War against terror

[FireflyPL 0]

Second, show me where I said that "everybody is good who fights Russia"? You said that - not me. Btw, I give a fuck if Russia is strong or weak. I'm neither an ally nor an adversary of Russia.

Try to read my post again. I was refering to the way of thinking not any particular quote.

And one more thing, do you really think that Russia would be weaken if Chechens would get some freedom? Could you explain this to me?

That depends what you thinking about. Some freedom, they have autonomy since 1922 as Authonomic Chechen Region and since 1957 as Ingu-Chechen ASSR. But if you think about independece then yes, it would weaken Russia's territorial integrity in the same way as independence of Silesia would weaken Poland's integrity.

Third, Chechnya is a republic of the Russian Federation - not a province. And I've never said it's a country. And the point is that Chechens are fighting against Russians for their own country for more than 200 years. But Russians don't even want to give some autonomy for their region. Can you tell me why, wise guy?

Your lack of knowledge about Chechnya is astonishing. I wrote you it has had autonomy for more than 80 years. What's more they had some form of independence, after first war, but they couldn't cope with that and republic became a safe heaven for mafias, bands, completely chaotic lawless region, where drug trafficing, human trafficing, extortions, kidnapings and assaults on neighbouring republics were on daily basis

Fourth, if you call Maskhadov terrorist I'd call Putin the terrorist no 1 in Russia. I don't see any difference between these two politicians.

Well, then how can you say that you are not against Russia if you see no difference between the president of a country and separatistic warlord?

And I'd never call Aslan Maskhadov a terrorist since he had never accepted terror as a solution of Chechen war for independence.

So, who was financing chechen terrorists?

Btw, was Yasser Arafat a terrorist either?

There is no doubt about it. He was personally involved in many terror atacks as well as command and control over atacks and terror organisations. He even paid suicide bombers in last decade. Anyway, tell me what it has to do with Russia and Chechnya? Stick to the subject man.

And the last thing - can you tell me what makes Maskhadov and other Chechens are perceived as terrorists and the most dangerous threat to Russia?

Does such names as Budionnovsk, Dubrovka, Bieslan, tell you something? Chechens themselves worked very hard to be seen as terrorists.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]What's more they had some form of independence, after first war, but they couldn't cope with that and republic became a safe heaven for mafias, bands, completely chaotic lawless region, where drug trafficing, human trafficing, extortions, kidnapings and assaults on neighbouring republics were on daily basis

On the contrary,they coped with independence extremly well and the popular ellected president Mashkhadov.It was because of sore loosers such as Basayev and Yandarbiyev Chechnya sumberged into chaos,men that constantly seeked to dispute his authority and instead of helping him assert control of the country and institute security they were doing just the opposite.

Quote[/b] ]Does such names as Budionnovsk, Dubrovka, Bieslan, tell you something?

He asked you what made Mashkhadov a terrorist and you answered by naming 3 incidents which were all claimed by Basayev accompanied by a strong denial of involvment from Mashkhadov and absolutley no proof to incriminate him.

Quote[/b] ]Chechens themselves worked very hard to be seen as terrorists.

With Russia working even harder blaming every single incident happening inside Russia on the Chechens trying to rally support for a second invasion.

Here are three other names:Buinaksk, Moscow, and Volgodonsk or the apartment bombs in September 1999 which was the final drop and allowed Russia to invade Checnhya.There were of course some less mediatised  subsequent discoveries such as the bombs being hexogen based or the FSB government agents found in the city of Ryazan planting explosive devices.

On a final note I think it should have all ended in 1996.

100,000 Russians and Chechens died during that war were more then enough and it was clear they would never give up independence for which they have been fighting for everytime an oportunity showed up from the late 18th century.

What happend from there after can be blamed on two main figures-Basayev and the Russian government.The conflict will probably continue for many years to come but with Mashkhadov out of the picture the path is clear for the Wahabi radicals to pick up the leadership,making it easier for Moscow's policy not to negotiate and keeping it's important region for it's oil infrastructure away from independance.

[der bastler 0]

Sorry, but War on Terror is lost.

Aims of terrorists: reduce our freedom and security, cause fear, get own goals (freedom, independence, money, power etc).

Western countries today: freedom and civil rights are cut back for the War on Terror.

=> Terrorists win.

Two examples: Patriotic Act, Antiterrorgesetze (anti terror laws)

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/19/19655/1.html

"Dann kommen die Jungs, wo man nur die Augen sieht"

"And then the guys come who only show their eyes"

About Bush's visit to Mainz. About policemen entering flats just like that, removing Posters reading "George who?" or "Would you like a beer or pretzel?" or "Terror gegen Terror?" ("Terror against terror?") from the windows. Threatening the owners with call of SEKs (SWAT pendant). Collecting their IDs, filming them...

