The Iraq Thread 2

[theavonlady 2]

Let's rotate!

Stryker IAV:

[Blaegis 0]

Now that I stop to think about it, a smaller-scale SOCOM operation would've been better regardless of whether the objective was to eliminate or capture U&Q. Perhaps there were availablility constraints.

This assumes that we knew exactly how many people were in the villa and surrounding area.  As it turns out there weren't very many.  On the other hand, WHAT IF a small Delta team had been sent in against 100 or 200 Fedayeen and/or RG troops?  Eagle Claw II, anyone?

An overwhelming show of force could have been intended to actually prevent a gunfight.    

You have a point. However, you'd think that with all the fancy intel platforms you guys have nowdays you could get a fairly reliable picture of the situation inside and around the house, even within the relatively short timeframe.

As for the overwhelming force factor, you know and I know that those two had nothing to lose, so they sure as hell weren't going to surrender (i.e. taking them alive would've required skill and not just brute force). Bearing that in mind I can revise my initial assessment to: "It's possible that the operation wasn't planned as a hit, but given the assets employed such outcome was almost inevitable."

[denoir 0]

Just watched the news. They had a segment from Baghdad where they showed some interviews with Iraqis. The reporters in question had gone around the city today and interviewed a large number of Iraqis. Basically there were three different opinions floating around:

1) They're not dead, this is just propaganda. (Absolute majority believes this)

2) It's great that they are dead, but it would have been good if they had died a more painful death.

3) They were martyrs and true Arab soldiers that managed to put up a fight for many hours against impossible odds.

Numbers 1 and 2 are not so strange, but number 3 is interesting. In the news segment they also interviewed a Mid East historian who said that this was the stuff of legends in the Arabic world: Four brave martyrs fighting off hundreds of enemy troops that had choppers, missiles etc. He said that the Arabic culture is full of these kind of stories and that they very much appealed to the Arabic population. So his prediction was that the Iraqis would soon forget what sadistic killers they were and remember them as martyrs fighting for the people against the evil occupational power.

I can understand that. I mean considering the opposition they faced, it's nothing short of amazing that they managed to hold their ground for six whole hours.

[bn880 5]

Tex

Quote[/b] ]There's CAS, and then there's CAS. They didn't use anything larger than 2.75 inch rockets. That's a big leap from thousand pound bombs.

A laser guided bomb is more accurate than an optically aimed rocket.

Not at that range. The soldiers firing the rockets were meters away from the walls. I mean, the walls were made of heavily reinforced concrete...

EDIT: It is absolutely amazing for 4 men to have a 6 hour battle against that many soldiers with such heavy firepower.

[bn880 5]

Bn880

Quote[/b] ]This is really absurd now, no one would be saying things like this if TBA wasn't doing what it's doing. I do critisize many Americans for not having the will to stand up to TBA. Get a grip. One of my American friends that passed away last year had a very lively past of speaking out about his government which has been lying to it's public for decades, and how can I be anti-American if I still have American friends, who can agree with me?

I'm calling you anti-American because you constantly criticise US troops for doing anything. Not because you criticise TBA. I even do that.

You must be talking about me criticising the orders and training given to the troops. Like the friendly fire incidents, doped pilots, killing of reporters, blowing up civilian and political targets, assasination attempts. Then at another spectrum, ignoring NAFTA, Guantanamo bay, arming Israel, funding Israel, ICC, starting wars, not paying UN ...etc etc.

I'm not anti American, I'm pro-human race! lol

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Something is funny about this, a company of the 101st with chopper and hummer support against 4 men with handguns in one room?

How the hell can this take 6 hrs, reinforced or not, that building can not survive 10 TOW impacts, can it? Even if it could, it does not take 6 hrs to fire 10 TOW's and storm it?

[FSPilot 0]

Not at that range.     The soldiers firing the rockets were meters away from the walls.  I mean, the walls were made of heavily reinforced concrete...

I think we were referring to OH-58s firing rockets, not the soldiers. At least that's what I was referring to.

