Gun control debate thread

[EiZei 0]

It was featured on "Bowling for Columbine".

[Renagade 0]

lol if they sold rounds at $5000 a pop the bad guys would just start making their own

Is airsoft also banned in australia and what about replicas?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]I still don't get it why "liberal" is an insult over there in the US...

Actually I'm in Canada, if you were referring to me.......

In Canada: liberal party = socialists.

[NurEinMensch 0]

Quote[/b] ]I still don't get it why "liberal" is an insult over there in the US...

Actually I'm in Canada, if you were referring to me.......

In Canada: liberal party = socialists.

Hehe funnny, try calling a member of the German Liberal Party a socialist... good luck!

[canukausiuka 1]

Quote[/b] ]I still don't get it why "liberal" is an insult over there in the US...

Actually I'm in Canada, if you were referring to me.......

In Canada: liberal party = socialists.

Yeah, it's getting sad here in the US, where the liberals will take one set of freedoms, the conservatives another set.  And with the exception of maybe libertarians (did i spell that right?), nobody is working towards less government and more freedom.  But both parties more or less claim to represent freedoms.  I am move conservative than anything else, but I want the government to try something that has been necessary in commerce to keep things running: downsizing!

Politics are just so screwed up in general.  

and for the record: I believe people have a right to own and use firearms, but they should have a level of respect for them. A licensing system would be acceptable to me, but only if things ended there, and I am afraid they wouldn't. Hell, gun control is as bad or worse than politics over here. There are nuts on both sides of the argument, and they have forgotten how to compromise!

Oh, and I do have friends who are both staunch conservatives and die-hard liberals.  I just have to keep them seperate  

[Major Fubar 0]

Is airsoft also banned in australia and what about replicas?

No airsoft here in Oz, as far as I'm aware. Replicas require their own special licenses, in my state anyway (in some states you can buy them over the counter). In fact, even if you have a license for normal guns (i.e. working guns), you still need a seperate, special license to own replicas...you can see how well thought out and logical our gun laws are here, yes?

@ ozanzac - No, I'm in Vic. Same laws though, I think...

[BraTTy 0]

OMG you will all slam and hate me but this is my opinion only and I havent voted in forever and don't worry about my opinions.

I live in a a small state in the US and hunting is bigtime here.I used to hunt but I havent done so in a while.

Throughout my life even as a kid i recall playing in my backyard while shotgun bb's hit our house.

When older I bought some property and was on my way to my garage while some bb's hit the garage and my coffee cup I was holding in my hand.I even so chased that drunk hunter and he ran (chasing a drunk hunter thats armed with a shotgun,I know its stupid)

At least 3 times in my life I recall stray shotgun bb's coming my way.And every year during deer hunting usually,peoples cattle,horses,animals and etc get accidentaly shot (not just by americans,canadians come down and drink and shoot too)

I have a feeling that very few people are responsible enough to operate firearms (police even have accidents)

And for what reason do people need to hunt,I guess for the sport (sport? your armed ,they arent)

But nowadays people go to the store for food,we have some local indians that hunt and fish for food and its their right (even without liscenses)

We dont wanna go into discussion about what rights natives should have or such

I am also for our constitutional right to bear arms

This is only my opinions and don't worry I would never vote against our right to bear arms,I know you will slam me now

I don't think guns are necessary for civilians anymore

[USSoldier11B 0]

Those comics in the first post really had me rolling.

NRA all the way.

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

Quote[/b] ]Firearms Facts Provided by the NRA Institute for Legislative Action - NRA-ILA

FIREARMS FACTS:

GENERAL NUMBER OF Approx. 200 million firearms, GUNS IN U.S.: including 65-70 million handguns GUN OWNERS IN U.S.: 60-65 million, 30-35 million own handguns

FIREARMS USED 11% of firearms owners FOR PROTECTION: 13% of handgun owners

CRIMINAL MISUSE OF Less than 0.2% of firearms, FIREARMS YEARLY: Less than 0.4% of handguns Over 99.8% of U.S. firearms and 99.6% of U.S. handguns will not be involved in criminal activity in any given year. NRA voluntary firearm safety programs have helped reduce the accidental firearm fatality rate 67% over the last 50 years, while firearms ownership has risen 140%, and handgun ownership has risen 200%.

