Crisis in chechnya

[killagee 0]

So many contadictions when you try to find out what is going on...

If anybody on this forum lives in the region or has a constructive view of this hidious conflict please post a response here.

Although I have been aware of this crisis since the start, I was amazed by the book "My war gone by I miss it so" by Anthony Lloyd. How come this conflict didnt / does not get the media attention that was showered on bosnia?

Here are some links to start you off if you are confused like me:

Official Chechen Republic Site

Crisis in Chechnya

Human Rights Links

Yahoo Media Links

WARNING: Above websites might link to explicit pictures. view at your own risk!

EDIT: Explicit images removed.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Don't you think that the last couple of images might break the rule on not showing any disturbing images?

I really do think the conflict in Chechnya should be given more coverage but since September the 11th, bad press on the Chechen conflict have basically dissapeared. The media was probably told to shut up about it since the Chechen rebels can be classified as terrorists.

Like I said in the ICC thread, I view the war there like I do with the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Both sides do horrible wrongs.

Russians shelling civilian areas and Chechen rebels executing Russian prisoners. It's not good, but since there isn't much focus on it, it is likely it will drag on and on.

[ralphwiggum 6]

due to violation of forum rule 2.4(explicit images) Kilagee has been PRed for sometime.

please do not post explicit images.

also, please keep discussion civil.

[Tovarish 0]

Believe no one and know that the situation is completely FUBAR. I would have said a decade ago that Yeltsin was the bad guy, in not recognizing Chechnya as a sovereign state after the fall of the USSR and setting off the first war, but then the Chechens got incredibly greedy with their invasion of Dagestan. They've also lost any moral high ground with the appartment building and subway bombings, and the theatre hostage crisis. Sadly, after all that, and with the ongoing attacks and suicide bombings, there are many Russians who would not at all mind seeing Chechnya nuked to hell and back.

[earl 0]

This is a good reference that gets updated often:

http://www.jamestown.org/pub_chechnya.htm

They seem pretty objective [*edit* nevermind, they don't like Russians very much], but consider that their website states: "The Jamestown Foundation's mission is to contribute to U.S. understanding of its strategic adversaries that pose a threat to democracy and freedom."

One thing I've read here that I haven't seen elsewhere in North American news is that one of the Chechen hostage-takers from the theatre in Moscow was well known to the Russian FSB, and suggests that some authorities might have known there would be a terrorist attack in Moscow.

The name I keep seeing everywhere is Anna Politkovskaya, a reporter well known for covering the Chechen conflict.  Try a search of her name and look for translated articles.

For a look at the lives of Chechens, check out the book Chienne de Guerre by Anne Nivat.  She's a french journalist who slipped into Chechnya disguised as a Chechen woman.  It's certainly biased, but I can accept that and read it for what it is.

[Tovarish 0]

One thing I've read here that I haven't seen elsewhere in North American news is that one of the Chechen hostage-takers from the theatre in Moscow was well known to the Russian FSB, and suggests that some authorities might have known there would be a terrorist attack in Moscow.

Osama was well known to the CIA and there had been warning signs of a forthcoming terrorist attack...I hope you don't subscribe to the "they saw it coming and let it happen to get another war" theory?

[earl 0]

Yeah, fair enough.  Let me change "well-known" to actively working for".  I'm not supporting the validity of this article, but read on for yourself:

http://www.jamestown.org/pubs/view/chw_004_015_001.htm

Quote[/b] ]MYSTERIOUS FIGURE IMPLICATED IN RUSSIAN THEATER TRAGEDY

Was last October's attack by Chechen terrorists on a Moscow theater actually a provocation organized by elements of the Russian security services--or at least known to them in advance, so that they could easily have prevented it? In the opinion of Novaya gazeta correspondent Anna Politkovskaya, the answer is yes, and the key figure in this shadowy operation was a Chechen serving as an agent for Russia's special services--one Khanpash Terkibaev. This mysterious figure unaccountably agreed to let Politkovskaya interview him. And although he has since denied the most sensational parts of her April 28 account of their conversation, he and the administration of Russian President Vladimir Putin have failed to provide any convincing alternative explanation.

