Eu - federation or not federation?

[Postduifje 0]

The dutch gouvernment just aproved the "Eurpean president", and, as being one of the opposing "small" countries, it's a good sign for progress. They don't want to give the president much power, but I think it's best to let him/her have a symbolic function for a while, so we can all get used to the idea.

-Post

[Postduifje 0]

Oh, the dutch secretary of European affaires just said that, the gouvernment is deciding this friday.

-Post

[NurEinMensch 0]

Interesting things happening in Europe:

Deutsche Welle: Europe's Rebirth

Quote[/b] ]Habermas and Derrida have brought together some of Europe's most distinguished thinkers in an initiative that ensures Europe's intellectuals take part in designing Europe's future. Italian philosopher and novelist Umberto Eco, Swiss author and president of the German Academy of Arts Adolf Muschg, Spanish philosopher Fernando Savater and Italian philosopher Gianni Vattimo have laid out their ideas on the issues. American philosopher Richard Rorty has also provided his two cents in a response to Habermas' article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.

Looks promising, maybe we're slowly beginning to see the development of a "european public".

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]"We should not forget two dates," Habermas wrote, "not the day on which the newspapers communicated to their dumbfounded readers the oath of loyalty to Bush that the Spanish prime minister had extended to the pro-war European governments behind the backs of their EU colleagues; but just as little so February 15, 2003, when the demonstrating masses in London and Rome, Madrid and Barcelona, Berlin and Paris reacted to this coup." Habermas said that the European demonstrations against a war in Iraq would go down in history as a "signal for the birth of a European public."

I hate to disappoint you but the protests against the war were in no way exclusively Eurpean phenomenon. The people of just about every country on the planet were opposed to the war. Even in Britain there was over 50% against the war before the invasion. The only country that I know of where the majority of the population was pro-war was USA.

But Bush has in some odd way created a unity in Europe while at the same time creating a split. That split (apart from Britain) was however entierly disproportionate to what the opinion of the people was.

btw. Does anybody know when the EU constitution is going to be introduced for real?

[Supah 0]

I hate to disappoint you but the protests against the war were in no way exclusively Eurpean phenomenon. The people of just about every country on the planet were opposed to the war. Even in Britain there was over 50% against the war before the invasion. The only country that I know of where the majority of the population was pro-war was USA.

But Bush has in some odd way created a unity in Europe while at the same time creating a split. That split (apart from Britain) was however entierly disproportionate to what the opinion of the people was.

And the European response to it was far from uniform. Rather messy and sloppy. Like a barn full of chickens.

[Guest]

Here is the Revised draft of the constitutional treaty (part one)

The European Convention

This thing is a mess. It's never going to work. First each country has got tons of objections. Second the the constitutions have to be ratified in the national parliaments. Some countries are going to issue a referendum. So what happens if a few countries choose not to ratify it?

I'm quite pissed at Sweden's position and the position of several other smaller countries. Instead of looking at the big picture - what is good for Europe - they're only looking at what is right now best for them. Incredibly shortsighted.

I am very pro EU, but it badly needs a reform. First the people of Europe have to get involved in the political process. Second we need charismatic European (not national) leaders that can propagate the cause.

[MLF 0]

75% of British ppl (YouGov poll) dont want to agree to this new draft document if more power is given to Brussels, along with more stuff im not agreeing to is the removal of British Hallmarks from Silver etc etc which the Italians want (arnt they in power next term or whatever it is).

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Its an incredibly small issue but it may be representative. Why is it necessary to remove national hallmarks? Could there not be national and EU hallmarks together?

There is too much fondness for legislation in general in the continental EU (and certain people in the UK). It is not necessary to legislate on every tiny issue, especially not in a way detrimental to nation states. There can and will be an EU of nation states for a long time to come. The last thing the ruling powers of the EU should do is alienate the public of any particular EU country at this important point.

Then again i would like to know the source of MLFs information. The Daily Mail perhaps? ahaha

Anyway though i think im coming from a slightly different angle i agree with what Denoir just said, but unfortunatly i cant see much of a great movement for big reforms at the moment. In fact i think the UK could have a pivotal role in that but it would kind of ironically first require a full commitment by the UK to the EU program as a whole ,something not imminent.

[Guest]

Something for you Brits. From the constitution draft:

Quote[/b] ]

Article I-5: Relations between the Union and the Member States

1. The Union shall respect the national identities of its Member States, inherent in their

fundamental structures, political and constitutional, including for regional and local self

government. It shall respect their essential State functions, including for ensuring the

territorial integrity of the State, and for maintaining law and order and safeguarding internal

security.

Quote[/b] ]Article I-8: Citizenship of the Union

1. Every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union

shall be additional to national citizenship; it shall not replace it.

