Uk farmer who shot burglar freed

[denoir 0]

@ Aug. 04 2003,15:40)]We didn't initiate the sequence. By committing the crime, the criminal has expressly requested punishment in kind.

No, the criminal has just expressed his lack of respect for our rules. But the issue is that if we go by an absolute moral code (as we in fact do through a permanent set of laws) then we can't very well go and commit the same violations of that moral code as the criminal does. Then there's no real difference between us and the criminal.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Aug. 04 2003,15:40)]We didn't initiate the sequence. By committing the crime, the criminal has expressly requested punishment in kind.

No, the criminal has just expressed his lack of respect for our rules. But the issue is that if we go by an absolute moral code (as we in fact do through a permanent set of laws) then we can't very well go and commit the same violations of that moral code as the criminal does. Then there's no real difference between us and the criminal.

I don't disagree, but I still don't think that providing free housing and cable TV for 20 years is not the best way to deal with criminals. If you are going to put them in prison, it ought to be a very unpleasent experience.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

This expense is coverd for by the goverment and the prison board of directors (called "daily allowance") Wich the prisoners can spend at will at either renting a TV and a video player and renting video tapes. Also the prisoners have a chance to get an education whilst in prison (if they behave well) and also have the oppurtunity to work to reccieve extra money to spend on articles availible for rent (and other articles availible for purchase in the prison) or just save the money up to get a decent start when they get released.

I think that our American friends might find it a bit surprising that our prisoners actually get paid for their time in prison.

...wha?

[GoOB 0]

This expense is coverd for by the goverment and the prison board of directors (called "daily allowance") Wich the prisoners can spend at will at either renting a TV and a video player and renting video tapes. Also the prisoners have a chance to get an education whilst in prison (if they behave well) and also have the oppurtunity to work to reccieve extra money to spend on articles availible for rent (and other articles availible for purchase in the prison) or just save the money up to get a decent start when they get released.

I think that our American friends might find it a bit surprising that our prisoners actually get paid for their time in prison.

I don't know. In a perfect society with infinite resources, I would have no problem with it. It does however become a bit absurd when convicted criminals get better food than kids in school.

Better food, maybe I have never been in prison but I am sure it is better. But it doesn't cost more according to our dear friend Göran Persson (the Swedish minister of state) The four courses a day are:

Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner. And if required the prisoner can get a snack between lunch and dinner. The whole party (excluding the snack) goes loose on about 21,90 SEK were as a school lunch in most schools goes off for about 6,50 SEK. Wich leaves each prison meal costing ca. 7,30 SEK. Wich isn't that much more considering adults need bigger portions to get their stomachs happy. I am in no way defending this as I am about to start the ninth grade, and I am not particularly looking forward to eating lunch three school days out of five. Yes yes we get lunch everyday, but it's just one day we are guaranteed fish. Wich I am allergic to, and the substitution is not the most attractive meals imagineable. And two days we usually get something that cant be recognizable as food for humans. But I am probably a bit picky too

[denoir 0]

Be happy that you have free school lunch. You have no idea how much you'll will miss it once you have to pay or cook yourself.

Anyway, it was interesting information. I suppose that the "prisoners get better food" is a classic urban legend.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I think that our American friends might find it a bit surprising that our prisoners actually get paid for their time in prison.

...wha?

It's not much, something like 10 € /day, but I'll admit that the principle of it is a bit odd.

[theavonlady 2]

It's a difficult issue. What is the point of a punsihment? Is it educational or is it to make the criminal face consequences of his action? If it is just about stopping the criminal from repeating his violations of the law, then where is individual accountability? On the other hand if it is about payback, an eye for an eye so to speak, then how are we better than the criminal?

What if it's about deterring future criminals. Crime seems to pay, according to this logic. Hey! Why not go out and murder someone I hate? At the worst, I get birthday cake and horseback riding lessons.

[denoir 0]

What if it's about deterring future criminals. Crime seems to pay, according to this logic. Hey! Why not go out and murder someone I hate? At the worst, I get birthday cake and horseback riding lessons.

If you can stop those that get caught to do it again, then that should be no problem. You'll just need to catch criminals at a higher rate than new ones are created.

Especially violent crimes are seldom pre-calculated acts. Usually it's something that happens in the heat of the moment.

