, they'd get lynched.

Curiously, last night there was a group of fundamentalist Christians on my street corner last night yelling in megaphones and holding up signs saying much the same things.    Gotta love fundamentalists.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]If they did that here in the US, they'd get lynched.

Bullshit,

Quote[/b] ]Curiously, last night there was a group of fundamentalist Christians on my street corner last night yelling in megaphones and holding up signs saying much the same things.

Double bullshit.

[theavonlady 2]

Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

Are you illiterate?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.y....513.jpg

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source....2&cdi=0

That picture Avon Lady does not represent most Muslims as much as you'd love to believe.

I did not say that it represents most Muslims, as much as you'd love to believe.

But please tell us if it represents 1% or 99%. You seem to know.

Quote[/b] ]Notice the women who are holding those signs?  That should give you a clue.  Only Wahabis/Salafis cover themselves in black.  These are the most fundamentalist sect of Islam.  Its not surprising at all that they'd be holding up such signs.

How many Wahabi Madrasim are there worldwide? How many people learn in them? How many people have graduated from them? How many US Mosques and Imans are funded by the Saudis and promote Wahabiism? How many non-Wahabi Muslims sympathize with that message in the picture, despite not being Wahabis? You seem to know all. Tell all!

Quote[/b] ]If they did that here in the US, they'd get lynched.

Close but no prize, I suppose.

And why exactly do you think that they didn't in London?

Quote[/b] ]Curiously, last night there was a group of fundamentalist Christians on my street corner last night yelling in megaphones and holding up signs saying much the same things.

Can you be more specific? Which denomination do they belong to? Sounds like a frightening nationwide and international threat! Look - over there - Christians! =====>>>>>

Always the apologist, Miles. Just ignore them.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]If they did that here in the US, they'd get lynched.

Bullshit,

Quote[/b] ]Curiously, last night there was a group of fundamentalist Christians on my street corner last night yelling in megaphones and holding up signs saying much the same things.

Double bullshit.

How enlightening.  Thank you for your thoughts.  

To Avon Lady, It is true that Muslims believe they have the truth, but I've been to such conferences and they are not about taking over governments and going on Jihad to wipe out the infidels.  They preach first and foremost uniting the Umma which is the world populations of Muslims.  They do rant about how the West has done a good deal to help divide Muslims (and alot of their rants I heavily disagree with), but for the most part its about converting by being the example, much as what many Christians preach about when they're doing fundraisers for sending out missionaries all over the world to spread the word of the Lord which they believe is the truth and the way.   Currently we see a huge movement by the Christian conservative right of this country to take control of the government and impose their religious beliefs on the rest of the country in fundamentalist Christian based laws. (Creating a constitutional amendment for Banning gay marriage is one example).  Laws against sex education is another example.

At any rate, if you're here in the states you should try going to one of these Islamic conferences if you don't believe me.  

As for that picture its very very simple to see that they are Wahabis/Salefis because they dress in total black and are completely covered.  Most Muslim women do not cover themselves completely like this, but rather only their heads.

As for the percentages of Wahabis and Salefis in the world, sorry to disappoint you, but I don't know the answer.  In my own area of Texas I would say they consist of maybe around 5%-8% of local Muslims.  But its not like you can do a survey because in the US "Wahabi" is a bad word and most Muslims absolutely refuse to do religious surveys.  I know because I tried doing such surveys and it failed miserably due to the climate of fear in the Islamic community.   However you are correct that Wahabis do have alot of influence on moderate Muslims due to the shear volume of stuff that they give for free to mosques around the world.  Unfortunately in the US they can't ban this stuff because thats restricting religious freedom, however internationally is another story and I would love to work with various organizations to try and halt the flow of alot of their more militant crap that they put out from Saudi Arabia.   However not all of it is bad.  Some of it is simply conservative Islam and not especially fanatical.   Only the most extreme Wahhabis/Salafis are dangerous...however fundamentalism of any religion is dangerous and leads to extremist ideologies.

These fundamentalist Islamic groups also tend to become militant alot more easily.

But even mainstream Sunni Muslims who aren't Wahabis can become militant if they are ignorant and are seeking to be led.  Ignorance is not the sole domain of fundamentalists.  Even the most liberal member of a religious organization can be brainwashed into a militant ideology if they are ignorant of their own religion and are the types who are attracted to chrasmatic religious leaders who embody the symbolism and deep spiritual romanticism of their religion.