[QBA69 1]

Try to read my post again. I was refering to the way of thinking not any particular quote.

Oh, I see - so you can read my mind? Maybe you can also read my palm? LOL

Show me Mr. wise guy just one sentence in my earlier posts that could make anybody think that I'm a "rusofobic and prochechen".

That depends what you thinking about. Some freedom, they have autonomy since 1922 as Authonomic Chechen Region and since 1957 as Ingu-Chechen ASSR. But if you think about independece then yes, it would weaken Russia's territorial integrity in the same way as independence of Silesia would weaken Poland's integrity.

Your lack of knowledge about Chechnya is astonishing. I wrote you it has had autonomy for more than 80 years. What's more they had some form of independence, after first war, but they couldn't cope with that and republic became a safe heaven for mafias, bands, completely chaotic lawless region, where drug trafficing, human trafficing, extortions, kidnapings and assaults on neighbouring republics were on daily basis

ROTLF (3x)

I don't know whether you're deceiving yourself or trying to deceive me? Are you trying to tell me that some nations had a real autonomy in Soviet Russia or USSR? So maybe Ukrainian, Moldavian, Latvian, Estonian or Lithuanian SSR were autonomous and independent regions after the WW2? And if you really think so then you must be an ignorant about history of Russia and other nations that were conquered and enslaved by Russians. One more thing - could you give away your source of these very interesting and I guess highly truthful informations on how living in Chechnya looked like in the past?

Well, then how can you say that you are not against Russia if you see no difference between the president of a country and separatistic warlord?

How many times am I to tell you that Aslan Maskhadov was a democratically elected President of Chechnya in January 1997? You can say that he was a leader of Chechen rebels during the First Chechen War (1994-96) and he was the one who led the Chechen delegation in peace talks with Russia which led to a truce ending the war. But he wasn't any kind of warlord or terrorist.

Or maybe show me some articles where I could read that I'm wrong. Quote any statements or comments where some European or American politicians or journalists say that he was a worlord or terrorist.

So, who was financing chechen terrorists?

I have no clue but I can bet you know them by name, don't you?

Btw, was Yasser Arafat a terrorist either?

There is no doubt about it. He was personally involved in many terror atacks as well as command and control over atacks and terror organisations. He even paid suicide bombers in last decade. Anyway, tell me what it has to do with Russia and Chechnya? Stick to the subject man.

So I guess he is the first terrorist who won Nobel Peace Prize in 1994. LOL

And I'm not gonna stick to the subject and I'll tell you what it has to do with Russian-Chechen war. The point is that you and most of Russian politicians don't understand that only dialog without using any kind of force can bring peace to this region of Caucasus. And Maskhadov was the only one who could represent all Chechens in such peace talks. Now when he is dead there is no peaceful solution to this conflict and any chances to some kind of truce are lost for many years I'm afraid.

Does such names as Budionnovsk, Dubrovka, Bieslan, tell you something? Chechens themselves worked very hard to be seen as terrorists.

Of course that these names tell me a lot. But you forget that the man who stands behind these terrorist attacks is Shamil Basayev. And if any Chechen rebel leader is to be killed by Russians he is the first one and the only one I guess.

Summing up I just wanted to tell that Aslan Maskhadov was not a terrorist and Russians made a big mistake killing him. And the Russian way of dealing with the Chechens worries me a lot since I'm a follower of peaceful solutions - and not only brutal force as Russians do.

But as I can see your point of view differs a lot from mine and that's why I'm not gonna continue this discussion with you because it's pointless.

[FireflyPL 0]

Oh, I see - so you can read my mind? Maybe you can also read my palm? LOL

That's called observation and analysis.

I don't know whether you're deceiving yourself or trying to deceive me? Are you trying to tell me that some nations had a real autonomy in Soviet Russia or USSR? So maybe Ukrainian, Moldavian, Latvian, Estonian or Lithuanian SSR were autonomous and independent regions after the WW2? And if you really think so then you must be an ignorant about history of Russia and other nations that were conquered and enslaved by Russians. One more thing - could you give away your source of these very interesting and I guess highly truthful informations on how living in Chechnya looked like in the past?

Try to look for some web sites about chechnya plus just a little bit of encyclopedia.

How many times am I to tell you that Aslan Maskhadov was a democratically elected President of Chechnya in January 1997

You can tell it a milion times but It's not gonna change the facts.

So I guess he is the first terrorist who won Nobel Peace Prize in 1994. LOL

Yes he is. Sad but true.

And I'm not gonna stick to the subject and I'll tell you what it has to do with Russian-Chechen war. The point is that you and most of Russian politicians don't understand that only dialog without using any kind of force can bring peace to this region of Caucasus. And Maskhadov was the only one who could represent all Chechens in such peace talks. Now when he is dead there is no peaceful solution to this conflict and any chances to some kind of truce are lost for many years I'm afraid.