Anyway, an inert bomb would of done the trick, if we knew exactly where they were.

[denoir 0]

BBC to Put Blair on Hot Seat

Apparently the Blair got a bit more than he bargained for when he decided to pressure the BBC. They seem to have recordings of Kelly who said that Blair’s office was “desperate†for negative intelligence about Saddam and had exaggerated “out of all proportion†a claim that Iraq could launch chemical or biological weapons within 45 minutes.

[denoir 0]

Anyway, an inert bomb would of done the trick, if we knew exactly where they were.

A bomb does far more radial damage than a rocket. Not to mention that GPS guided bombs (the most precise) have a precision of what? 5-10 m at best? Sure you level the building you drop it on, but you blow away the surrounding buildings as well.

Choppers can hover 50 m from the target and shoot away the rockets with extreme precision.

And obviously that's the case since the commander on the spot decided not to call in A10s as he was worried for collateral damage.

Too bad that they don't seem to learn from experience. They should have just painted a British flag on the builiding and the A10s would have been dead on.

Quote[/b] ]How the hell can this take 6 hrs, reinforced or not, that building can not survive 10 TOW impacts, can it?

No way in hell. The TOW can be used as a bunker-buster. It depends a bit on the version, but it does a massive damage to concrete structures. I don't think that a building would survive 2-3 TOW hits. The missile is bound to go through and hit a bearing wall and the building would collapse. So no, 10 TOWs and 6 hours does not make any sense. The house in question was not especially large either. 6-7 rooms total from what I've seen.

[FSPilot 0]

A bomb does far more radial damage than a rocket. Not to mention that GPS guided bombs (the most precise) have a precision of what? 5-10 m at best? Sure you level the building you drop it on, but you blow away the surrounding buildings as well.

An inert bomb, on the other hand...

[mr. Duck 0]

Something is funny about this, a company of the 101st with chopper and hummer support against 4 men with handguns in one room?

How the hell can this take 6 hrs, reinforced or not, that building can not survive 10 TOW impacts, can it? Even if it could, it does not take 6 hrs to fire 10 TOW's and storm it?

I guess the commander played it safe. Maybe he didn't know how much personell we're inside? Maybe he tried to apprehend them instead of just kill them (or atleast putting them out of action)? Could be alot of reasons.

[denoir 0]

never mind

[Bernadotte 0]

Take no chances with Saddam's kids, I say.  Afterall, the country used to be awash with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

By the way, the $15 million tipoff seems to have come from the home owner.  Does the bounty include the cost of a new home?  (...not to mention new name and face.)

[Major Fubar 0]

Too bad that they don't seem to learn from experience. They should have just painted a British flag on the builiding and the A10s would have been dead on.

ROFL! Funny, but sadly true as well...

[mr. Duck 0]

Quote[/b] ]By the way, the $15 million tipoff seems to have come from the home owner.  Does the bounty include the cost of a new home?  (...not to mention new name and face.)

Shouldn't that be classified? I mean...  

(who screwed up this time...)

By the way, Sadam's kids are quite dangerous, so yeah... No chances. (Well, you can't say they we're peace loving, friendly people...)

[FSPilot 0]

I doubt they're going to be putting the guy's picture on TV.

[Badgerboy 0]

Have they actually explained how 4 men with handguns held off two hundred men with air support yet?

I'm sure they were desperate (U & Q), but thats unbelievable! Perhaps they had the abilities of end of level 'bosses'. (Extra hit points). If so, Saddams going to take an entire armoured division to take down. (Tip for the tankers. The eyes, and his enchanted shin are the weakspots! Shoot when he starts his fireball attack!)

[red oct 2]

Yahoo news

found something more about what happened

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure they were desperate (U & Q), but thats unbelievable! Perhaps they had the abilities of end of level 'bosses'. (Extra hit points). If so, Saddams going to take an entire armoured division to take down. (Tip for the tankers. The eyes, and his enchanted shin are the weakspots! Shoot when he starts his fireball attack!)