Quote[/b] ]Article I-59: Voluntary withdrawal from the Union

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the European Union in accordance with its

own constitutional requirements.

[MLF 0]

Then again i would like to know the source of MLFs information. The Daily Mail perhaps? ahaha

About the hallmarks, yes i did get that from the Mail, which i sometimes read, but before you go off on ur high horse about its tabloids and such, there is no way to sqew it, Italians want the british hallmark to disapear, and they are entering into the leadership role nxt term.

Btw Denoir, im just Anti EU, i dont like the Idea of an EU Superstate, it maybe well and good, but politicians all have there own agenda for there term in offiice not the big picture, all i see is countries getting screwed over, COuntries who are to timid to speak out against other countries not just britian.

[Schoeler 0]

Here is the Revised draft of the constitutional treaty (part one)

The European Convention

This thing is a mess. It's never going to work. First each country has got tons of objections. Second the the constitutions have to be ratified in the national parliaments. Some countries are going to issue a referendum. So what happens if a few countries choose not to ratify it?

I'm quite pissed at Sweden's position and the position of several other smaller countries. Instead of looking at the big picture - what is good for Europe - they're only looking at what is right now best for them. Incredibly shortsighted.

I am very pro EU, but it badly needs a reform. First the people of Europe have to get involved in the political process. Second we need charismatic European (not national) leaders that can propagate the cause.

Welcome to the world of constitutional politics. We had the same problem at our constitutional convention, the smaller states held up the ratification process, and we only needed 2/3 of them to ratify it!

The ability to withdraw from the union any time is a very bad idea.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Oh yes, yes, yes! The EU should become a federation of Europe and they should try to take over the world....so everyone will quit eyeballing the U.S. People like us a lot more when the was another superpower to compete with.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Oh yes, yes, yes! The EU should become a federation of Europe and they should try to take over the world....so everyone will quit eyeballing the U.S. People like us a lot more when the was another superpower to compete with.

I like to think of it in terms of firemen and policemen. Both serve equally important duties in a town, and both do heroic things in the name of civil service, but people invariably like the firemen better. Why? Because as soon as they're done being heroes and saving your ass, they get out of your hair. They don't bust into your house and issue citations for malfunctioning smoke detectors, or anything like that. Cops on the other hand, well... you get the idea. The world wants America to be its fireman, but it gets really bitchy whenever we start acting like the police.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Great analogy.

edit: heyyyyy....I want to be a VIP member too. ::jealous::

[Tex -USMC- 0]

edit: heyyyyy....I want to be a VIP member too.  ::jealous::

hehe, yeah, they had a vote a while back, and I think 4 of us ended up with them. I frankly don't know how I got one- wait, it was for best debater, which I guess means I'm the most obnoxious and annoyingly persistent hehe.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]I guess means I'm the most obnoxious and annoyingly persistent hehe.

Title thief.  

[Die Alive 0]

Please tell me this isn't true....

EU give swings the push

By JOHN COLES

A VILLAGE had to get rid of its playground swings because Euro rules say they are too TALL.

The three swings were erected more than 25 years ago.

Kids playing on them have suffered nothing worse than a grazed knee ever since.

But now Brussels bureaucrats have introduced a new maximum height order for swings throughout the UK.

The EU edict, European Standard BS EN 11 76, states the height of children’s swings must be no more than three metres (9ft 10ins).

The set at the park in Great Somerford, Wilts, are 60cm (2ft) over the limit.

The directive also includes a mind-boggling set of other rules including the distance from the seats to the frame and to the ground.

The Great Somerford swings were condemned during a routine inspection by playground equipment firm Wicksteed Leisure last month.

Now the seats have been removed to stop kids using the swings and a notice has gone up explaining why.

It has left Sarah Beeby, 11, Hannah Lonford-Brown, ten, and Luke Whitmarsh and Jacob Botterill, both five, bitterly disappointed.

Little Luke said: “It’s very sad. The park’s not exciting any more.â€

The EU standard is NOT law, but failing to comply could leave the parish council open to legal action if a child were injured.

The council is trying to raise Å4,000 to get new swings. It can’t simply raise the ground around the exisiting frames because steps aren’t allowed in playgrounds either.

Chairman Toby Sturgis said: “These are barmy regulations.â€

snif, snob, oh my, what brave children. Lucky for them, the EU knows best!

-=Die Alive=-

[HotShot 0]

I dont want to be ruled from germany, britain can do without EU interfearence, trade with em yes, but let them rule us nope, Britain is already treated like shit by the French, so no i dont want a federation, and the idea also of a EU Military force is a joke.

Yeah!