Terkibaev's name first appeared in print long ago as one of those who seized the Moscow theater showing the popular musical Nord-Ost. Politkovskaya asked him if he had sued any of the news media for publishing his name in this fashion. He said he had not, because top Putin aide Sergei Yastrzhembsky had advised him to pay no attention to such stories. But according to her account--which Terkibaev has denied--he directly confirmed that he was indeed one of the band of October hostage-takers. Their conversation took place in the "Sputnik" Hotel on Moscow's Leninsky Prospekt.

According to Politkovskaya's article, Terkibaev showed her a document identifying him as a correspondent for "a government newspaper" (apparently Rossiskaya gazeta), but admitted that he has not done any writing for that periodical. Politkovskaya concluded that this journalistic affiliation is just a cover for Terkibaev's real work. The 30-year-old Chechen told her, she wrote, that he does not even show up for work at the newspaper, but is actually employed by the information section of President Putin's staff.

[...]

Politkovskaya wrote that she asked Khanpash Terkibaev if there had really been explosives with the hostage-takers, and that he said no.

Her article continued:

"It was precisely after Nord-Ost that the career of Khanpash sharply took off. He became a true 'comrade-in-arms' of the Putin administration, he was provided with all the documents needed to enable him to travel without obstacles to wherever he might be needed, and to maneuver between Maskhadov and Yastrzhembsky. He conducted negotiations in the name of the Putin administration with deputies of the Chechen parliament--these were necessary for the support of the referendum. He secured for these deputies guarantees of their immunity from prosecution if they visited Moscow. Khanpash, and nobody other than he, brought these same deputies to Strasbourg, in fact as leader of their group--to the highest offices of the Council of Europe and the Parliamentary Assembly, where these deputies behaved themselves perfectly under the direction of Rogozin, the chair of the Duma's committee on foreign affairs.

"By all appearances, Khanpash is that very person whom all of us who have been researching the Nord-Ost tragedy have long been seeking-the person who laid the groundwork for this terrorist act from within. According to information in our newspaper's possession (and he himself does not deny it), Khanpash is an agent planted by the special services. He entered that building together with the terrorists--as a member of their unit. He secretly, according to his own words, arranged for them to get into Moscow and then into the theater itself. It was precisely he who assured the terrorists that 'everything is under control,' that 'there are plenty of corrupt people,' that 'the Russians have again taken bribes,' just as they did earlier to allow passage out of besieged Grozny...that it was only necessary to 'make a noise' in order to produce 'a second Budennovsk' and thus to achieve peace--and that then, after the mission had been accomplished, 'they would allow us to escape,' though not everyone."

According to Politkovskaya's account, Terkibaev left the theater before the Russian commandos stormed it. He had a plan of the building, which even Baraev did not have, nor, at first, the commandos themselves. The reason for this, in her view, is that he was and is a part of those forces which stand far higher in the special organs' hierarchy than mere rank-and-file commandos. The essential point is that if there was such an agent in the theater, it means that the authorities knew about the terrorist action in advance--and that they took part in preparing it.

But just who among the authorities knew in advance? The Kremlin, Putin, the FSB? "Our authorities are not a monolith, nor are the special services," she wrote. "It is not true that the majority of the officers besieging the theater only pretended to be struggling with this tragedy and really knew that it was all a fabrication." So precisely who was it, from high in the Russian government, who gave Terkibaev his orders? To that question, Politkovskaya does not claim to know the answer.

[Tovarish 0]

Yeah, that's a good one, I like this one too:

Quote[/b] ]I've been strongly resisting coming to the best guess that 911 was a classic Mossad false flag operation, conducted with the full complicity of a Zionist political network loyal to Israel at the highest levels of the U.S. government, but some recent events have made it almost impossible to ignore the obvious.

This is the theory that best fits the known facts. It's not enough that the U.S. has failed to capture a single planner behind or perpetrator of the 911 WTC and anthrax attacks. It's not enough that the U.S. is even failing to show any interest in capturing these "evildoers." But now we have George W. Bush urging Americans to pay no attention to Osama bin Laden and to forget he exists. What's that again? Forget about OBL? And forget about the anthrax attacks?

OBL has conveniently been demoted from Lord Satan to a pesky "parasite," someone beneath our notice. You can't afford to capture "evildoers" when knowledge of the real identity and purposes of said evildoers would turn the popular understanding of 911 upside down and create the biggest crisis in American politics since the Civil War.

Then we have the frantic efforts to shift the focus of attention regarding 911 to Iraq, even though there is not a shred of solid evidence that Iraq was involved in the attacks, and that the campaign to attack Iraq is being masterminded and promoted by Israel and Israeli loyalists in the American government like Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle.

