Swedish foreign minister attacked

[iNeo 0]

you generally avoid to take actions against somebody who's got a knife if you don't have anything stronger to oppose , that's basic survival for you

I did say Although you can understand that when the bad guy is armed. Better to help the victim then.

That's basic reading for you.

[turms 0]

I remember taht this summer couple of nutcases did acts of violences in Stockholm, isolated cases though, 1 guy drove a car in a small street filled with people, and 1 guy rampaged in the center of the city with a ironbar.Then there was a conversation in the newspapers about the swedish healthcare,and its abilitys to face mental illnesses...but unfortunatly there are allways sick people willing to harm people...hope she gets well.

[denoir 0]

and 1 guy rampaged in the center of the city with a ironbar.

Not really in the center of the city but in one of the suburbs. Tumba, or somewhere around there IIRC.

[Longinius 1]

"Not a chance. A couple of days before the election. He knows where Lindh is and after stabbing her he succesfully disappears? At NK in broad daylight? Not exactly how a looney or a junkie would act. Had this been an act of random violence they would have arrested him a long time ago."

A crime of opportunity. Those things DO happen. Imagine a pissed of, wound up, high as a kite moron seeing Lindh walk past. Recently having seen her debate, or been triggered by something else, he chases her down and stabs her.

As for how loonies would act, we have seen acts not totally different. Just because it hasnt happened to high ranking politicians before doesnt mean it never would.

We have seen actors targeted by random lunatics, smaller scale politicians etc. Or just random citizens.

Yes, it can be political. But right now, I dont think so. (Or maybe, I dont hope so and confuse it. Not totally unlikely. Anyway, seems so far from the Sweden I know...or knew).

[denoir 0]

A crime of opportunity. Those things DO happen.

They do not happen, and that's the point. People don't get  stabbed at NK. And then before the Euro election, one of the leading proponents gets attacked? Coincidence? Possible, but very improbable.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, it can be political. But right now, I dont think so. (Or maybe, I dont hope so and confuse it. Not totally unlikely. Anyway, seems so far from the Sweden I know...or knew).

What about Palme? If it could happen in '86 , why not in '03? And do you believe that the Palme murder was a random act of violence? Or perhaps an accident "He tripped and fell and fired six rounds into the PM, all by accident!". Possible, but improbable.

Having said that, I really hope you're right.

[Longinius 1]

Well, Palme was a bit different. I think there were people who had a heck of a lot more to gain, or not lose, by killing Palme than by killing Lindh.

"They do not happen, and that's the point. People don't get stabbed at NK. And then before the Euro election, one of the leading proponents gets attacked? Coincidence? Possible, but very improbable."

There are many things that didnt use to happen, but do anyway. And as for it happening at NK, well, I would be suprised if it happened in a slum. After all, I think Lindh probably only moves around in "weatlthy" areas. So, if it happens, it will be strange where ever it is.

[denoir 0]

Update:

Things are looking really bad. They've been operating for over four hours now. She suffers from very serious internal bleeding and her liver has been damaged too. The situation is apparently far worse than was first reported.

The police have found the knife used in the attack and have gotten "a good description" of the perpetrator. Hopefully they'll get the fucker

[iNeo 0]

Difficult in a way to understand that this may become as historical to Sweden as the Palme assassination, in case she dies. It's not like this is gonna change anything. So unnecessary

[hellfish6 7]

Does anybody know medical lingo? What does "critical but not life threatening" mean?

It means the wounds require immediate attention, but they did not sever any major arteries or cause any irrepairable damage. If she had been stabbed in the head, lungs, or stomach (the actual stomach), that would be a critical and life threatening injury. It sounds like her worst injury was sustained to the abdominal region - around her stomach - but did not cause severe damage other than bleeding.

[denoir 0]

Difficult in a way to understand that this may become as historical to Sweden as the Palme assassination, in case she dies. It's not like this is gonna change anything. So unnecessary

It might have a profound influence on the coming election. Especially if it turns out that it was a politically motivated attack.

Basic concept:

Quote[/b] ]

She's bleeding to death because of her belief. Are you really going to vote agianst her and make her death unnecessary?

Remember Pim Fortuyn? After his assasination, his party went from having less than 10% backing to having over 60% (or something similar, don't recall the exact numbers).

[hellfish6 7]

Update:

Things are looking really bad. They've been operating for over four hours now. She suffers from very serious internal bleeding and her liver has been damaged too. The situation is apparently far worse than was first reported.  

The police have found the knife used in the attack and have gotten "a good description" of the perpetrator. Hopefully they'll get the fucker  

Well, she was concious for a long time when they found her, which indicates that she did not have a massive loss of blood. The fact that she was in surgery for four hours doesn't necessarily mean that she's worse off than first reported - we don't know how many stab wounds there are, how deep they went, etc. Suturing wounds is by no means a quick and easy task. I'm sure they're taking their time and being thorough, also checking to ensure that the wounds were not made with an infected or otherwise "dirty" blade.

From what I've been reading, there doesn't seem to be cause for too much concern - I am willing to believe that she will be holding a press conference within a week.

It's a real shame. I'd never really read much about her (just the fact that the Swedish Foreign Minister called Bush a "Lone Cowboy" once, though I don't recall the report naming her) but she seems like a brilliant woman, a rare politician with common sense and ideals she believes in. As such, people like her make tempting targets to all too many opposing factions within society...

[denoir 0]

Well, she was concious for a long time when they found her, which indicates that she did not have a massive loss of blood. The fact that she was in surgery for four hours doesn't necessarily mean that she's worse off than first reported - we don't know how many stab wounds there are, how deep they went, etc. Suturing wounds is by no means a quick and easy task. I'm sure they're taking their time and being thorough, also checking to ensure that the wounds were not made with an infected or otherwise "dirty" blade.