WHY AMERICANS OWN FIREARMS (Based on 1978 Decision Making Information surveys, with handgun data confirmed by 1978 Caddell survey.) Primary Reasons to Own/Use Firearms, Projected Number of Americans (Approx. 60-65 million owners of 200,000,000 or more firearms)

HUNTING: 51% 33,000,000 Americans

PROTECTION: 32% 21,000,000 " Used Gun for Protection: 11% 7,000,000

TARGET SHOOTING: 13% 8,500,000

COLLECTING: 4% 2,600.000

Primary Reasons to Own/Use Handguns Projected Number of Americans (30-35 million owners of 65,000,000 handguns)

HUNTING: 10% 3,500,000 Americans

PROTECTION: 58% 21,000,000 " Used Gun For Protection: 13% 4,600,666 "

TARGET SHOOTING: 18% 6,300,000 "

COLLECTING: 14% 5,000,000 "

FIREARMS AND SELF-DEFENSE Survey research indicates that there are more than 2.1 million protective uses of firearms each year, far more than the number of violent criminal gun uses reported by the FBI. Most self-defense uses do not involve discharge of a firearm. In only 0.1% of defensive gun uses is a criminal killed, and in only 1% is a criminal wounded. A Department of Justice-sponsored survey found that 40% of felons had chosen not to commit at least one specific crime for fear their victims were armed, and 34% admitted being scared off or shot at by armed victims. U. S. Department of Justice victimization surveys show that the protective use of a firearm lessens the chance that a rape, robbery or assault attempt will be successfully completed and also reduces the chance of injury to the intended victim.

CRIME RATES LOWER IN STATES THAT ALLOW LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS TO CARRY FIREARMS

States with favorable concealed carry laws have lower rates of crime than states with restrictive concealed carry laws. Overall, the homicide rate for states with favorable carry laws is 31% lower, and the robbery rate is 36% lower, than for states with restrictive concealed carry laws. States which have recently changed their laws have experienced reductions in homicide rates. Since 1987, when Florida enacted a favorable CCW law, its homicide rate has dropped 22%, even while the national rate has risen 15%. Only .007% of Florida CCW permits have been revoked because of a crime after licensure.

BIASED MEDIA POLLS DON'T TELL THE REAL STORY Media polls conducted by national polling firms frequently use biased questions and also limit the responses of those questioned. A Luntz Weber Research & Strategic Services poll reflects an accurate view of public opinion, using open ended questions which allow respondents to express their real opinions, rather than be directed toward a desired result. When given the opportunity to freely express themselves, Americans reveal that they do not believe that "gun control" is effective at fighting crime; they prefer criminal justice reform, stiffer penalties, better enforcement and solutions aimed at the core causes of crime. Some of the significant findings of the Luntz Weber survey are: Which of the following proposals do you believe would be more likely to reduce the number of violent crimes? Mandatory Prison 70% More Gun Control 25% What do you think is the most important cause of violent crime in the United States today? Drugs/Alcohol 36% Breakdown of Family Values 13% Poverty 8% Guns 8% Judicial System 5% In your opinion, what do you think is the single most important thing that can be done to help reduce violent crime in the United States today? Preventative programs 30% Prosecution/Penalties 20% Stronger Values 16% Better Enforcement 16% Gun Control 9% Other than for the police and military, all guns should be outlawed. Total Disagree 78% Total Agree 21% Strongly 58% Strongly 14% Somewhat 20% Somewhat 7%

12 LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH IN U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (latest data)

ALL CAUSES 2,169,518

Heart Disease 720,862

Cancers 514,657

Strokes 143,481

ACCIDENTS 89,347

Motor Vehicle 43,536

Falls 12,662

Poisoning (solid, liquid, gas) 6,434

Drowning (incl. water transport drownings) 4,685

Suffocation (mechanical, ingestion) 4,195

Fires and flames 4,120

Surgical/Medical misadventures* 2,473

Other Transportation (excl. drownings) 2,086

Natural/Environmental factors 1,453

Firearms 1,441

Chronic pulmonary diseases 90,650

Pneumonia and influenza 77,860

Diabetes 48,951

Suicide** 30,810

HIV Infections (AIDS) 29,555

Homicide and legal intervention*** 26,513

Cirrhosis and other liver diseases 25,429

* A Harvard University study suggests 93,000 deaths annually related to medical negligence, excluding tens of thousands more deaths from non- hospital medical office/lab mistakes and thousands of hospital caused infections.