As for the Christian group standing on the corner, I did not stop and ask them what group they were.  I'm assuming they were 7th Day adventists or something.  Most of their signs had things like, "The End is Coming, ACCEPT JESUS!" and "Jesus Loves You!"   Two that stood out were ones that said, "FIGHT FOR THE RIGHT!!!" and "We Are The Moral Majority".  There were a few other similar signs that I don't remember offhand.  But I talk to Christian fundamentalists quite often and to me they are little different then Muslim fundamentalists.   They have the same black and white simplistic world view.   The challenge for me is trying to think like them and in doing so, teaching them alternative viewpoints but in the context of their own beliefs.

I would consider you to be highly conservative, but with you it is very difficult on the internet to get to know you and understand you especially since I don't live over there and my knowledge of Judaism is very limited.  But I generally have better success in person developing dialog with fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. I most definitely do not ignore them. To ignore religious extremists is perilous. I have NEVER said to ignore them, nor am I an apologist. What I advocate is UNDERSTANDING their world view rather then just quickly labeling them terrorists and wackos and thus people to be killed and imprisoned. This failure of understanding what motivates Islamic extremists is the reason this whole war on terrorism is going nowhere and only getting worse. Furthermore, it is critically important to understand how they influence moderate Muslims. Right America is rapidly losing its influence on moderate Muslims while Al-Qaeda ideology is indeed rapidly becoming more and more influential amongst moderate Muslims around the world. However from my own experience working with various Islamic organizations and hanging around Mosques alot, I believe that the vast majority of Muslims are most definitely opposed to Al-Qaeda. But with that said, most are sympathetic to the Palistinian cause (which does not automatically mean they support Suicide Bombing) and most oppose the occupation of Iraq (which doesn't mean they automatically support Al-Qaeda).

To say they are all suspected terrorists is like saying that because I'm opposed to the war in Iraq that I support Al-Qaeda. Its basically that same idiotic "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists" statement George Bush made.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

*round of applause*

[denoir 0]

While I fully agree with you Chris, Avon's question is valid: What percentage are fundamentalists and further more, how extreme fundamentalists are they?

I mean what we saw in Afghanistan, the other week is not normal. Some demagogue tells a crowd about a story in a news paper that on the other side of the globe somebody did some toilet cleaning with the Quran and they go off rioting and people end up dead. Do you really believe that if somebody did some toilet cleaning with a Bible that the Christian fundamentalists in the US would start a violent riot?

American flag burning is an extremely popular party trick in the Mid East. You can't throw a decent demonstration there without burning some US flags. Do you see Americans rioting over it (and killing each other in the process).

What the Christian fundamentalists are trying to do in America is what moderate Islamic countries consider completely normal. Gay marriage ban? Try the death penalty for homosexuality, which is in place in most Islamic countries.

So I think the "fundamentalist" tag is more relative to the core religion, rather than a universal property. The question then is where the universal limits are and at what point it becomes a problem. Don't you think that at some point respect must be reciprocal?

[miles teg 1]

While I fully agree with you Chris, Avon's question is valid: What percentage are fundamentalists and further more, how extreme fundamentalists are they?

I mean what we saw in Afghanistan, the other week is not normal. Some demagogue tells a crowd about a story in a news paper that on the other side of the globe somebody did some toilet cleaning with the Quran and they go off rioting and people end up dead. Do you really believe that if somebody did some toilet cleaning with a Bible that the Christian fundamentalists in the US would start a violent riot?

American flag burning is an extremely popular party trick in the Mid East. You can't throw a decent demonstration there  without burning some US flags. Do you see Americans rioting over it (and killing each other in the process).

What the Christian fundamentalists are trying to do in America is what moderate Islamic countries consider completely normal. Gay marriage ban? Try the death penalty for homosexuality, which is in place in most Islamic countries.

So I think the "fundamentalist" tag is more relative to the core religion, rather than a universal property. The question then is where the universal limits are and at what point it becomes a problem. Don't you think that at some point respect must be reciprocal?

Denoir,  I'm not deeply knowledgable about the Shariat laws concerning homosexuality but only that it was later Hadiths that prescribed a death penalty for it.  

However the Qu'ran says this about homosexuality:

Quote[/b] ] "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:15-16)

So depending on how you intepret it, lesbians have it worse?  Unless the last bits regarding repentence apply to both men and women.

At any rate, it seems like according to the Qu'ran (which is supposed to supercede the Hadiths) its pretty clear that repentence and not having any more gay sex will keep them from being punished.  But nothing directly about death penalty (just keeping women in the house) except in later Hadiths.  On the whole punishment is very vague.  I know my Turkish and Egyptian friends don't have any problems with homosexuals.

