Human rights

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]True or a way to deter you from jaywalking again by punishing you in a financial way. By applying the death penalty you are not detering the criminal from anything. A point you could make is that you deter would be offenders but that has been proven not to work. There are still people killing each other in the states that do employ the death penalty.

It's hard to measure deterrence- it isn't like there are statistics of how many people don't commit murder on a yearly basis. Still, I imagine the death penalty serves a much better deterrent than 20 years with the possibility of parole at 15 years if you manage to hold off on prison breaks or raping your cellmate. Or didn't you know? That's about what the average 'life' sentence consists of. And I never said it was for deterrence- that's just a side benefit of the whole process.

And it means 'to be proved', or something to that effect. I just use it sometimes to feel smart

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tex [uSMC]- "Since a murderer has terminated the life of another human, he has forfeited his own right to live. That simple. Therefore, he should be removed from society on a permanent basis, and death is the most humane way to accomplish that removal."

Death by government is the most humane way of removing people from society? Well i guess its more humane on tax payers wallets, but humane to the families of the accused? ,humane to the many many people found innocent posthumously and those peoples families as well?

What do you say to the mother of the innocent man you killed thanks to an unsuccessful defence by his lawyer? How do you justify it?

Maybe "Hey shit happens, sorry!"?

Mistakes do happen and justice is necessarily imperfect. There are many other reasons but even for that reason alone i think the death penalty is a bad idea. Id far rather have slightly more crime than the spectre of my own government having killed people for crimes they did not commit. I dont believe governments in general have the right to kill people (war is an obviously wrong but perhaps inevitable anomaly), especially not in cold blood and not under the umbrella of 'justice'. There are exceptions when individuals pose a clear and present danger to the greater public but captured criminals do not. If there is another way (as there is) then i think that route must always be pursued first and i am very glad my country recognises this.

Not meaning to reignite this old favourite into a full blown diversionary argument , i just couldnt hold myself back  

[FSPilot 0]

I definately don't agree with the way the US handled immigrants after 09/11. I know a guy who could easilly get exported over the whole mess.

[Supah 0]

@ June 02 2003,01:51)]It's hard to measure deterrence- it isn't like there are statistics of how many people don't commit murder on a yearly basis. And I never said it was for deterrence- that's just a side benefit of the whole process.

Hard but not impossible. Simply look at countries using either system and compare those.

Quote[/b] ]Still, I imagine the death penalty serves a much better deterrent than 20 years with the possibility of parole at 15 years if you manage to hold off on prison breaks or raping your cellmate. Or didn't you know? That's about what the average 'life' sentence consists of.

Over here, in the netherlands, you have to serve two thirds of your sentence, after that you are either free or get TBS. TBS is mainly compulsory psychiatrical care without leave. This can last for a term to be set by a judge and you have to reviewed before release. So in essence you can get live, just not in prison. However many people here agree punishment is light and repeat offending is higher. Especially sex offenders cant be "cured" and i feel they should be kept in TBS for live.

Quote[/b] ]And it means 'to be proved', or something to that effect. I just use it sometimes to feel smart

Ah just curious ... i was testing you off course (that one never works)

[Supah 0]

I definately don't agree with the way the US handled immigrants after 09/11.  I know a guy who could easilly get exported over the whole mess.

I sincerely hope you mean deported Or is he being extradited to a foreign country? Then the word would still be extradited But i do hear that the US has become very paranoid about immigrants since 09/11, understandable offcourse but nevertheless sad. It shouldnt have to be that way.

[toadlife 3]

The death penalty does not detur crime. This has been studied extensively in the U.S.

In the United States, executing people costs seven times more money than keeping them in prison for the rest of their life. - except for maybe Texas.

Evidence suggests that many people who were falsely convicted have been executed in the United States, and dozens of people have been released from deatrh row and their sentences overturned with the advent of DNA evidence.

Better to accidentaly send someone up for the rest of their life, than to accidentaly send someone to their death.