For a practical example: There have been many investigations if the capital punishment acts as a deterrent. The answer has always been no because of two factors: 1) People don't think about the consequences when they commit violent crimes 2) People always believe that they'll get away with it.

[GoOB 0]

I am indeed grateful of getting free lunch in school. But as with all things in life it can improve. I shant wine about that for long though. I get so much for free I am grateful for, free health care, free dental care, free education. After watching CBS sixty minutes last night (about North-Korea) I am even more grateful. Often me and my young companions see internet, computers, phones and television as something obvious. But it is a privilige us westeners live with, I can't imagine not being able to go to the fridge and grab myself a sandwich when I am hungry. And I don't completly understand people who wonder were all the tax money goes to. Of course the goverment could prioritize things a little better. But considering the ammount of things the taxpayers get back for what they pay I think it is more than justified. If it weren't for free healthcare for children I would probably not be able to function like a "normal" human today. Also I almost never use phones and I don't even own a cellular phone. The phone is just something classed as something that is just "there" for most young'ins.

(I have a muscular dysfunction that makes my muscles weaker, wich has required three operations to establish. And two operations to illongate my achilles thendon. But now I function like any other "ordinary" person due to exercise and two operations.)

[theavonlady 2]

Especially violent crimes are seldom pre-calculated acts. Usually it's something that happens in the heat of the moment.

I don't know whether the ration of premeditated crimes is 1:3 or 3:1.

What I do know is that when you send a message to someone that nothing that terrible will happen to you should you decide to go ahead and break the law, you're giving some people an incentive to do it and others the chance to recalculate their risks to their betrement.

You'll just have more people not thinking before they act with this kind of system.

Hello Mom!

Hello Dad!

Things in prison,

Ain't so bad.

You remember,

I love arson?

They gave me TV,

I watch reruns of Jonny Carson.

There's a spa!

There's a lake!

For my birthday,

I got a cake!

There was no file,

In the batter.

But life's great here,

It doesn't really matter.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]I am indeed grateful of getting free lunch in school. But as with all things in life it can improve. I shant wine about that for long though. I get so much for free I am grateful for, free health care, free dental care, free education. After watching CBS sixty minutes last night (about North-Korea) I am even more grateful. Often me and my young companions see internet, computers, phones and television as something obvious. But it is a privilige us westeners live with, I can't imagine not being able to go to the fridge and grab myself a sandwich when I am hungry. And I don't completly understand people who wonder were all the tax money goes to. Of course the goverment could prioritize things a little better. But considering the ammount of things the taxpayers get back for what they pay I think it is more than justified. If it weren't for free healthcare for children I would probably not be able to function like a "normal" human today. Also I almost never use phones and I don't even own a cellular phone. The phone is just something classed as something that is just "there" for most young'ins.

Yeah, I agree for the most part. I believe that it's the normal evolution of a society as our production and technological capabilities increase. If we can produce much more food than we can use then there is no need for people to go hungry.

The question is just if Sweden did not take its social steps a bit prematurely. A lot of the system was built up through high taxes. That however only works when the economy is going well. During recessions they took loans instead. And it worked very well for about 50 years until the 80's when the mortage for those loans became too high to ignore. As a result we still have our high taxes but our wellfare system is deteriorating.

We're still better off than most western countries, but we certainly arn't the best.

[denoir 0]

Hello Mom!

Hello Dad!

Things in prison,

Ain't so bad.

You remember,

I love arson?

They gave me TV,

I watch reruns of Jonny Carson.

There's a spa!

There's a lake!

For my birthday,

I got a cake!

There was no file,

In the batter.

But life's great here,

It doesn't really matter.

LOL

I never knew you had such a creative side

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I think that our American friends might find it a bit surprising that our prisoners actually get paid for their time in prison.

...wha?  

It's not much, something like 10 € /day, but I'll admit that the principle of it is a bit odd.

So, at least in Sweden... crime does pay?

Like I said, I know where I'm moving

[denoir 0]

What I do know is that when you send a message to someone that nothing that terrible will happen to you should you decide to go ahead and break the law, you're giving some people an incentive to do it and others the chance to recalculate their risks to their betrement.

You'll just have more people not thinking before they act with this kind of system.

Possibly, but it's still a prison. Very few people would choose to be deprived of their freedom just to get a room with a TV.

Where would you draw the limit? Room without a TV? Cells? Physical abuse? Torture?