The question then arises: was the purpose of the 911 attacks to justify precisely this kind of military campaign, against the Palestinians, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt and on down the line?

Then there are reports about John Ashcroft, a militant Christian Zionist, demanding that the investigation into the 911 Israeli art student and movers spy rings be buried. Both spy rings appear to be closely-connected to the 911 WTC attacks in sinister ways about which Ashcroft would prefer to keep Americans in the dark.

Here's the best guest so far of what happened on 9/11/2001...

Osama bin Laden is a high level agent operated by the Israeli Mossad in cooperation with the CIA. OBL and his inner circle recruited the hijackers for 911, with the naive recruitees having little idea of what they were really getting into or about whom was pulling their strings (this was the false flag component of the operation). The hijacked planes were taken over on 9/11 by remote control -- the hijackers lacked the piloting skills to execute the maneuvers that were performed. Well-established procedures for handling situations of this kind were deliberately overridden by orders from on high within the Bush administration. The planes were allowed to hit their targets.

Now the government is engaged in a massive propaganda campaign to suppress any reasonable questions about 911. If the cover-up starts to fall apart, it is likely that more and worse terrorist incidents will be engineered, martial law will be declared, and any skeptics and dissidents will be imprisoned or murdered.

Now, if none of this true, why is the government doing its level best to make it appear to be true by its bungling and provocative behavior? Doesn't this entire operation -- both 911 and post-911 -- have a keystone cops quality about it that is highly redolent of Iran-Contra?

Anyone who thinks Israel is incapable of this kind of behavior should thoroughly research the Lavon Affair. Start by doing a simple Google search on "lavon affair". ( Its on this webpage. Click on the above link.-ed.)

Anyone who thinks Christian Zionists aren't capable of supporting Israel in this kind of behavior should take a close look at the attitudes expressed on Free Republic, a hotbed of Christian Zionist opinionating. Christian Zionists regularly express the conviction that Americans owe absolute loyalty and submission to the Israeli government, and that Israel and the United States should launch a campaign of genocide against Arabs and Muslims. Literally thousands of messages in this vein have been posted on Free Republic in the last few years, with the approval of Jim Robinson.

The most difficult thing to wrap one's mind around in this scenario is the idea that some Americans would participate in such a radical betrayal of their country and fellow citizens. But then you have to take into account the bizarre effects of ethnic and religious cultism on the human mind, particularly cultism animated by apocalyptic fervor.

If this scenario comes close to describing what happened on 911, George W. Bush and many other high-level government officials are probably as much out of the loop as the average American. They are no doubt asking the same questions in private that have been asked on the Internet. I hope this scenario is proven wrong in the near future.

I hope we catch the real culprits behind 911 and the anthrax attacks, and discover they really are whom the media have claimed they are. But if the weeks drag on and on with more government evasions on these issues, and not a single significant arrest or conviction, suspicions are going to grow and harden.

At this point, the only thing I am certain about is that we have NOT been told the truth. That the Israeli's were notified about the attack on the internet two hours before it occurred, that only ONE Israeli died in the attack, that the Israeli spy ring was discovered and then sent back to Israel without getting any answers, that the CELEBRATION of the Israeli group on the roof top in NYC took place....all these things point to Israel.

The media is run by about 50 American and Non-American Jews. Sharon said that America is run by Israel. I believe it. Look at the Marc Rich (Expatriot Jewish American) pardon. We are going to war against Iraq and others to satisfy them, not for our own nation's security. It could lead to Nuclear war. That may be the idea. Over 2/3's of our population could be destroyed. Preparations to protect and sustain the "important people" underground are in place here, in Russia, in China and they WERE in place in Afganistan until we destroyed their caves.

[earl 0]

hehe, i don't want to play this game anymore.

[Tovarish 0]

Good, it's old, predictable, not too clever, and quite boring. .

[Die Alive 0]

Failed Chechen Suicide Attack Kills Two Rebels

So close.

-=Die Alive=-

[The Frenchman 0]

"My war gone by I miss it so" by Anthony Lloyd.

Offtopic: I have that book. It was really good. That was interesting how the Chechens holded that one city longer than the Germans holding Berlin in 1945.  It problably didn't give large attention because they wern't countries but a civil war.