From what I've been reading, there doesn't seem to be cause for too much concern - I am willing to believe that she will be holding a press conference within a week.

I hope you are right, but now they're talking about "serious damage of her internal organs". Apparently her liver is in very bad shape and they can't control the internal bleeding.

Quote[/b] ]It's a real shame. I'd never really read much about her (just the fact that the Swedish Foreign Minister called Bush a "Lone Cowboy" once, though I don't recall the report naming her) but she seems like a brilliant woman, a rare politician with common sense and ideals she believes in. As such, people like her make tempting targets to all too many opposing factions within society...  

I attended a lecture a few years back that she held (on the EU and environmental issues). I was very impressed both by her intelligence and sense of humor. It would be a real shame for Sweden to lose her. It's also common knowledge that she was selected to succeed Göran Persson (or PM) as the head of the social democrat party, once he retired.

The police just made a statement that this was not an act of random violence but that it was premeditated. The assailant was waiting for her.

[Longinius 1]

"Hopefully they'll get the fucker"

Lets hope they do a Jackie Arklöv on him, big time.

- Ooops, I tripped and accidently shot the perp in the stomach. My bad...

[Bluesman 0]

Well, Palme was a bit different. I think there were people who had a heck of a lot more to gain, or not lose, by killing Palme than by killing Lindh.

What did they gain? There was a social democratic rule before and after the murder. If anything the S gained support from it. Contrary to what some believe (since I met the man personally a few times) Palme was 100% Social Democrat and nothing else. He just used colorful language and was like Bildt an exceptional rethoric genius.

Like the murder on Pim Fortyn showed. Political murders are the worst way to make your point.

BM

[Longinius 1]

"What did they gain? There was a social democratic rule before and after the murder. If anything the S gained support from it. Contrary to what some believe (since I met the man personally a few times) Palme was 100% Social Democrat and nothing else. He just used colorful language and was like Bildt an exceptional rethoric genius."

Depends on who "they" are, doesnt it? However, Palme wasnt your run of the mill, average social democrat. So even if it was a social democratic rule afterwards, people might still have gained by getting rid of Palme.

[Bluesman 0]

Depends on who "they" are, doesnt it? However, Palme wasnt your run of the mill, average social democrat. So even if it was a social democratic rule afterwards, people might still have gained by getting rid of Palme.

A political murders purpose is to get rid of the politics not the person. The politics was exactly the same before as after Palme and wouldnt have differed in any way. Well internationally perhaps since he had his mind set on trying to solve the Israeli/Palestinian situation (and he was in a good position having good friends on both sides). However I don't buy any "international conspiracy" either. He wasnt any form of decision maker, just aired his opinions openly.

Which is why I have no problem accepting the standard explanation about a lone killer.

BM

[Longinius 1]

"A political murders purpose is to get rid of the politics not the person."

Well, sometimes the person is a key instrument in implementing those politics. And Palme was a crucial key figure, that tried to achieve much internationally.

I am quite sure this is the reason he was assassinated.

[denoir 0]

Ok an update: They're doing microsurgery on her liver now which can take many more hours. Apparently they have to repair a lot of very small damaged blood vessles. There will be a medical press conference within a couple of hours, but right now they're pretty much unwilling to discuss how serious her condition is.

[bn880 5]

I think they meant to say, critical and life threatening condition. The suspense of not knowing if someone will survive.....

[denoir 0]

They're still operating on her but they refused to elaborate beyond "very grave condition".

They operated on her very quickly after she was stabbed. Fortunately the Karolinska hospital was only a couple of minutes away and they're incidentally one of the world's most prominent hospitals in liver microsurgery. They said that had she been somewhere else she would most likely have beend dead within an hour.

Anyway, they operated and it looked good but when they closed her up the internal bleeding started again and her condition deteriorated rapidly. So they opened up again and proceeded with the microsurgery.

Now that is a lenghty procedure, but it's still not a good sign IMO when you have to operate over 10 hours on a person. And they are still operating..

[Major Gripe 0]

Trauma to the liver is one of the worst injuries you can sustain, because it is so complex, connected to the arterial system and so bloody important. If it is damaged seriously she might never fully recover.

Having said that, I dont think this will have a major influence on the public vote, peoples concern for their own wealth and health will take priority, heads will rule hearts I believe.

[denoir 0]

After some extensive searching on the web I managed to find this:

Quote[/b] ]

Most hospitals adhere to American Hospital Association guidelines when describing a patient's condition to the media. Those guidelines instruct hospital spokespersons to give out only a one-word description of a patient's condition. The recommended conditions, which are excerpted from the AHA's "General Guide for the Release of Information on the Condition of Patients," are:

Undetermined: Patient awaiting physician and assessment.

Good: Vital signs are stable and within normal limits. Patient is conscious and comfortable. Indicators are excellent.

Fair: Vital signs are stable and within normal limits. Patient is conscious, but may be uncomfortable. Indicators are favorable.

Serious: Vital signs may be unstable and not within normal limits. Patient is acutely ill. Indicators are questionable.

Critical: Vital signs are unstable and not within normal limits.

Patient may be unconscious. Indicators are unfavorable.

The term "vital signs" means indicators such as blood pressure, pulse, temperature, and respiration. The one-word descriptions are not medical terms, and they are more art than science. They're based on a doctor's best judgment of a patient's condition, as relayed to hospital spokespersons.

Of course there's no guarantee that Swedish doctors use the same conventions.

[denoir 0]

Anna Lindh has died.

[smogmorph 0]

She's dead!

[hellfish6 7]

Oh man... that is seriously depressing. I don't remember being this shocked and saddened by someone's death in a long time - and I never even met her or even heard of her until the stabbing.

My sympathies go to Sweden and her family.