And of course you are alpha and omega and know everything best right? Dream on man..

But as I can see your point of view differs a lot from mine and that's why I'm not gonna continue this discussion with you because it's pointless.

Well, I thought that different points of views are basics for any discussion. But sure if you want "discussion" with rubbing each others backs, go on discuss with people who share your point of view, that would be surelly interesting. Don't count on me then, I'm not gonna be wasting my time.

[miles teg 1]

Sorry but I agree with Voodzia.  I haven't seen any information showing that Aslan Maskhadov was coordinating and sponsoring terrorist attacks from any non-Russian media sources.  

However with that said, I believe that in the short term, Russia will be successful but only because they control the media in that region and rule with an iron fist.  

I'm glad that I don't live in a country like that.  I have nothing against Russians personally.  I've known lots of great people from Russia and its a country with a rich history and culture,  but I have never had much love for any Russian government past or present.  To me, Putin is just another Czar.

The day America starts dealing with terrorism as the Russians do, is the day my country ceases to be America in my eyes.

As for observation and analysis... there is a little something called bias that you should be aware of. It seems you have made up your mind what type of person Voodzia is and ignore him when he says he's not that kind of person.

Analysis is only as good as the data you feed it and most people are not trained to do social analysis or psychoanalysis.

Coincidently I actually am trained in both fields. However if someone tells me that I am wrong about them, I don't continue to ignore them and act as if they're lying.

That just pisses people off.

When you keep making assumptions about a person and refuse to listen to them, you end up making them angry...which then justifies in your mind that they are the type of person you hate. Some people do it purposefully, others do it without even realizing that they are demonizing a person. Once you belittle a person in your mind, then it is easy to ignore everything they say, because then in your mind their arguements are all lies and have no significance no matter what information they post. Its like when I talk to some fundamentalist Muslims or Christians who automatically think everything I say that they don't believe in is from Satan and are all lies because I'm not Muslim or not Christian.

People like that are extremely difficult to communicate with.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[nSe7eN 0]

Even if Aslan Maskhadov were a terrorist at some part of the story, he can make a change there, if he can presents all the other fighting groups in Chechnya, then you really have something to start with, that happened before, that if the Russians really looking for peace, and not only taking control over that area, they can negotiate and see the real reason for the war, then I think things will change there, for the better conditions I hope!

[Akira 0]

This on Drudge:

Quote[/b] ] Italy, Germany and Sweden are examining whether U.S. agents might have broken local laws by detaining terrorist suspects on European soil and subjecting them to abuse or maltreatment... Developing...

[walker 0]

Hi all

More on the item mentioned by Akira.

The Italians are investigating a kidnaping by CIA members:

Quote[/b] ]Europeans Investigate CIA Role in Abductions

Suspects Possibly Taken To Nations That Torture

By Craig Whitlock

Washington Post Foreign Service

Sunday, March 13, 2005; Page A01

MILAN -- A radical Egyptian cleric known as Abu Omar was walking to a Milan mosque for noon prayers in February 2003 when he was grabbed on the sidewalk by two men, sprayed in the face with chemicals and stuffed into a van. He hasn't been seen since.

Milan investigators, however, now appear to be close to identifying his kidnappers. Last month, officials showed up at Aviano Air Base in northern Italy and demanded records of any American planes that had flown into or out of the joint U.S.-Italian military installation around the time of the abduction. They also asked for logs of vehicles that had entered the base.

Italian authorities suspect the Egyptian was the target of a CIA-sponsored operation known as rendition, in which terrorism suspects are forcibly taken for interrogation to countries where torture is practiced.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30275-2005Mar12.html

with the existing bad relations between the US and Italy over the shooting of one of their agents and then atempted cover up and blaming of the Agent for his own death this not so much shooting self in foot by TBA as hacking it off with several blows of a blunt axe.

Cases are being investigated by the police in Italy Germany and Sweden so far.

Kind Regards Walker

[theavonlady 2]

Juts for reference, the same Abu Omar is possibly/likely the one mentioned in this 1/2004 Guardian article. Snippet:

Quote[/b] ]Zarqawi is believed to be in Iran or Iraq. However European investigators have discovered that one of his key lieutenants is an Iraqi Kurd known only as Fouad, a cleric based in Syria, who handles the volunteer suicide bombers sent from Europe to launch attacks in Iraq.

Italian investigators made the first breakthrough in the hunt for Zarqawi's operatives. Just after 10pm on the evening of 15 June, 2002, an unidentified Arab visitor from Germany - believed to be a senior figure in the militants' network - arrived at a mosque in the Via Quaranta, Milan. He began by warning the mosque's Egyptian imam, Abu Omar, about increased surveillance. He was unaware that Italian police were listening to his every word.