At any rate, only five Islamic countries have death penalties against homosexuals.  There are: Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, and Yemen.   Afghanistan used ot have it also under the Taliban, but in the past decade it seems that only Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Taliban ever enforced that law.

As for your question I did answer it and the answer is that its impossible to know accurately.  I only made an estimation of around 5-8% in my city, but thats based on very unscientific and subjective methods on my part.  In other words I base that estimate on how conservative a Muslim that I talk to seems to be.   You simply CAN NOT scientifically get an accurate estimate of fundamentalism in American Muslims in the current climate.  They simply will not participate in any such study (as that makes them a security risk to the FBI if they are classified as fundamentalists).

Maybe a really really aggressive or cunning social scientist could do it in a decieving manner, but I think it would be next to impossible.   Even Christian fundamentalists and extremists DO NOT like being refered to as fundamentalists and extremists generally in my experience because of the negative canotations that has.  But they will speak more freely about their beliefs because they won't be classified as a terrorist suspect by doing so even if they say that they think anti-abortion doctors should be treated as murders and face the punishment of murderers.

Muslim fundamentalists on the other hand, face intense scrutiny by law enforcement if they speak out publicly.  They generally do not like talking about their religious beliefs to anyone they don't know.

Even if they do talk to a non-Muslim like myself, they may just tell me what they think I want to hear.  

As for flushing a Bible down the toilet... Hmm... I bet that'll get some Christians REALLY angry. They almost certainly would respond by a big Qu'ran toilet flushing party shown on CNN or something.

If you're trying to portray the Muslim protesters as violent savages, you only have to look at violent protests in Europe and America to see that we can get just as rowdy. Alot of these deaths in Afghanistan were caused by protests that got out of hand. When you have no strong police force, those things happen anywhere you have a protest over something that people feel really passionate about as mob psychology takes over. However laws concerning law protests and a strong police force with high quality crowd control/riot control training and equipment usually can keep things under control. It doesn't help that in countries like Afghanistan you also have lots of people with AKs who traditionally are not shy about using them. But in most of the Middle East and in Indonesia (the biggest Muslim country in the world) the protests were peaceful so I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove with that except that Muslims are uncivilized and Christians aren't?

The fact of the matter is that its not just religion that makes people riot or act militant. Its anything that people get passionate over under certain circumstances and political enviornments. I don't think any nation is excempt from savagery and behaving in an "uncivilized" manner.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[DracoPaladore 0]

Pat Tillman's death a result of Friendly Fire?

Quote[/b] ]US army 'let down dead NFL star'

The family of NFL star turned soldier, Pat Tillman have expressed anger at the US army's handling of his death.

"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," his father told the Washington Post.

Tillman died in Afghanistan in 2004 and for weeks afterwards, US army officials said he was killed by enemy fire.

They are said to have known he had been accidentally shot by US troops, but failed to inform his family of this.

'Poster boy'

Tillman's parents said they believe the military concocted the story that their son had been killed in a hail of enemy fire to stimulate national pride.

Mary Tillman

"They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realised that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a hand basket if the truth about the death got out. They blew up their poster boy," Patrick Tillman Senior said.

Tillman turned his back on a contract with the Arizona Cardinals American football team, worth $3.6m (Å2m), when he joined the US army six months after the 11 September 2001 attacks.

He enlisted in the US Rangers alongside his brother Kevin - a former professional baseball player with the Cleveland Indians - and both were subsequently despatched to Afghanistan as part of the US war on terror.

"Pat had high ideals about the country, that's why he did what he did. The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect," his mother Mary Tillman said.

Uniform burnt

Tillman died on 22 April 2004 when his US Rangers patrol was hit by gunfire as it passed along a canyon road in Khost province, south of Kabul, at twilight.

The 27-year-old was hit by a hail of bullets, which army officials quickly claimed came from the enemy - a story they stuck to for weeks afterwards.

But according to a recent US military investigation, army chiefs were informed that Tillman's death was the result of "friendly fire" within days of his death, but chose not to reveal this fact to his family or friends.

The true details of his death were not made known until 29 May 2004, weeks after a televised memorial service in which fans paid tribute to the man hailed as an "American hero".

"The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting," his mother said.

Tillman's uniform and body armour were burned the day after he was fatally shot.

At the time, officials claimed his uniform had been burned because it presented a biohazard. However, investigators now say his clothes should have been preserved as evidence.

The military investigation, led by Brig Gen Gary Jones of the Army Special Operations Command, was carried out at the request of Tillman family, who wanted to know why the uniform was burned and why information was withheld.