It will start off just a few things we all do here an there, but then the list will grow and grow, next thing you know we're driving on the other side of the road cause they say too  

I'd rather attach rocket boosters to Britain and "drive" it off to America (we can leave N. Ireland behind :P ) then be ruled by Europe.

[Pukko 0]

I voted for federation. And I will vote for the Euro this autumn in Sweden too.

The thing that scares me a little though is how a European identity is made up.

Will Europe unite against (and build an identity in contrast to) the USA in their more and more desperate attempts to remain strong (with continuing stuff like what we have seen under Bush junior)? Will after any eventual 'collapse-like event' in the USA, Europe then need another external force to unite agaist?

If so, I can only say that I dont like that kind of simplistic unification. On the other hand I can see nothing else than that Europe needs to rise fast to counter a more and more unstable USA; getting unstable due to a strong US-centrism in fundamentally changing times.

On the other hand, if Europe is built around a strong European identity - Europe will eventually follow in the same path. Eurocentrism is, or have been, the strongest force in the world (USA is also built around Eurocentrism, and most of the world is strongly influensed by it); at least when it comes to 'the construction of modernity'.

If Europe just strenghtens its ego, and the concept of Eurocentrism, I dont want to be part of it. The risk is very big though, that Europe becomes that big that the minds of Europeans never reach outside its regional borders. With a population more than twice that of USA, Europeans will very easily become even more narrowsighted than what is the case today for a majority of Americans.

If one wants a strong European identity, this is what comes with it, I'm sure. An Eurocentrism in (towards) the rest of the world much stronger, more influential and more hated than ever before.

So I say yes to a strong and united Europe, but let it be integrated in the rest of the world. Integrated as in part of it, not ruling it. Educational systems in the future need for example not focus primary on Europe, but rather primary on the world outside it. Stuff like that is fundamental for a positive globalisation I believe.

EDIT: One very positive Eurocentric thing is FOOTBALL though. Now a global phenomenon based on 'love' and mutual fun (yea, indeed also money); and most of all it is ofcourse - beautiful   Lets continue on that path...

[FallenPaladin 0]

I don`t like football, because it`s the stupid man`s politics. Hardcore football fans give a shit for anything else than football. They sky could come down on them and they wouldn`t even be interested in that, but dare to criticize their club... Then it`s war!

[attilauk 0]

Don't slag off european standards, i'm going to have to work to them in the future! ok some of them might seem pointless but they are only introduced for our safety!

P.s. football is a very poor game, rugby is far better!

[Vognsen 0]

Leave as it is

I fear that if EU turns into some federation, we would loose that identity which is so liked around the world. We can travel 600 km and get to a totally new place with a different culture than we are used to. If we turn into some federation, we would just be another US, which i certaintly hope never happends.

What we need to do, is to stop licking Bush arse *cough* Blair *cough* and start acting a little selvish. If we make it right, we can be all independent in a decade without the need of financial/technically support.

[mrukas 0]

Don't slag off european standards, i'm going to have to work to them in the future! ok some of them might seem pointless but they are only introduced for our safety!

P.s. football is a very poor game, rugby is far better!

you say tomato, i say american football!

[Guest]

Federation does not mean we all should become a homogenous mass. Very few people want the EU become USA 2.0, including most federalists. The idea is not to replace the different national identities but to recognize the similarities in certain interests we have. The core national insitutions will remain.

The idea behind a federal EU is resource sharing. One common market instead of 30 competing ones. Cooperation on large scale projects. Centralization of common institutions.

Take for example the Galileo project. There is a common European need for a system independent of the American GPS and Russian Glonass systems. No single European country could afford to launch such a system, but together it's no problem.

Now take foreign policy. While the interests from time to time are not equal it's still the only chance for an European country to get its voice heard. The options today is to follow USA's will or to stand on the side, bitching but unable to accomplish anything. One can just take a look at the Iraq war to see how Britain had no voice at all. It was just along for the ride which went any way Bush wanted it to go. Within a EU common foreign policy and defence Britain would have a significant voice and could influence things to suit its agenda and interests.

Sure, its independence will be smaller than when standing alone - but when standing alone it's powerless. Better to share power than not to have any at all, right?

This is the basic idea. You'll still have your queen and I'll still have my king. You'll still be British while I'll be Swedish.

This is nothing unique. There have been several multi-national empires in European history. Take the Austro-Hungarian Empire for instance. It encompassed several European countries and nations. You had Austrians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Hungarians, Slovenes, Italians... that were part of a common empire. They didn't get assimilated. They still had their national identity language and culture.

What they did have was a common 'federal' political layer, a common currency and a common military.

[MLF 0]

local laws will still be interefered with by the EU, tbh id rather they took it and stuck up where the sun dont shine

I say attach rockets and Sail down to AUS and close our borders and just get on with it.