They are worse off in prison than they are as free citizens, that's for sure.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

What I do know is that when you send a message to someone that nothing that terrible will happen to you should you decide to go ahead and break the law, you're giving some people an incentive to do it and others the chance to recalculate their risks to their betrement.

You'll just have more people not thinking before they act with this kind of system.

Possibly, but it's still a prison. Very few people would choose to be deprived of their freedom just to get a room with a TV.

Where would you draw the limit? Room without a TV? Cells? Physical abuse? Torture?

They are worse off in prison than they are as free citizens, that's for sure.

eliminating the 10 Euro a day salary might be a good starting point

[GoOB 0]

For starters I belive that pays for their food aswell. And as prisoners are classed as out of work, but they don't get the scocial benefit of "A-kassa" basically the goverment pays you a little cash each month to help you get along. Also if they have a job outside their life of crime they do not get money for lost payments. Wich a man who is hospitalized gets. Note that is like 80% of ones salary. And the minumum salary is 10.000 a month.

At Avon: I am sure Cornelius Cornelis Vreeswijk would be proud of your little ode to the Swedish penal system, might I add "LOL" to this statement aswell. Funny as heck

[Tex -USMC- 0]

For starters I belive that pays for their food aswell. And as prisoners are classed as out of work, but they don't get the scocial benefit of "A-kassa" basically the goverment pays you a little cash each month to help you get along. Also if they have a job outside their life of crime they do not get money for lost payments. Wich a man who is hospitalized gets. Note that is like 80% of ones salary. And the minumum salary is 10.000 a month.

None of which changes the fact that you are paying a criminal a salary, and with taxpayer's money, no less.

[Winters 1]

@ Aug. 04 2003,10:41)]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I think that our American friends might find it a bit surprising that our prisoners actually get paid for their time in prison.

...wha?  

It's not much, something like 10 € /day, but I'll admit that the principle of it is a bit odd.

So, at least in Sweden... crime does pay?

Like I said, I know where I'm moving  

Prisoners in the US get paid also, but you don't have to believe me, look it up.

[GoOB 0]

Indeed it doesn't, but since our current goverment is leaned a little to the Scocialistic side. Or actually it is Scocial Democratic. Thus our goverment belives in that all humans are equally worth and that prisoners should be treated in a humane way. I agree paying them 10 € a day probably is probably going a bit to far. But I think that once the prisoner is allowed to work inside the prison that day salary is cut in half. And 10 € is a little more than 100 SEK with wich you can buy ca. one cigarette packet, one magazine (not a newspaper but a magazine similar to Cosmopolitan or any other publishing that is released once a month) and a bag of "Ahlgrens bilar" remember the prison gets this money back sooner or later. Since they can only spend their day salary inside the prison. And prices are higher in prison than out in the real world too. I hope that made it a little more logical.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]"What is the point of a punsihment? Is it educational or is it to make the criminal face consequences of his action?"

Surely it is (or should be) both? It is important to attempt to re-educate offenders for outside life but it is also important to make offenders aware both logically and emotionally of the consequences of their actions. For a criminal to face the consequences of their actions should be an educational experience. I wonder how long this 70 year old war criminal spent considering the consequences of her actions on those whose lives were destroyed by 'ethnic cleansing' whilst in prison. I imagine shes been too busy successfully avoiding thinking about it and otherwise having a good time.

I believe there is a scheme in this country where if the victim chooses it they can confront the perpetrator of the crime with what the consequence of their actions have been on their (the victims) life. Whilst i dont support a lot of (Home Secretary) David 'hanging and flogging' Blunketts ideas this is one of a few which seems to be a positive change.

I dont agree with Tex either though. For one thing individual responsibility comes to fruition through an individuals full awareness of their ability to positively change their circumstances. Something of which i know many poorer people in America (for a home example) are not at all convinced they can do legally and of which their neighbourhood has no legal examples (all the rich people around are drug dealers- there are only Mcjobs available so what do i do to make a change?).

If people grow up in an impoverished environment where the only role models they see on the streets are drug dealers and other criminals and when their moral codes likely come from the same local sources that produced those very criminals then from whence is the knowledge of the full extent of their individual freedom and that there is another way to live their lives supposed to come?

...The education system- and there must be social improvement towards giving greater choice and opportunity in the neighbourhood to back up the knowledge of young people that they are indeed free. A person is first as free as their environment allows, and as free as they know themselves to be. For some poor people crime seems the only choice...that must change and locking people up is not the solution.