Transcripts obtained by The Observer reveal that the visitor spoke of a project needing 'intelligent and highly educated people'. Already, the visitor said, that 'where the jihad part is concerned there was a battalion of 25 to 26 units'. It is these 'units', believed by investigators to mean potential suicide bombers, that the authorities knew they had to find.

The visitor then began a review of recent developments. He stressed that 'the thread begins in Saudi Arabia', where the bulk of funds apparently still comes from. 'Don't ever worry about money, because Saudi Arabia's money is your money,' the visitor says. He then refers to recent 'confidential' meetings in Eastern Europe with Islamic militant leaders.

'Now Europe is controlled via air and land, but in Poland and Bulgaria and countries that aren't part of the European Community everything is easy,' he says. 'First of all they are corrupt, you can buy them with dollars...[secondly] they are less-controlled countries, there aren't too many eyes.'

The man named Austria as a launch pad for attacks. 'The country from which everything takes off is Austria. There I met all of the sheikhs and all our brothers are there ... it has become the country of international communications. It has become the country of contacts.'

Poland is a particularly important location too, the man says and names a 'Sheikh Abd al-Aziz', before boasting: 'His organisation is stunning.'

After translating the conversation, held in Arabic, Italian investigators immediately relayed the information to counterparts elsewhere in Europe. The British security services swung into action. The transcripts also reveal the continuing importance of London.

'The nerve centre is still London,' the man says and hints that there are many recruits from the UK: 'We have Albanians, Swiss [and] British.'

EDIT: If you can't view the Washington Post article because you're not registered, you can read it at MSNBC (6 pages).

[walker 0]

Hi all

Shocking news that up to 9,000 people have been kidnaped by the CIA under this system and that they have included completley innocent people who have been spirited away by something more akin to to the worst exesses of Stalin's KGB or Hitler's Gestapo has been printed in the Guardian.

Quote[/b] ]'They beat me from all sides'

A German car salesman says that a year ago he was kidnapped in Europe, beaten and flown to a US-controlled jail in Afghanistan. Now the German government is collecting evidence to back up his story. James Meek hears Khaled el-Masri's account of life in America's secret offshore prison network

Friday January 14, 2005

The Guardian

A man is walking alone along a mountain path in the darkness. He is carrying a suitcase. He seems frightened, tired and confused. He has long hair and a long beard, but they are untidy, as if he did not grow them voluntarily. He turns a bend and meets three men carrying Kalashnikovs.

The man shows them his passport. It indicates that he is a German citizen, born in Lebanon, called Khaled el-Masri. Using poor English, he tells them that he does not know where he is. They tell him that he is on the Albanian border, close to Serbia and Macedonia, and that he is there illegally since he doesn't have an Albanian stamp in his passport.

The story that el-Masri tells them by way of explanation, on this evening in late May 2004, is extraordinary: a story of how an unemployed German car salesman from the town of Ulm went on a New Year's holiday to Macedonia, was seized by Macedonian police at the border, held incommunicado for weeks without charge, then beaten, stripped, shackled and blindfolded and flown to a jail in Afghanistan, run by Afghans but controlled by Americans. Five months after first being seized, he says, still with no explanation or charge, he was flown back to Europe and dumped in an unknown country which turned out to be Albania

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1390257,00.html

The case that up to 9000 were kidnapped was first brought to light in in the washington post.

Quote[/b] ]An investigation by the Washington Post last year suggested that the US held 9,000 people overseas in an archipelago of known prisons (such as Abu Ghraib in Iraq) and unknown ones run by the Pentagon, the CIA or other organisations. But this figure does not include others "rendered" to third-party governments who then act as subcontractors for Washington, enabling the US to effectively torture detainees while technically denying that it carries out torture.

Ibid

among those kidnapped and brought to other countries for torture are said to be people from US; rendition is an admited part of US policy

http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2003/2pet/7pet/2003-0485.pet.app.html

However as I stated the policy smacks of a police state and the worst exesses of the KGB and the Gestapo and is in clear violation of other nations sovereignty.

Kind Regards Walker

[theavonlady 2]

The case that up to 9000 were kidnapped was first brought to light in in the washington post.

The Washington Post article does not say that 9000 people were "kidnapped". Of the 9000, about 8000 were prisoners in Iraq.

The original WP article can be seen here.

I don't think you have any idea what the Gestapo was. Your analogy is frivolus.

[chops 111]

Im sick of hearing about terrorism. It's not that big a global problem when you consider the number of people dying of AIDS in Africa or even starving to death. I think the US State department released a report last year, Im sure the number of deaths was much less than 10,000. How many people died from car accidents or from the effects of air pollution?