** Approximately 60% involve firearms.

*** Approximately 60% involve firearms. Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck estimates 1,500-2,800 self-defense and justifiable homicides by civilians and 300-600 by police annually.

THE REAL CAUSE OF CRIME - AND REAL SOLUTIONS America fails to incarcerate violent criminals. In 1960, 738 criminals were sent to prison for every 1,000 violent crimes, but by 1980, the number of criminals sent to prison per 1,000 violent crimes dropped to 227, and the crime rate tripled. Over 60,000 criminals convicted of violent crime every year _ murder, rape, robbery or aggravated assault _ are not sent to prison. Of America's 4.3 million convicted criminals, only 26% are in prison. The remaining 74% are serving "sentences" of parole or probation, free on the streets. Since lower incarceration rates are mostly due to prison overcrowding, CrimeStrike lobbied successfully to increase prison capacity in Texas, Mississippi, Virginia and nearly tripled the funds allocated for state prison construction in the 1994 Federal Crime Bill. Criminals who are incarcerated are freed too early, serving on average only one-third of their sentences. The average time served is: for murder, 7.7 years; rape, 4.6 years; robbery 3.3 years; and aggravated assault,1.9 years. Every day in America, 14 people will be murdered, 48 women raped and 578 robbed by convicted criminals on parole or early release from prison. CrimeStrike helped win passage of Truth-In-Sentencing laws in Arizona, Mississippi and Virginia, preventing early release by requiring violent criminals to serve 85% of their sentences. Additionally, CrimeStrike blocked the paroles of individual murderers in Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Texas and West Virginia. Juvenile crime has reached crisis proportions: Between 1980 and 1990, the number of juveniles arrested for heroin/cocaine rose 713%. Over the last five years, juvenile gang killings increased 208%. Yet only 1.5% of juvenile offenders were sent to adult or criminal court in 1991 and, of those, 85.3% were not sent to prison. CrimeStrike helped win passage of juvenile justice reform in Arkansas and Mississippi, requiring violent juvenile criminals who do "adult crime" to serve "adult time." Crime victims, or their survivors, are often treated as mere witnesses in court, unfairly barred from participating in the criminal justice process in any way. CrimeStrike worked for passage of Victims' Bill of Rights proposals in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Missouri and New Mexico. Repeat offenders are a serious threat to public safety. The average criminal commits 187-287 crimes a year, resulting in over six million people becoming victims of violent crime _ murder, rape, robbery or aggravated assault _ every year. CrimeStrike was instrumental in helping Washington State Initiative 593, the nation's first "Three Strike, You're Out" law, qualify for the ballot and then win passage by the largest margin in state history. CrimeStrike also provided grassroots support for the California "Three Strikes" law, which also won at the polls.

U.S. COMPARED WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES

* All criminologists studying the firearms issue reject simple comparisons of violent crime among foreign countries. (James D. Wright, et. al ., Under the Gun, 1983) "Gun control does not deserve credit for the low crime rates in Britain, Japan, or other nations.... Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America; not only does it depend on search and seizure too intrusive for American standards, it postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government fundamentally at odds with the individual, egalitarian . . . American ethos." (David Kopel, "Foreign Gun Control in American Eyes," 1987)

* Gun laws and firearms availability are unrelated to homicide or suicide rates. Most states bordering Canada have homicide rates similar to their northern neighbors, despite much higher rates of firearms availability. While the American homicide rate is higher than most European nations, and firearms are frequently involved in American homicides, America's violent crime rates are even higher for crimes where guns are less often (robbery) or infrequently (rape) involved. The difference is violence, not firearms, and America's system of revolving door justice.

