Eu - federation or not federation?

[Jamesia 0]

The literary tabloid 'culture' in Britain is quite crazy and out of control. Its actually quite amusing to buy a Tabloid now and then. Just dont expect to get any actual news of course.

The whole point about the British Tabloids is how limitlessly  biased they are in everything. Including politics.

Without having command of the German language one can see some similarities and some differences in the websites

http://www.thesun.co.uk/

http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO

PAGE3 ISN'T the politics page.

[joltan 0]

Exactly. The movement for greater european union requires that we forget the past or at least our previous differences.

Forget the past? I think that's the worst you can do.

Hell, here in South West Germany in 1848 the Prussians came and slaughtered our revolucionaries (who had driven the local monarch off his castle and set up a civil government). A neighbouring kingdom allowed the troops to pass, and the result were 70 more years of monarchy and thousands of deaths (and a lot of people who emmigrated to the US and other nations). That neighbouring kingdom is now part of the same state, and the Governement is in Berlin (former Prussia).

That is still well remembered, and I can think of a few songs I heard and learned as a small child about that time. Does that stop anyone from working together and living together (happily, etc.)? No. People can differ. And while we still make jokes, the past is the past.

Remembering the past is important, but it shouldn't (and won't) stop anyone from working together. Same goes for WW1, WW2 and all the other wars and struggles that took place in Europe. If you forget them, you also forget what they cost you - and you might forget that Europe never had 50 years of peace in a row for several thousands of years... For Central Europe we now have 58 years of peace, that means we must have done something right.

Which is another reason why a federal Europe is such a bloody good idea.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Joltan- "A neighbouring kingdom allowed the troops to pass, and the result were 70 more years of monarchy and thousands of deaths (and a lot of people who emmigrated to the US and other nations). That neighbouring kingdom is now part of the same state, and the Governement is in Berlin (former Prussia).

That is still well remembered, and I can think of a few songs I heard and learned as a small child about that time. Does that stop anyone from working together and living together (happily, etc.)? No. People can differ. And while we still make jokes, the past is the past."

But thats presumably because you feel distanced from that particular past event and not much affected by it anymore. It is not the same for all people. Still a union is good in principle.

[Postduifje 0]

Indeed, Europe Yeej !

[Guest]

The whole point about the British Tabloids is how limitlessly biased they are in everything. Including politics.

Ok, the follow-up question would of course be why they are against the EU so much? Is it simply because scaring people sells more numbers or is there some other underlying cause?

[Postduifje 0]

Ok, the follow-up question would of course be why they are against the EU so much? Is it simply because scaring people sells more numbers or is there some other underlying cause?

Tabloids having an underlying cause? I don't think so...

[Donnervogel 0]

they could hardly defend their view that africa begins behind the channel then ;)

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I might ask 'Why is the european media against America so much? Is it simply because scaring people sells more numbers or is there some other underlying cause?'

If you doubt that european media is against America in general and at the moment particularly then look at european reporting in general (especially the 'cheaper' stuff) from an american perspective. Most of the Americans i have met or know in the UK are even shocked and surprised at the anti-american sentiments in the British press and its a lot more pronounced in continental europe.

To answer your question more directly it is obvious that sensationalist reporting sells papers, but talk of the EU seems to go to the heart of something in the British psyche. Words like 'Superstate' and 'Federal' can in certain contexts scare British people with visions of a terrible future in which we are controlled against our will by incompetant foreign bureaucrats. Scare stories of 'europe gone mad' appeal to peoples sense of outrage, harnessing real fears about the usurping of national sovereignty (of which many British people are very proud) and help sell papers but also of course reinforce political opinions of conservative newspaper editors/owners.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]with visions of a terrible future in which we are controlled against our will by incompetant foreign bureaucrats.

Sounds familiar

[Postduifje 0]

A very big problem is that allmost every concerned country has been the world most powerfull player once in time. After that, it's just hard to be ruled by someone else, even if you're partly involved.

-Post

[Donnervogel 0]

Quote[/b] ]I might ask 'Why is the european media against America so much? Is it simply because scaring people sells more numbers or is there some other underlying cause?'

I tell you two reasons. It's because the actions of the US were so completly contrary to that what the american taught us europeans after ww2. They thaught us that we shall live in peace and that wars are bad and so on. Well we learned and now our "hero" (and before the post 9/11 time the USA was really the country I respected most) started a war with a legitimitation that is questionable. I don't want to go to deep into this.

The secound reason is that Mr. Bush thought it was a good idea to piss of almost the whole world after he "was made" president. (Kyoto, Intenrational Court, etc.)

sure there are more reasons but that's nothing for this discussion

[Blaegis 0]

On a related note concerning common EU defense policy: Airbus signs the contract for 180 A400M military transport aircraft with the consortium of seven participating nations. Should be a step in the right direction. And hopefully it won't end like the Eurofighter...

[MLF 0]

I dont want to be ruled from germany, britain can do without EU interfearence, trade with em yes, but let them rule us nope, Britain is already treated like shit by the French, so no i dont want a federation, and the idea also of a EU Military force is a joke.

Stop reading The Sun and come back with a coherent argument ffs If you knew the slightest bit about the EU then you would know that Germany is the LAST country in the EU that currently has anything to say. With their budget deficit they ought to be happy not to get kicked out of the EU.