LOL. That must be it. The boss level is always more difficult  

That could explain how more than a paratrooper company with CAS and mechanized capabilities was required to fight 6 hours to take down 4 guys that locked themselves up in a bedroom.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Have they actually explained how 4 men with handguns held off two hundred men with air support yet?

I'm sure they were desperate (U & Q), but thats unbelievable! Perhaps they had the abilities of end of level 'bosses'. (Extra hit points). If so, Saddams going to take an entire armoured division to take down. (Tip for the tankers. The eyes, and his enchanted shin are the weakspots! Shoot when he starts his fireball attack!)

Hehe. Well, it wasn't an especially large building, and therefore it's not like all 200 men were involved in the assault- I'll bet most were on perimeter security with an assault element that couldn't have been larger than an understrength platoon. Besides, what's the rush? Haste makes waste, they always say. The part that puzzles me is the number of casualties we sustained.

[denoir 0]

It would seem that the 101:st has lost some of its fighting skillz during the last 50 years. I remember from Band of Brothers tales of how Easy company took out a whole battalion all by themselves.

Nowdays it would seem that a full company is required to take down four men.

Edit: Do you think the Hussein brothers will be awarded the medal of honor? I mean people who have achieved much less than those two did yesterday have recieved it. Or does the fact that they were the enemy disqualify them?

[Badgerboy 0]

Well say what you like, but those four must have fought like tigers. They might have been murdering fucknuts, but they had balls.

[bn880 5]

End level BOSSES (extra hitpoints), ROFL... man this thread is becoming god damn hillarious! Finally it's gotten from being ultra frustrating to flat out funny.

(that or maybe I'm just too tired to know the difference?)

But I can imagine what would have happened if Baghdad was properly defended with close quarters battles. Rubble blocking the roadways, boobytraps in every house, that is partly what I expected Saddam had in mind, but he actually was out of his mind.

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Well, they called in some choppers to fire some missiles into the house. Still doesn't sound like overkill to me.

That part is confusing to me. How can you call in attack helicopters that fire a dozen of missiles into the house and still suffer casualties.

Were the casualties suffered before or after, as you yourself asked?

Quote[/b] ]I mean, why not just call in a real air strike? It's not that the chance of survival from a helicopter attack is much greater.  

Choppers might be easier and cheaper to call in for a one-house mission, don't you think? Unless there was some AA threat around the neighborhood.

I mean, with a chopper, you can hover nicely, drink your coffee and make sure the the missile is aimed for the window's middle pane. (Once again, OFP teaches us real life lessons).

I don't think the choppers even fired their missiles, I think thats pure media "dipshitism" once again. Their lack of knowledge and confidence in their infallbility to report the truth and get it factually correct have mislead us once more from what I've seen. The footage of the firefight I saw showed the military roll up in Humvees and surround a heavily fortified looking stone two-story dwelling. Moments later gunfire from assault weapons and possibly a PK machine gun broke out from the building. The troops took cover and returned fire. I think this initial volley is where the U.S. troops took their 4 casualties. From then on, it was a regular firefight. The U.S, called in gunships, but I think they were hesitant to use them because they wanted to be able to preserve the two bodies of Odei and Qusay, as it is essential the Iraqi people have physical proof they are dead. Plus the chance of capturing them alive still remained intact. Now, what I saw, the rocket that was fired that appeared to be the coup de gras was shoulder launched, not a hellfire, but possibly a LAW. so I think the helos were there only as a last resort option. I don't think they fired at all, as the U.S. troops were pretty damned close to the building for those guys to be freely lobbing hellfires into it.

[FSPilot 0]

Or maybe the US forces just took their time to avoid casualties?

Anyway, this stood out to me.

Quote[/b] ]"They (Odai and Qusai) are Iraqi people," said Waad Hamadi, 43, another neighbor. "We would not have told the Americans. Many people say he (Muhhamad) is the one, but there is no way he can come back here now. He is a traitor."

O & Q tortured and murdered the Iraqi people for years killing thousands of people. But they still want to protect them simply because they're from Iraq?