* England now has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before adopting its repressive laws, yet its politicians have responded to rising crime by further restricting rifles and shotguns. During the past dozen years, handgun-related robbery has risen 200% in Britain, five times as fast as the rise in the U.S.

* Japan's low homicide rate is accompanied by a suicide rate much higher than that of the United States, despite Japan's virtual gun ban. And Japan's low crime rate is attributable to police-state type law enforcement which would be opposed by Americans.

* Anti-gunners' comparisons of homicide in Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., ignore the fact that non-Hispanic whites have a lower homicide rate in Seattle than in Vancouver, and that Vancouver's homicide rate, and handgun use in homicide, did not go down following Canada's adoption of a "tough" gun law.

SEMI-AUTOMATICS & SO-CALLED "ASSAULT WEAPONS"

* In a deliberate effort to have public policy made by deception, anti- gunners invented the "assault weapon" issue, noting that the public could not readily distinguish full-auto firearms _ sharply restricted by federal law since 1934 _ from semi-auto firearms. No legally-owned full auto firearm has ever been used in a violent crime by a civilian. Semi-autos are very difficult to convert to full auto and such conversion is a federal felony. Semi-autos which are "easy to convert" are not approved by the BATF for sale to the public.

* Data from states and big cities show that military look-alikes constitute 0-3% of guns used in crime and constitute only 1.5% of guns seized by police. Rifles, including semi-autos, are involved in only 3% of homicides.

* BATF traces tell nothing about the types of guns used by criminals, since only 1% of guns used in violent crimes are traced, and even that 1% is not randomly selected.(Congressional Research Service)

* Anti-gunners' hypocrisy: Claiming that handguns are not protected by the Second Amendment because they have no militia purpose, they support banning rifles and shotguns which do. Their ultimate goal is total gun prohibition.

NOTABLE GUN LAW FAILURES Since enacting a virtual handgun ban in 1976, Washington, D.C.'s murder rate has risen 200%, with a 300% rise in handgun-related homicide, as handgun use went from less than 60% of killings to 83%. No gun law in any city, state or nation has ever reduced violent crime, or slowed its rate of growth, compared to similar jurisdictions. With less than 3% of the U.S. population, New York City annually accounts for more than one-eighth of the nation's handgun- related homicides. Since it became a felony to go outside the city to evade its virtual handgun ban, the homicide rate in N.Y.C has risen three times faster than the rest of the country's. Gun rationing schemes have failed miserably. In 1975, South Carolina limited handgun sales to individuals to one per month. Since then, South Carolina's violent crime rate has skyrocketed over 100%.

SECOND AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Like all rights protected by the Bill of Rights, the right to keep and bear arms is individually possessed by the American people. The recent concept of a "collective right" is fraudulent because the Framers understood the concept of a "right" to apply only to individuals and used the word "states" when collective meanings were intended.

* In 1990, the Supreme Court observed in U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, that the right to keep and bear arms, like rights protected by the First, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments, is an individual right held by "the people," which the court defined as all "persons who are a part of a national community."

* The National Guard, established in 1903 and subject to federal control, could not have been the type of body envisioned by the framers, even if the goal were to protect only an organized state militia. Under federal law, the militia consists of all able-bodied males of an age to serve, and some females and older men. (10 U.S.C. .311 and 32 U.S.C. .313)

* All five relevant Supreme Court decisions have recognized that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. No Supreme Court decision has ever held this right to be "collective." Lower federal courts have been divided on the question.

NRA Institute for Legislative Action

11250 Waples Mill Road

Fairfax, Virginia

22030

NL00890 Rev. -- This information is presented as a service to the Internet community by the NRA/ILA. Many files are available via anonymous ftp from http://ftp.nra.org via WWW at http://www.nra.org via gopher at gopher.nra.org and via WAIS at wais.nra.org

Be sure to subscribe to the NRA mailing lists. Send the word help as the body of a message to listproc@NRA.org

Information can also be obtained by connecting to the NRA-ILA GUN-TALK BBS at (703) 934-2121.

http://www.knobcreekshoot.com/FirearmsFacts.htm

Quote[/b] ]PROPERLY EQUIPPED

Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you gotta love this!!!! This is one of the best comeback lines of all time. It is a portion of a National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Marine Corps General Reinwald who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended. All over America, people were thinking: Semper Fi, Marine!