Some have argued that we should require DNA proof in order to execute someone. This may save a few inncoent lives, but due to the human factor involved, inncoent people will innvetably die anyway.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

FSPilot- I think the word youre looking for is deported , anyway someone you know could be deported? that sux! (assuming they're not an assh0e)

Hey maybe criminals should be 'exported' for international criminal exchange programs! Criminals would be too busy sightseeing to commit crimes . Well thats my contribution to civil society for tonight

[Commander-598 0]

Quote[/b] ]The death penalty does not detur crime. This has been studied extensively in the U.S.

And ten years in prison does?

Of course, our death penalty consists of sitting on death row for 30-60 years eating food I described earlier. What a harsh sentence, especially when sometimes looking at a trial that lasts ten years.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Death by government is the most humane way of removing people from society? Well i guess its more humane on tax payers wallets, but humane to the families of the accused?

I prefer to save my sympathy for the families of the victims.

Quote[/b] ],humane to the many many people found innocent posthumously and those peoples families as well?

Link please? So far as I have seen (and I've done a fair amount of research on the subject, much of which has led to me seeing that a huge number of the statistical arguments against capital punishment are pure lies), not one innocent man has been executed. Now, many have gone to the chair before a legal technicality or loophole could be run down, but that is all. All death penalty cases go through an appeals process that can only be described as exhaustive, and by and large, public defenders are competent lawyers. As far as human systems go, the legal system that governs capital punishment is very good- and, since the people who have been exhonerated owe their continued existence directly to our open-ended appeals process, they are merely examples of the system's strength, not its weakness.

Anyhow, this is the point where I tell the uninformed that crimes of passion don't count- they are always pursued as either manslaughter or 2nd-degree murder, and therefore are not subject to capital punishment. The death penalty only covers premeditated murder, which means that the criminal was neither angry, nor insane, nor suffering from a lack of affection.

[toadlife 3]

@ June 02 2003,17:42)]

Quote[/b] ]Link please? So far as I have seen (and I've done a fair amount of research on the subject, much of which has led to me seeing that a huge number of the statistical arguments against capital punishment are pure lies), not one innocent man has been executed.

You asked for it: http://archive.aclu.org/issues/death/23executed.html

After you are done reading, why don't you post a link with some evidence to the contrary?

Quote[/b] ]

Now, many have gone to the chair before a legal technicality or loophole could be run down, but that is all. All death penalty cases go through an appeals process that can only be described as exhaustive, and by and large, public defenders are competent lawyers. As far as human systems go, the legal system that governs capital punishment is very good- and, since the people who have been exhonerated owe their continued existence directly to our open-ended appeals process, they are merely examples of the system's strength, not its weakness.

So, in essence, you're saying that our legal system is perfect! For this to be true people would have to be perfect. I don't know what you're, smoking but please pass it around the forums.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6

[toadlife 3]

And ten years in prison does?

Of course not. I never said cold blooded murderers should ever be able to regain their freedom. They shouldn't.

[Major Fubar 0]

I dunno what you guys are complaining about - at least in the US they generally give out decent prison terms for violent crimes. Here in Australia you can molest kids or rape a woman and be out in 18 months or less...

Death penalty? Thats a tricky one...I truly believe in some cases it is the most appropriate punishment for the crime. But can you ever be 100% certain the accused is guilty? I think capitla punishment can only be exercised if overwhelming physical evidence can be presented.

The issue of the cost of executions and time prisoners spend on death row is an administartion problem - if the death penalty is to be applied realistically, the system need a complete overhaul and the laws a rewrite.

But for people who think that prison terms are a "soft" option, think again. Imagine living for 20 years without freedom - without being able to go out and visit friends, go to a restaurant, go to a movie, go play a video game, go to a bar etc etc...it's pretty damn harsh really. Not to mention inmate violence etc. Anyone who claims a prison term is a walk in the park has obviously never been in prison and doesn't know anyone who has either. Of course, there will always be a small percentage of career criminals who have been inside so many times they get accustomed to the lifestyle, however.

And for people who pull out that old chestnut "But they have colour TV!"...I'm glad they do! Do you know how hard it is to find a black and white set these days? I don't want my tax dollars wasted on paying someone to run around looking for B&W sets for prisoners!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]You asked for it: http://archive.aclu.org/issues/death/23executed.html

After you are done reading, why don't you post a link with some evidence to the contrary?