This doesnt mean I condone terrorism in any form.

But it's strange how the US military can kill 40 + people at a wedding in Iraq with an airstrike and the government says "Whoops!, but were at war and accidents happen" and still spout off about how the US is "a beacon of hope" to the rest of the world.

How many civilians have died as a result of US and it's allies military action since Sept 11th? I wager a fair few more than on Sept 11th. Which I feel compelled to state, for fear of imprisonment, was as much of an attrocity as what the US and my own government (Australia) sees fit to visit on Iraq.

"A terrorist is a man with a bomb, but no airforce to drop it" from "Rogue State" by William Blum.

[QBA69 1]

Im sick of hearing about terrorism. It's not that big a global problem when you consider the number of people dying of AIDS in Africa or even starving to death.

Imo, you're wrong at one point - terrorism as it is today is a global, serious and highly difficult to solve problem. And the number of its victims ain't the most important issue here. The main problem is its form and range but also the way the world deals or I'd rather say doesn't deal with it. As "der bastler" aptly noticed in his post at earlier page - "aims of terrorists: reduce our freedom and security, cause fear, get own goals [...]" - we are losing on this war.

And I guess it's high time for all politicians and people involved in to reconsider the current methods of fighting back the global terrorism.

[walker 0]

The case that up to 9000 were kidnapped was first brought to light in in the washington post.

The Washington Post article does not say that 9000 people were "kidnapped". Of the 9000, about 8000 were prisoners in Iraq.

The original WP article can be seen here.

I don't think you have any idea what the Gestapo was. Your analogy is frivolus.

Hi Avon

For the record those are the prisoners in US custody the article mentioned says those taken and just dropped in foreign torture chambers is in exess of the 9000.

I know perfectly as well as anyone what the Gestapo were.

A bunch of people who kidnapped innocent people imprisoned and tortured them based on a philosophy of hatred at the behest of a corrupt regime voted in on a wave of nationalism subsequent to the bombing of a national landmark, the Reichstag, which was blamed on outsiders but was actualy commited by them.

For those who do not no what the Nazi's did and how they achieved power try here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

Avon those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

When innocents are kidnapped imprisoned and tortured there are those of us who shout loudly against it, as I have done through out my life, and those of us who let it slide.

I have a question for you Avon: Are you one who shouts loudly against it or one who has joined the ones who let it slide?

Kind Regards Walker

[der bastler 0]

A bunch of people who kidnapped innocent people imprisoned and tortured them based on a philosophy of hatred at the behest of a corrupt regime voted in on a wave of nationalism subsequent to the bombing of a national landmark, the Reichstag, which was blamed on outsiders but was actualy commited by them.

For those who do not no what the Nazi's did and how they achieved power try here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

[Offtopic]

"Reichstag" is an old term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_%28institution%29

Irony of history: The Nazis disliked the Reichstag building because it was and is the symbol of early democracy in Germany. After the fire it was not used by the Nazis except for film sessions. During WW2 it was part of the Charite and served as maternity room...

Sidenote2: The Nazis seized power legally. You could say they used an exploit of the program "Weimarer Republic 1.0". Keep this in mind and review the actions of governments today... "Ye be warned"[/Offtopic]

[miles teg 1]

Im sick of hearing about terrorism. It's not that big a global problem when you consider the number of people dying of AIDS in Africa or even starving to death.

Imo, you're wrong at one point - terrorism as it is today is a global, serious and highly difficult to solve problem. And the number of its victims ain't the most important issue here. The main problem is its form and range but also the way the world deals or I'd rather say doesn't deal with it. As "der bastler" aptly noticed in his post at earlier page - "aims of terrorists: reduce our freedom and security, cause fear, get own goals [...]" - we are losing on this war.

And I guess it's high time for all politicians and people involved in to reconsider the current methods of fighting back the global terrorism.

Actually its not that difficult to solve. There is just a lack of political will to solve it in any other way then using military force. Politicians refuse to think of any other solution.

If you read way back in my past posts I go into depth on alternative solutions to counter-terrorism.

I don't really want to retype all that, but if you can't find it, I'll discuss it a little bit. It is this field that I'm currently trying to find employment...but sadly without much luck.

It seems the US government is only interested in military solutions, not in common sense solutions in combatting terrorism at its root sources.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

Imo, you're wrong at one point - terrorism as it is today is a global, serious and highly difficult to solve problem. And the number of its victims ain't the most important issue here. The main problem is its form and range but also the way the world deals or I'd rather say doesn't deal with it. As "der bastler" aptly noticed in his post at earlier page - "aims of terrorists: reduce our freedom and security, cause fear, get own goals .

I think the main problem is the threat that the fear poses rather than terrorism itself. It is a problem of politicians creating a climate of fear where people are willing to sacrifice any civil right, just to feel safe - even if the threat is just a dark fantasy.