[hellfish6 7]

That NPR interview is BS. It was widely disproved years ago as an urban legend.

[Major Fubar 0]

Interesting figures - not exactly an unbiased source, but then what is?  

One bit's got me confused - dont these two figures contradict each other:

12 LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH IN U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (latest data)

ALL CAUSES 2,169,518

Heart Disease 720,862

Cancers 514,657

Strokes 143,481

ACCIDENTS 89,347

Motor Vehicle 43,536

Falls 12,662

Poisoning (solid, liquid, gas) 6,434

Drowning (incl. water transport drownings) 4,685

Suffocation (mechanical, ingestion) 4,195

Fires and flames 4,120

Surgical/Medical misadventures* 2,473

Other Transportation (excl. drownings) 2,086

Natural/Environmental factors 1,453

Firearms 1,441

Chronic pulmonary diseases 90,650

Pneumonia and influenza 77,860

Diabetes 48,951

Suicide** 30,810

HIV Infections (AIDS) 29,555

Homicide and legal intervention*** 26,513

Cirrhosis and other liver diseases 25,429

* A Harvard University study suggests 93,000 deaths annually related to medical negligence, excluding tens of thousands more deaths from non- hospital medical office/lab mistakes and thousands of hospital caused infections.

** Approximately 60% involve firearms.

*** Approximately 60% involve firearms. Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck estimates 1,500-2,800 self-defense and justifiable homicides by civilians and 300-600 by police annually.

Isn't 60% of 26,513 = 15,908, not 1,441? Or am I reading it wrong?

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

That NPR interview is BS. It was widely disproved years ago as an urban legend.

Yea I know, but its a good example!

[Bluesman 0]

Without in any way jumping into this discussion I still have one thing I'm curious about.

If you were to intepret the 2nd amendment litterarly, what's to stop me from building/owning my own nuclear bomb(eg a fully armed SS18) or say M1A2 or even a F16?

Just curious how a court would tackle it if I claimed the right to have one through the 2nd.

If you look at the "well armed militia" part it actually makes more sense to own a bunch of M1A2:s or Nukes than a couple of Colt45:s which most likelly isn't going to scare any armies away.

BM

[Commander-598 0]

Unless your a well known Billionaire, or a secretive Columbian Drug Lord, your going to have a hard time buying either. Isn't the M1's pricetag somewhere in the millions? Most of our fighters are up there as well. Besides, I don't think Lockeed or General Dynamics they would sell them to just anyone.

Quote[/b] ]what's to stop me from building/owning my own nuclear bomb

Radiation poisoning? Having a highly dangerous chemical/mineral without proper licensing?($10 bucks says they have a license for it.) Price of uranium?

Besides, thats taking it into the very extremes.

Prices

F16 D/C-$26.9 million

M1 Abrams-$4.3 Million I bet DU Sabots cost at least $100 a round.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

There is a tank endorsement on your driver's license... so I assume you can get a tank?

[Renagade 0]

U can over here.

Im sure a  farmer got one for the  hell of it,it had de-activated weapons systems though  

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]One bit's got me confused - dont these two figures contradict each other:

They are talking about 'justifiable' homicides, in which a criminal was killed lawfully by a civillian or police officer. 60% of those homicides are done with a gun.

[Bluesman 0]

Unless your a well known Billionaire, or a secretive Columbian Drug Lord, your going to have a hard time buying either. Isn't the M1's pricetag somewhere in the millions? Most of our fighters are up there as well. Besides, I don't think Lockeed or General Dynamics they would sell them to just anyone.

Quote[/b] ]what's to stop me from building/owning my own nuclear bomb

Radiation poisoning? Having a highly dangerous chemical/mineral without proper licensing?($10 bucks says they have a license for it.) Price of uranium?