[GoOB 0]

Quote[/b] ]"What is the point of a punsihment? Is it educational or is it to make the criminal face consequences of his action?"

Surely it is (or should be) both? It is important to attempt to re-educate offenders for outside life but it is also important to make offenders aware both logically and emotionally of the consequences of their actions. For a criminal to face the consequences of their actions should be an educational experience. I wonder how long this 70 year old war criminal spent considering the consequences of her actions on those whose lives were destroyed by 'ethnic cleansing' whilst in prison. I imagine shes been too busy successfully avoiding thinking about it and otherwise having a good time.

I believe there is a scheme in this country where if the victim chooses it they can confront the perpetrator of the crime with what the consequence of their actions have been on their (the victims) life. Whilst i dont support a lot of (Home Secretary) David 'hanging and flogging' Blunketts ideas this is one of a few which seems to be a positive change.

I dont agree with Tex either though. For one thing individual responsibility comes to fruition through an individuals full awareness of their ability to positively change their circumstances. Something of which i know many poorer people in America (for a home example) are not at all convinced they can do legally and of which their neighbourhood has no legal examples (all the rich people around are drug dealers- there are only Mcjobs available so what do i do to make a change?).

If people grow up in an impoverished environment where the only role models they see on the streets are drug dealers and other criminals and when their moral codes likely come from the same local sources that produced those very criminals then from whence is the knowledge of the full extent of their individual freedom and that there is another way to live their lives supposed to come?

Very well said. Couldn't agree more on that.

[denoir 0]

IsthatyouJohnWayne, I agree (sic! ) for the most part with your post. However, I have one question: Does it matter what a 70 year old war criminal feels and experiences? What she has done, is done. Nothing is going to change that. And believe me, she'll have time to think. Regardless of the humane living conditions, she is still locked up, far away from home. She'll have plenty of time to reflect upon her failures and mistakes. Getting a birthday cake won't change that.

Preferably there should be a theraputic part of the punishment. She should realize what she has done and preferably she should explain her newfound understanding to both her victims and her followers. Her responsibility is to the world, to help other leaders not to follow her path.

Regardless, she was the leader of a people. Now she is fading away locked up, regarded as a monster. Having a TV or not does not matter.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Aug. 04 2003,10:41)]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I think that our American friends might find it a bit surprising that our prisoners actually get paid for their time in prison.

...wha?  

It's not much, something like 10 € /day, but I'll admit that the principle of it is a bit odd.

So, at least in Sweden... crime does pay?

Like I said, I know where I'm moving  

Prisoners in the US get paid also, but you don't have to believe me, look it up.

Jeez, the world gets stranger every day.

edit: I mean, I knew we paid criminals (US Congress ), but actual prisoners/|? damn.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Be happy that you have free school lunch. You have no idea how much you'll will miss it once you have to pay or cook yourself.

hmm...reminds me of....

remember the prison gets this money back sooner or later. Since they can only spend their day salary inside the prison. And prices are higher in prison than out in the real world too. I hope that made it a little more logical.

makes more sense. instead of uniform accomodations for all prisoners, there is some flexibility in what prisoners can do with the "income". in other words, they have choice while living within the system. the swedish system would increase the size of a prisoner's utility.

[FSPilot 0]

I don't understand today's US prison system. You go into prison, do your time, then you're released and expected to act normally and find a job. Well first off you're not going to act normally, "on the outside" cigarettes don't buy you much. Secondly you're not going to find that great a job. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to hire a murderer or rapist. Even a petty thieve I'd hesitate to hire. Most companys do the same. And if they don't? Then they get a nice little exposé on 60 minutes, complete with stupid hidden camera footage.

[Renagade 0]

goOb u could always take packed lunches with u to school and it`ll probably be more tasty than t he shit they`d serve u

I totally disagree with momst of ur points darklight.

as for the touchy feely7 bullshit about making the offender see how hurt their victim is what about say an enforcer(think of the hoodlums the mafia used to carryout jobs here and there) it will probably be no big deal and all that seperates them from a job like in the military is a change in the name of the job.

Quote[/b] ]...The education system

is a pile of shit and the employment agencies are almost as rubbish too.

There was also some news on the DNA and thought maybe u u`d like to know that here in the UK if ur charged at all(whether guilty or not) the cops can steal ur DNA,charming