Furthermore, no single nation has a say in the EU, one vote is enough to stop a European resolution, which means that not one nation can "control" Europe. This is utter Murdoch-tabloid bollox that is spoonfed to idiots from  Wales and Yorkshire

I dont read the sun, i do read though that they are thinking creating if EU amolamates an EU president, btw im from Lancashire does that make me an idiot aswell, im sure flaming ppl because of where they live is not allowed on this board.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The EU already has a president...

[MLF 0]

@ May 28 2003,01:23)]The EU already has a president...

no more like a proper president, that can control each countries policies.

[MLF 0]

i would rather get stronger ties with the USA then with France and Germany. The EU is bad as it is, any stronger ties will make it worst. Many things from Asylum Seekers to Law will be governed by the EU.

the Current policy is to shift them to the next country till they reach britain.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ May 28 2003,01:23)]The EU already has a president...

no more like a proper president.

I wasn't aware that there was a difference.

[MLF 0]

read the edit.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

The whole point about the British Tabloids is how limitlessly biased they are in everything. Including politics.

Ok, the follow-up question would of course be why they are against the EU so much? Is it simply because scaring people sells more numbers or is there some other underlying cause?

Rupert Murdoch

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tex- "The EU already has a president..."

"I wasn't aware that there was a difference."

Currently the presidency of the EU rotates automatically to each of the constituent countries (something the smaller countries are very happy about). Presently Greece holds the presidency but it doesnt really confer much power at the moment. Thats something this constitution could change (at least a little). Dont take my word on this though. I havent really looked closely into the structure of the EU for a long time (i have found it rather boring in the past). Look it up on the net if you wish to know more. Im an EU citizen and i cant be bothered. Hah

[ralphwiggum 6]

Guess I missed the best party in the hood, but might as well as join in.

As I see, European nations will have HARD time getting into Federalism. Although there are lot of argument about diversity being nondistinctive, from outsider's perspective, europe still has a diverse culture. (I wishi I get to visit EU before it turns out to be a homogeneous place).

Ever since Roman Empire fall circa 800 AD, there has been constant diversity. Now, after 1200 years, we are trying to see if europe can unite. My comment would be that it won't be done in 100 years, but maybe 300 years or more. Current generation has no ties to old days of Charlemagne or Napoleon, but cultural elements embedded into each individual still excercises more influence on collective level.

Just because there are some technological advance, it doesn't mean others will get closer to another. For example, here in US, although TV got popular and widespread, the regional dialect is still strong, if not stronger.

Same thing for internet. We might be able to share ideas over the net, but that doesn't mean that we give a bit of our culture to accept other's.

so for EU Federation to happen, the time and effort should be applied to a big frame, such as hundreds of years.

At this point, I'd like to remind you what happened to the Confederacy when some evil dude took over the Senate. Even with the Jedis, it is such an evil Force that it should be carefully considered.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]That's the only quasi-positive side I see to it. But does that mean Cold War II?

Ha ha!, Sweeeet. Time to slay me some Euro-trash.

*inserts magazine*

*cocks weapon*

**puts safety on**

As for the debate: I'm not European (ok, I am but I don't live there) so I couldn't really give two sh*ts about what goes on in Europe. They can do what they want. It would be interesting to see how world politics would change with a unified Europe though.

But if the issue affected me I would rather have my own currency, language (ok, Canadian accent), and national identity. Along the lines of what Kegetys was saying: I would rather call myself a Canadian than a 'North American' and I suspect that many Canadians feel the same way. But apparently things are quite different on the opposite side of the ocean.

Tyler

[Bordoy 0]

But if the issue affected me I would rather have my own currency, language (ok, Canadian accent), and national identity. Along the lines of what Kegetys was saying: I would rather call myself a Canadian than a 'North American' and I suspect that many Canadians feel the same way. But apparently things are quite different on the opposite side of the ocean.

I'm English (or British, but lets not go there), and i would rather be English then European, and keep the pound and those other things that keep us English/British and independant.

[Guest]

I'm English (or British, but lets not go there), and i would rather be English then European

That's just silly. It's like saying "I'd rather be a Londoner than an Englishman!". You're both English and European.

Again, I find myself surprised at the British reluctance towards the EU. If I was stuck on a bloody island I'd be looking for alliances everywhere. Apparently not so for the British.

How exactly do you expect to survive? It's not like Britain is a colonail superpower any more. The major part of your trade is with the EU. At the same time you have a 200 years old industrial and residential infrastructure (apart from the big cities). Face it, Britain needs the EU more than the EU needs Britain.

[Oligo 1]

Hhm, this is just a wild theory, but maybe UK has the "we won the last war" syndrome? People are thinking along the lines of: "We won that last war, so damn it if we are going to give in voluntarily to THOSE bastards. We rule forever, ok?"

I see a partial manifestation of that syndrome here in Finland. Although we didn't win the double wars we had back in WWII, all people are still taught in school that we practically won, because the big bad soviet union did not occupy or annex us. So these people think: "We practically won the last wars, so damn it if we are going to give in voluntarily to THOSE bastards. We rule forever, ok?" It's like since so many people died to preserve our independence, it has become a holy thing to keep no matter what.

If you compare that to the rest of the european countries, most of them got their ass totally kicked by at least once during WWII. If you have no glorious victories to remember, you might be more pragmatic.

But then again, I'm probably wrong.