Thank you for making this so easy. If you'd care to notice, all but one or two of those 23 executions occurred before the 1950's national freeze of capital punishment. Many could have easily been cleared up with forensic evidence, and many are the result of racial bias, which in the modern era would be jumped on by no less than 10 activist groups. Obviously, since the death penalty was reinstituted, we obviously have worked out the kinks. Not to mention, that first one does not appear at all cut and dried to me- I'd have to see more about the case before I'm prepared to concede the point on it. So what's your scorecard at? 22 innocent men in over 100 years, and those were results of problems now resolved in the legal process. Mend it don't end it, baby.

Quote[/b] ]So, in essence, you're saying that our legal system is perfect! For this to be true people would have to be perfect. I don't know what you're, smoking but please pass it around the forums.

<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6[/quote" target="_blank">]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6

</a>

zzz, seriously, now you're just boring and patronizing me. I never said that the legal system was perfect- what I did say was that there is enough redundancy built into the system now that any mistakes or miscarriages do occur will be caught. Incidentally, the ACLU's own site bears this argument out.

Also, I find it incredibly funny also that the ACLU's list is headed by the sentence: "Thanks to Modern Politics 23 Innocent People Have been Removed from the Living." Considering all but one occured over 50 years ago. Regrettable? Absolutely. Tragic? Of course. Problems that led to the tragedies solved? Yep. So anyhow, what were we talking about?

[toadlife 3]

@ June 02 2003,18:14)]Thank you for making this so easy. If you'd care to notice, all but one or two of those 23 executions occurred before the 1950's national freeze of capital punishment. Many could have easily been cleared up with forensic evidence, and many are the result of racial bias, which in the modern era would be jumped on by no less than 10 activist groups. Obviously, since the death penalty was reinstituted, we obviously have worked out the kinks. Not to mention, that first one does not appear at all cut and dried to me- I'd have to see more about the case before I'm prepared to concede the point on it. So what's your scorecard at? 22 innocent men in over 100 years, and those were results of problems now resolved in the legal process. Mend it don't end it, baby.

Oh I see! Before 1950 our legal system was flawed but now it's perfect. Your logic is flawed.

Quote[/b] ]...what I did say was that there is enough redundancy built into the system now that any mistakes or miscarriages do occur will be caught.

You are sadly mistaken.

[Major Fubar 0]

Just curious (I'm not 100% one way or the other myself) - what puropse do the pro-death penalty advocates see the death penalty as serving? Deterrent; insurance the perp wont reoffend; saving money for housing perps; or satisfying the communities sense of justice/revenge?

[FSPilot 0]

Supah

Quote[/b] ]I sincerely hope you mean deported Or is he being extradited to a foreign country? Then the word would still be extradited But i do hear that the US has become very paranoid about immigrants since 09/11, understandable offcourse but nevertheless sad. It shouldnt have to be that way.

IsthatyouJohnWayne

Quote[/b] ]FSPilot- I think the word youre looking for is deported , anyway someone you know could be deported? that sux! (assuming they're not an assh0e)

D'oh!

Yes yes, deported.

And he's actually a very nice friend of mine. He wanted to be an F-16 pilot but his card would of expired before he could enlist, so he decided to join the Navy, but a problem came up with his immigration there too, so now he's going to join the army and hope to fly apaches.

I really feel sorry for the guy.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh I see! Before 1950 our legal system was flawed but now it's perfect. Your logic is flawed.

The only place the word perfect has cropped up is in your posts. Perchance your eyesight is flawed.

Quote[/b] ]You are sadly mistaken.

Thank you for that glittering insight. Care to stop before one of us gets annoyed and we both get PR-ed for flaming?

[toadlife 3]

@ June 02 2003,18:36)]The only place the word perfect has cropped up is in your posts. Perchance your eyesight is flawed.

You claimed that our justice system today has enough safeguards to ensure that no one will ever be executed for a crime they did not commit. By stating this, you are implying that the system is in essence, perfect.

Would you like to change your stance on the subject and admit that some day, we may execute someone for something they didn't do?