Besides, thats taking it into the very extremes.

Prices

F16 D/C-$26.9 million

M1 Abrams-$4.3 Million I bet DU Sabots cost at least $100 a round.

Yes; It may sound like a crazy idea but my point was to test how foolproof the 2nd amendment is. If I was to use it as a basis for my defence if eg I had a 2mt Nuke in my garage.

I of course understand that the regulations regarding hazardous material would apply but wouldn't they be down prioritized when it comes to the constitution?

Actually it's not as crazy as it sounds. If you were to have actual working defence (ie militia) in a modern world, this is the type of weapons that would come into play.

As for the costs. There are plenty of excentric billionaires in this world . Plus a "well organized militia" could probably afford a weapon or two.

BM

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

There are a few sites on the net that sell old army armoured vehicles. Not too expensive to buy, but they use a LOT of fuel ;)

I live in the UK and my father owns (legally) a 5 shot repeater shotgun; you just need a firearms licence as opposed to a shotgun license. I have a side by side myself, although its registered to him and kept in his gun cabinet

I think gun ownership is fine (obviously ;) ) as long as sufficient background checks and licensing is done, as well as probably a graduated license scheme, so its easier to get a shotgun or small rifle than an MG3 (although civvies can't own burst or auto weapons here AFAIK)

[Major Fubar 0]

Quote[/b] ]One bit's got me confused - dont these two figures contradict each other:

They are talking about 'justifiable' homicides, in which a criminal was killed lawfully by a civillian or police officer. 60% of those homicides are done with a gun.

Ah, I see.

Actually, that's a scary thought - that means 40% of these killings (10,605) were done with things other than guns!

I have this mental image of people beating home intruders to death with a baseball bat or hacking them with a meat-cleaver!

[Renagade 0]

There are a few sites on the net that sell old army armoured vehicles.  Not too expensive to buy, but they use a LOT of fuel ;)

I live in the UK and my father owns (legally) a 5 shot repeater shotgun; you just need a firearms licence as opposed to a shotgun license.  I have a side by side myself, although its registered to him and kept in his gun cabinet

I think gun ownership is fine (obviously ;) ) as long as sufficient background checks and licensing is done, as well as probably a graduated license scheme, so its easier to get a shotgun or small rifle than an MG3 (although civvies can't own burst or auto weapons here AFAIK)

I think ur not allowed semi-autos either unless their .22 or under.

As far as i knew u only needed a firearms for a shotgun when u wanted to to  use slugs as opposed to shot.

Im sure that the max u could have on a pump action shotgun,i`m assuming its a pump-shotgun, was 2  in the magazine and one in the chamber,a total of 3 shells in ur gun.

So i went off in search of the police guide and found this here

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/firearms/index.html The police guide is on one of the links near the bottom.

Quote[/b] ]Gun Amnesty Results

Our recent Gun Amnesty – Get Guns Off the Streets – was a great success.

Between 31 March and 30 April 2003, the amnesty encouraged people to hand in illegally held guns and ammunition at local police stations without being charged.

We also encouraged people to hand in any other unwanted guns.

A total of 43,908 guns and 1,039,358 rounds of ammunition were handed in and are no longer at risk of falling in the hands of criminals.

This compares to 22,939 guns and 695,197 rounds of ammunition relinquished during the previous amnesty in June 1996.

The items included:

6,529 prohibited firearms (including 5,734 handguns)

10,513 shot guns

13,974 air weapons

9,480 imitations

3,412 assorted rifles and other guns.

In addition 7,093 other weapons were also handed in including knives, swords and crossbows.

Interesting to see the bulk of it being airguns(not weapons)

Thing is we will never know  how many of the airguns were illegal by being over the power-limit here for airguns  

Imitations too.

swords knives crossbows.

Im not sure what would be classed as assored rifles and other guns,possibly legal ones that ppl don`t have a license for or just want rid  of them.