In the US, thousands of people have been arrested on terror charges. You can count the number of convictions on your hands - and most of those have been overturned in the end. Yet people are quite supportive of "anti terror" laws, that short-circuit the checks and balances of the legal system and are saying "Oh, but it's only for terroists. Don't you agree that terrorists should have no civili rights?". And it's a global problem. In the UK over 700 people have since 2001 been charged for planning terrorist actions, and only four have been convicted so far. And those convicted have been so for other crimes. Yet, the government is now accusing the opposition for being "soft on terror", because they wanted to impose a time limit on the terror laws (that allow for serious violation of traditional civil rights).

The most rotten and destructive idea at the core is the precautionary principle: that you have to act before something happens; that politicians have to imagine the worst case scenario and act to prevent it, without having any evidence support it. As Condoleezza Rice put it "We don't want the 'smoking gun' to be a mushroom cloud".

In effect this gives power to the people with the most outrageous, most morbid fantasies. If you can imagine something more terrible than others can, then things will be done your way. You just have to scare people enough and they will follow.

[chops 111]

Well said Denoir!

Why claim to represent an alternative to the world the terrorists propose? As evidenced by the content of Walker's post at the top of this page, there doesnt seem that much difference between the world the "Crazies" like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney represent and that of the pathologically insane murderers like Mohammed Atta and co. Only difference is who's in charge.

@ Miles Teg

I agree with you that terrorism needs to be fought at the root cause, ie poverty, disenfranchisement, desperation etc. But none of the Sept 11th highjackers were from this group. In fact I think they were all middleclass and well educated. Best of luck with the job hunting too! The world desperately needs a few level heads to be heard.

@Voodzia

You define the "aims of terrorists: reduce our freedom and security, cause fear, get own goals [...]". Sounds like the ironically named Patriot Act, the colour coded alerts that tell US citizens just how scared to be and the conquest of Iraq and its oil (which I heard rumoured that Saddam was going to start selling oil in Euros, which would have gutted the US economy)

From the point of view of countries with an axe to grind agianst the US, I dont think any of the nationalities present in the 11th of September attacks had nearly as much to complain about as say Laos, Vietnam, Chile, IRAQ, El Salvador, Cuba etc etc.

[QBA69 1]

Actually its not that difficult to solve. There is just a lack of political will to solve it in any other way then using military force. Politicians refuse to think of any other solution.

I'm sorry but I just don't have time to browse through this huge thread to find your past posts on this specific topic. So if you could summarize the main points of your view about some alternative solutions to the problem of terrorism I'd be grateful.

Btw, could you tell me why most of politicians (not just in USA but also in for example UK or Russia) are trying to solve this problem using only military force? Haven't they learnt anything from the history - e.g. the Israeli - Palestinian conflict to name the most vivid example.

EDIT:

I guess that "denoir" answered my question. And if he is right (at least partly) then another question arise - why do we (or most of us) allow and tolerate such methods?

[QBA69 1]

Why claim to represent an alternative to the world the terrorists propose? As evidenced by the content of Walker's post at the top of this page, there doesnt seem that much difference between the world the "Crazies" like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney represent and that of the pathologically insane murderers like Mohammed Atta and co. Only difference is who's in charge.

I assume that you're kidding, right? Our world ain't that bad yet ;)

I agree with you that terrorism needs to be fought at the root cause, ie poverty, disenfranchisement, desperation etc. But none of the Sept 11th highjackers were from this group. In fact I think they were all middleclass and well educated.

As you can see the problem is a bit more complicated. If these so-called root causes weren't the main motivation for the terrorists who attacked USA on 9/11 then what was it? Anger, an act of desperation or maybe demonstration of power?

You define the "aims of terrorists: reduce our freedom and security, cause fear, get own goals [...]". Sounds like the ironically named Patriot Act, the colour coded alerts that tell US citizens just how scared to be and the conquest of Iraq and its oil (which I heard rumoured that Saddam was going to start selling oil in Euros, which would have gutted the US economy)

I didn't define these aims of terrorists - I just quoted them from a post of "der bastler" - see page no. 84.

[miles teg 1]

Chops...actually those are not the only root sources I was talking about.  The roots also include the modern version of fundamentalist Islam that is rapidly becoming mainstream Islam even though its teachings go directly against many parts of the Qu'ran.  There are many ways to subvert militant Islamic groups which I will speak of below.

Voodzia:  

The methods I speak of are fairly straightforward for the most part.  However they are not easy.

The most difficult part of alternative methods in counter-terrorism is that they require a fundamental shift in viewing terrorism.   There MUST be an acknowledgement that American foreign policy is very antagonist towards Muslims and fuels much of the terrorist propaganda.  Our invasion of Iraq was a MASSIVE boost for Al-Qaeda and new Al-Aqaeda inspired organizations all over the world.