[Balschoiw 0]

Disgusting if it´s true

[denoir 0]

If you're trying to portray the Muslim protesters as violent savages, you only have to look at violent protests in Europe and America to see that we can get just as rowdy.

I'm not claiming otherwise, but we riot for different reasons (globalization, football etc). And yes, I do consider the violent protesters as brutes, just as with football hooligans.

The thing I'm trying to get at is that moral relativism can take you only so far. You can conclude that there are no absolutes, but that should be pretty obvious to most people. That all groups have their extremes is not a very remarkable insight. The question is where the average is and how the distribution looks like. To what degree are the football hooligans representative of the population? What kind of support do they have? On an absolute scale, what damage do they inflict on society?

Over the course of history Christian fundamentalists/supremacists have without a doubt murdered more people than their Muslim equivalents have. But let's look at today. America is for instance a very Christian country with a significant minority of religious fundamentalists. So how does America compare to for instance Saudi Arabia, a very Muslim country with a significant minority of religious fundamentalists?

In relative terms you could say that both countries are populated by religious freaks and have some very serious fundamentalist tendencies. Looking at the absolute levels however, you can see a very clear difference in terms of tolerance to other faiths and how integrated religion is into law.

If you have religion - any religion that claims exclusivity - integrated into your legal and political system, there's no chance in hell you can fully co-exist with other faiths and cultures. They are by definition heretics and infidels as you claim that your faith is the only absolute truth. And in the Mid East, religion is a fundamental part of government and law.

Is coexistence possible with infidels? Are you faithful to your religion if you are tolerant to heretics? The answer we are seeing today from the Mid East is a clear "no". At the same time the west is going out of its way to promote acceptance of diversity. So the relation is not symmetric, and the question is how long can this go on? Is a compromise possible, like in Turkey? Or is this in the end, as many right-wingers believe a war of cultures that has to be won?

[Colossus 2]

Quote[/b] ]

Madrid car bomb blast injures 3

MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A car bomb has exploded in Madrid after a

warning call in the name of the Basque separatist group ETA.

Three people have been lightly injured, emergency workers say.

A spokeswoman for Spain's Interior Ministry said a warning call had been

made to a Basque newspaper, Gara, ahead of the blast in northeastern

Madrid's San Blas district at 9:30 a.m.

Gara's Web site said an anonymous phone call in the name of ETA was

made to the newspaper at 8:45 a.m., saying a car bomb would explode

45 minutes later in a Renault Express -- a small truck -- parked at the

corner of Rufino Gonzalez and Alcala.

Basque separatist group ETA has often made warning calls to Gara before

an attack.

Alcala is a major boulevard leading into the center city and runs past the

city's main bullring. The bomb was some distance from the facility.

A video camera positioned in the capital showed thick black smoke rising

into the morning air.

Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero spoke about the bomb at the

outset of his previously scheduled appearance in the Spanish Senate on

Wednesday morning, saying the government will continue fighting

terrorism and vowing to defeat it.

Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso was due to speak at 11 a.m.

(5 a.m. EDT), also from the Senate, to provide more details about the

bomb.

Judge Ismael Moreno, of the National Court, which handles terrorism

cases, was headed to the scene of the car bombing, a National Court

official told CNN.

In February, ETA claimed responsibility for a powerful car bomb attack

near Madrid's convention center that hurt more than 40 people, sending

at least two dozen to the hospital.

ETA stands for Euskadi ta Askatasuna, which in the Basque language of

Euskara means Basque Homeland and Freedom.

Designated a terrorist group by the United States and the European

Union, the group has been blamed for more than 800 deaths since 1968.

About 400 ETA members are in prison.

About 2.5 million Basques live in the Pyrenees mountain region along the

border between Spain and France -- where their ancestors have lived for

5,000 years.

Another half million live in France. Separatists want to establish a

homeland encompassing the three provinces Spain officially recognizes

as Basque plus another Spanish province, Navarra, and part of southern

France.

Source: CNN News

[Solaris85 0]

Holding up boards and cards with writing which i can not read.

Are you illiterate?

img]http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050520/i/r3622176513.jpg[/img]

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source....2&cdi=0

Just out of curiousity. What is your position on ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers who harrass Palestinians and even threaten to assassinate Israeli leaders who go against their plans of creating a "greater Israel"?

Surely you understand that Israel is far from innocent when it comes to the causes of its current conflict with the Palestinians?

Don't quote with images the next time. Read the board-rules if you're unsure about the rules. Welcome -Shadow