Its nice how u can mix the statistics a bit to  get a bigger  number but is a bigger number better,i mean if thats the amount of ppl willing to hand guns into a police station then what about the ppl who`re not  

[=MH=FritzDaKat 0]

Sorry if it's already been touched on previously, but I really dont need to read the pro-"ban gun's" argument, so pardon me for not reading thru the entire 4 pages.

It just seems to me however that if instead of banning everything we deem unsafe left and right and instead focus the enormous piles of monies being used for such ends (left and right) on the task of developing programs which would be aimed towards raising the social conciousness of people, ensuring the majority of society had a clear understanding of common sense and the difference between right and wrong we would be much better off than by doing thing's like banning assault rifles which does little more than ensure the only individuals with assault rifles would be either the militia / police or the criminals who, being criminals arent likely to stop and think "Hey, I'm using an assault rifle here, it's a crime, I better not do this", leaving Joe Q. Public to hope for the random chance that a squad car is rolling by his house at the moment when the criminal with the AK is making his move.

But really, if we could focus all this funding towards increasing the social values of the members of our society, wouldnt that be as effective as disarmament, not to mention that they would have a lower likelyhood of just moving on to using blunt instruments, or archery equipment ( A pistol crossbow with a 60lb pull at close range can be very lethal, not to mention silent.)

As far as criminals making their own weapons, it's been going on for a looong time, even in the day's of Al capone, you can read of Thug's with "Zip guns", A Zip gun being a makeshift weapon of questionable reliability. And more recently in the area where I live, just two years ago, a local PD busted up a machine shop which was converting those popular AA battery powered MAG-Lites into a single shot weapon.

[toadlife 3]

Why does it always have to become a gun control issue whenever something happens that includes a gun?

I've never see someone raise the knife controle question, or the car controle, or alcohol question or...

I haven't read all the new, but did he even own the gun legally? He would have got one if he really wanted to anyways, legal or illegal.

Because, knives are used daily in cities and elsewhere to live/survive. Cars are used to get around on the streets, in cities and elsewhere. A gun is a weapon for combat these days. Ie killing people. Unless you have a hunting rifle.

It IS a gun control issue. Just becasue so many people on this forum liek guns kind of blinds them that it's not an issue.

No, if guns were completely illegal in the states that dufus would not have one or have planned to use one. It is simply accepted that you ca neasily geta gun in the states and that's likely why he had one.

Existing, a utopian world where no one is able to get an illegal gun is the false premise that makes the above argument invalid. The fact is, no matter how illegal you make guns, people will find a way to get them - especially here in the United States.

It's playing out right now in Britain. Gun crime has skyrocketed and law abiding citizens are the one's being screwed by the whole deal.

Here's a fun list for Anti Gun Control folks here:

Source: http://www.attrition.org/technical/firearms/40_gun_control.html

Quote[/b] ]

40 Reasons to Support Gun Control

(Apparently derived from the essay by Michael Z. Williamson.)

(Also known as the proof positive that Liberals are not just stupid, but insane.)

1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994, are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense — give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns and Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for spinal paralysis, a computer programmer for Y2K problems, and Sarah Brady [or Sheena Duncan, Adele Kirsten, Peter Storey, etc.] for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created by an act of Congress in 1917.

13. The National Guard, funded by the federal government, occupying property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by the federal government, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a state militia.

14. These phrases," right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration's herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people," all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state.

15. We don't need guns against an oppressive government, because the Constitution has internal safeguards, but we should ban and seize all guns, thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments to that Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense, which is why the army has millions of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they serve no military purpose, and private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles," because they are military weapons.

18. The ready availability of guns today, with waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, et cetera, is responsible for recent school shootings,compared to the lack of school shootings in the 40's, 50's and 60's, which resulted from the availability of guns at hardware stores, surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, mail order, et cetera.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, and the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

26. A self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of online pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston as president of the NRA is a shill who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers, who qualify with their duty weapons once or twice a year, have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people, which is why the police need them but "civilians" do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. When Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands," they don't mean you. Really.

[The Frenchman 0]

  6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

  7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

  8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

What the

[Major Fubar 0]

I think that list is supposed to be sarcastic...