However aside from this here are the more practical steps that can be done to combat terrorism in a non-violent manner.

1.  The US government needs to organize respected Islamic scholars who are opposed terrorism and who are actively speaking out against terrorism.  These groups are small and poorly funded and have very little voice.   With the help of these scholars, teams can be formed to craft powerful counter-propaganda to the Al-Qaeda propaganda that floods the internet and the airwaves all over the Middle East.  Right now the United States government is doing almost nothing to counter Al-Qaeda propaganda.   The frustrating thing is that even a novice in Islamic theology like myself, can counter the crap that these so called "Al-Qaeda scholars" put out.  

It would be quite easy to develop a internet blitz strategy as well as create TV, newspaper, and radio commercials countering Al-Qaeda teachings and depiciting Osama Bin Laden and those who follow him as the worst of sinners... hypocrits...and almost certainly going to hell to face punishment for using the sacred name of Allah to kill women and children and other innocent people.   These commercials can do much more then simply lash out at Al-Qaeda...rather they can take the morale high ground and ask for Osama Bin Laden to not listen to his carnal desires and ego, but to repent of his sins and surrender himself to the mercy of a international tribunal.  Mercy must be a strong component of such counter-propaganda.    Poweful music and, if on TV, poweful visual images could accompany the counter-propaganda.  They would also show the United States as actually being a friend of Islam by allowing for the freedom of expression of Islam in a democracy where no one person will tell them how to practice their faith and where their Imams are free from the corruption so often associated with politics.  Instead they will advise the politicians... and be the guardians of ethnics to watch for corruption so that the politicians truly serve the people.  In other words such commercials can show how democracy upholds Islam and how it is perfectly compatible with Islam.

Other commercials can also show examples of honorable Jihad such as the fight against the Crusaders by Saladin...an Islamic leader who even the Crusaders respected and who treated the Jews and Christians of Jerusalem with respect and tolerance.    Also verse from the Qu'ran and Hadiths depicting what the small Jihad (war of defense) as it actually is (state level war and not bands of terrorists) can be depicted as well showing all the rules of warfare according to Islamic codes of warfare.

Other things that can be shown are such things as the surviving document at the St. Catherine Monastery on Mount Sanai which was sent by the Prophet Mohammed giving Christians sanctuary, respect, and protection by Muslims.  This is one of the few surviving documents from this period, but it is a powerful example of the fact that Mohammed did not force Christians to convert to Islam or wage war on Christianity (or Jews for that matter).  

Below is a translation of the letter and a pic of it:

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."  (http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html)

Other writings (in the Hadiths if I remember correctly) that show that he tolerated the Jewish tribes living in Arabia and did not destroy them even though he could have done so easily.

At any rate, these are just some examples of things that can be done.  

However there are two more parts:

2.  Reform of captured terrorist.

Currently in Yemen there is a Supreme Court judge named Hammoud al-Hitar who has successfully been reforming captured terrorists in Yemen.  I believe that his program can be further developed and improved upon so that it can be duplicated all over the Middle East.  His methods essentially consist of teaching captured Islamic militants that the interpretations of the Qu'ran taught by them by fanatical militant Imams are wrong and that if they stay with such beliefs, they are in fact putting themselves in jeapordy of entering paradise when they die.

But he has very good methods for conducting dialog with these extermists.  He starts off by simply listening to them and being respectful to their beliefs.  Only after a relationship is developed does the Judge or one of his assistants begin to slowly bring up questions that force the prisoner to examine his beliefs carefully but in a non-threatening manner.   It is here were further psychological tactics could be added to enhance these types of programs based off of similar "deprogramming" programs done on cult-members here in the United States.  

3.  The third alternative measure is specific in regards to the Iraq problem.  To combat the poor morale of Iraqi troops and police and to combat terrorist infilitrators, I believe that the Iraqi Army should begin incorporating moderate Islamic teachings within their training emphasising mercy and honor.

Precombat Dhiker (ritual chanting of Qu'ran verses) could be used to psych up the Iraqi troops before an assault and to scare the enemy.  Also a mandatory call to the enemy would go out asking them to drop their arms and to join their fellow Muslim brothers to rebuild Iraq as an Islamic democracy.

Uniforms should also incorporate Islamic symbology and colors.    Post combat rituals can include such things as a public praying over the corpses of dead Iraqi militants as they are found where they fell with an cloth with verses from the Qu'ran pertaining to God's mercy draped on them.  

This type of honorable behavior will I think shame insurgents deeply.  Shame and Honor are two extremely powerful concepts in Islamic culture.  If you can manipulate those concepts you can have a strong influence upon Islamic societies especially if you combine that with a strong understainding of their religion and religious principles.