Edit: If you want to change your stance, I'd like to know what an acceptable margin of error would be for you?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ June 02 2003,18:36)]The only place the word perfect has cropped up is in your posts. Perchance your eyesight is flawed.

You claimed that our justice system today has enough safeguards to ensure that no one will ever be executed for a crime they did not commit. By stating this, you are implying that the system is in essence, perfect.

Would you like to change your stance on the subject and admit that some day, we may execute someone for something they didn't do?

Edit: If you want to change your stance, I'd like to know what an acceptable margin of error would be for you?

Okay, since you are obviously more interested in arguing about what you wish I had said rather than what is clearly written, I'm just going to extract myself from this thread. Later.

[Supah 0]

D'oh!

Yes yes, deported.

And he's actually a very nice friend of mine.  He wanted to be an F-16 pilot but his card would of expired before he could enlist, so he decided to join the Navy, but a problem came up with his immigration there too, so now he's going to join the army and hope to fly apaches.

I really feel sorry for the guy.

Can you join the USAF as a non US national? Their "Go-pills" are quite "interesting" from what i read in the news

[FallenPaladin 0]

Sounds like the stuff they take here at the Love-Parade.

[reedkiller 0]

The death penalty could make murder more common as it makes life cheaper.

Does anyone know why people spend so long on death row? why don't they just kill them after conviction?

And how many innocent people are killed?

---An American once tried to sell tickets to his execution to fund his appeal, he was stopped---

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tex [uSMC]-

From the last site toadlife posted-

Quote[/b] ]Executed Despite Doubts About Guilt

There is no way to tell how many of the over 750 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some of those with strong claims include:

Roger Keith Coleman Virginia Conviction 1982 Executed 1992

Coleman was convicted of raping and murdering his sister-in-law in 1981, but both his trial and appeal were plagued by errors made by his attorneys. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider the merits of his petition because his state appeal had been filed one day late. Considerable evidence was developed after the trial to refute the state's evidence, and that evidence might well have produced a different result at a re-trial. Governor Wilder considered a commutation for Coleman, but allowed him to be executed when Coleman failed a lie detector test on the day of his execution.

Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction 1986 Executed 1997

New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd.

David Spence Texas Conviction 1984 Executed 1997

Spence was charged with murdering three teenagers in 1982. He was allegedly hired by a convenience store owner to kill another girl, and killed these victims by mistake. The convenience store owner, Muneer Deeb, was originally convicted and sentenced to death, but then was acquitted at a re-trial. The police lieutenant who supervised the investigation of Spence, Marvin Horton, later concluded: "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." Ramon Salinas, the homicide detective who actually conducted the investigation, said: "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." No physical evidence connected Spence to the crime. The case against Spence was pursued by a zealous narcotics cop who relied on testimony of prison inmates who were granted favors in return for testimony.

Leo Jones Florida Convicted 1981 Executed 1998

Jones was convicted of murdering a police officer in Jacksonville, Florida. Jones signed a confession after several hours of police interrogation, but he later claimed the confession was coerced. In the mid-1980s, the policeman who arrested Jones and the detective who took his confession were forced out of uniform for ethical violations. The policeman was later identified by a fellow officer as an "enforcer" who had used torture. Many witnesses came forward pointing to another suspect in the case.

Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000

On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.

Yes its a biased source, yes all of these people may have been guilty but equally as far as im concerned they may all have been innocent. Certainly a few of them could be. Dont you think it possible or likely that a few 'slip through the net' so to speak? Is that totally impossible now? I dont think so and if you do then we will have to agree to disagree.

In addition i think it immoral anyway for the state to kill its citizens in cold blood.

[Die Alive 0]

ROFL, there's a woman in Nigeria that's gonna be stoned to death because she had a baby outside of marriage.  But they're compassionate, they've let her live for 2 years so she can wean the baby.  Her front row seat at the Throwing Stones concert ( :P ) will be two days before her appeal date.  I hope she can catch enough stones with her face for 2 days, so she can make it to her court appeal date.

You got c_m on your face

You big disgrace

We're gonna smash this rock on your face.

singin'

WE WILL WE WILL ROCK YOU!!!!  

-=Die Alive=-

[Renagade 0]

Well i bet good portion of u here are criminals