However there must also be safeguards as well put in to insure that such programs do not get corrupted by Al-Qaeda as they are masters of propaganda.    So I would envision such programs in the Iraqi military beginning with experimental programs in elite units.

One nice secondary benefit is that because of the exposure these soldiers would get from these types of Islamic interpretations emphasizing tolerance, I believe many of the Al-Qaeda infiltrators in the Iraqi military would begin to realize that they are on the wrong side of not only history, but of their own religion.  

In summary I believe that these methods I mention above as well as other similar methods can provide a REAL solution for fighting and ultimately winning the war against terrorism.

As a Cajun Muslim friend of mine once said:

"Make your enemy your friend and you have destroyed your enemy."

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

While I think your sentiment is noble, I very much doubt it would work. There are plenty of examples of Muslim on Muslim violence without any western powers being involved. Not to mention the Shia/Sunni schism that has led to violence in the past.

If you look at any religion, you'll see that the infighting between various sects has been as bloody as the fight against an external enemy.

[miles teg 1]

The point is not to get Muslims to be all one big happy family.  The point is simply to focus on the most extreme elements and subvert and undermine their ideologies using their own religion. This would be accomplished in a very new way using a massive multi-media campaign backed by solid Islamic theology and the best of Western marketing techiques tailored to Muslims.  Hopefully that coupled with democracy will result in less in-fighting between different Islamic sects as well.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[QBA69 1]

There MUST be an acknowledgement that American foreign policy is very antagonist towards Muslims and fuels much of the terrorist propaganda. Our invasion of Iraq was a MASSIVE boost for Al-Qaeda and new Al-Aqaeda inspired organizations all over the world.

I totally agee with you at this point. It seems to me that US government has completely gone mad after the attack on 9/11. And the invasion on Iraq is just its sad consequence to me.

However aside from this here are the more practical steps that can be done to combat terrorism in a non-violent manner.

1. The US government needs to organize respected Islamic scholars who are opposed terrorism and who are actively speaking out against terrorism. These groups are small and poorly funded and have very little voice. With the help of these scholars, teams can be formed to craft powerful counter-propaganda to the Al-Qaeda propaganda that floods the internet and the airwaves all over the Middle East. Right now the United States government is doing almost nothing to counter Al-Qaeda propaganda. The frustrating thing is that even a novice in Islamic theology like myself, can counter the crap that these so called "Al-Qaeda scholars" put out.

It would be quite easy to develop a internet blitz strategy as well as create TV, newspaper, and radio commercials

When talking about this "massive multi-media campaign backed by solid Islamic theology and the best of Western marketing techiques [...]" (a quotation from your next post) we must remember that most of Islamic countries are poor and people who live there don't have access to the mass-media or Internet. And I suppose that these people are the main target of interest to the terrorists. And till these people be living in poverty till any "multi-media campaign" won't affect them.

However, I'd say that such campaign could (and should) be carry out in the USA and Europe and should focuses on Islam and Qur'an. Imo, after 9/11 many people are afraid of Muslims only because of they are Muslims or Arabs. And this is mainly caused by our ignorance about this world's second-largest religion. Common awareness of what Islam is could be helpful in putting some pressure on politicians to change their attitude towards terrorism.

3. The third alternative measure is specific in regards to the Iraq problem. To combat the poor morale of Iraqi troops and police and to combat terrorist infilitrators, I believe that the Iraqi Army should begin incorporating moderate Islamic teachings within their training emphasising mercy and honor.

I think that present situation in Iraq ain't any serious problem in this case. Imo, the main problem there are the US soldiers and their allies who stay there a way too long. Their presence there provokes terrorists and Saddam's supporters to attack not only soldiers and policemen but also civilians blaming them for their consent to presence of foreign military forces. I think that Iraqis are able to cope with their problems by themselves and they don't need our help anymore - or I should rather say they don't need that kind of help we're offering them today - too many rockets and soldiers and too few medicines and doctors, I'd say.

In summary I believe that these methods I mention above as well as other similar methods can provide a REAL solution for fighting and ultimately winning the war against terrorism.

I really don't know if these above-mentioned methods would be sufficient to overpower global terrorism but I'm sure that they'd be extremely helpful.

However, there is one serious problem concernig them - what to do to put them into practice? How to persuade politicians that these methods are a real alternative to military solutions?

As a Cajun Muslim friend of mine once said:

"Make your enemy your friend and you have destroyed your enemy."

It's true but I'm not sure if we really want Muslims to become our friends and vice versa - do they want us to become their friends? Imo, there is too much antipathy, ill-feelings, incomprehension, intolerance, envy and hatred on either side now and I'm afraid that it will take many years before this situation be normalized a bit.