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Eu - federation or not federation?

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Ah you Europeans, you're so funny. Here you criticize the U.S. and the structure of the U.S. Constitution and yet you now encounter the same debates and problems with federalization that our founders did in 1787. Read the Federalist Papers and George Washington's farewell address for some perspective on this debate. Our smaller States too had a problem with losing sovereignty. They were worried that the larger States would drown them out and they wouldn't have a voice in the new federal government, so we devised our bicameral legislature giving all States two senators and an equal voice in the upper house, while the lower house was apportioned according to population. Not the most ideal of compromises, but I wouldn't be surprised if thats where you guys go too. The tricky part of federalism is the system of shared powers between the member States and the federal government. To properly balance that power you are going to need a third branch of some sort to act as referee in internal arguments. We have the Supreme Court, and that too is not perfect. You really should read the Federalist Papers, there are some interesting and very well made arguments on both sides of the issue that remain especially pertinent to you folks today. Good luck with this project. Remember, we Americans still haven't straightened it out after over 200 years of working on it and fighting a major civil war over the issue.

A very good point and exactly what I think is the way to go.

Personally I'd like to see something like "Founding Fathers II" happen here.

Yeah except how much history and bad blood was there between the states compared to EU nations. Not comparable in terms of difficulty of implementation. You are also looking at far more diversity than 3 peoples. smile_o.gif

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A Federation does not necessarily be all embracing. It could simply mean the establishing of an economical federation of states.

And this is what the Germans are most probably aiming for. All the rules and regulations that might appear ridiculous to you (standardising the size of the "european condom") facilitate the trade between the countries...sorry...I mean States.

"Standardisation" is THE vanilla strategy to foster market-compatibility. This consolidation however should not include cultural aspects. Europeans are too diverse...they are proud of their diversity and fear the american culture which to them is represented by WALT DISNEY and McDonalds, both considered as culture-killers.

In terms of economical goals the american solution is definetly more promising. You develop one single product and you can sell it to all people in your country.

In europe the nations are too diverse. Without a great product variety that adapts to national or cultural differences (and prides) a company is unlikely to succeed in more than one country.

Here the european union is on the right way. the single currency already eliminated the exchange rate risk (not being able to forsee the exchange rate and therefore not being able to forecast cashflow).

However political decisions have also to be taken. The imigration laws must work for ALL european countries so that the police forces can interact and apply common law. The same is true for subsidies, which should give equal chances to all european industries.

Finnland has nothing to fear. Cause their strengths are unique and only few countries can compete with them. They are just afraid of foreigners (as all small nations).

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I hope you count Sweden as one of those "Smaller countries" And i certainly dont want some kind of a President for the EU.

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I hate to sound harsh, but you folks should read up on your history a bit. True, Europe is diverse, but not really all that much more diverse than the original American colonies. We had religious differences and persecution going on between different colonies here. We also had the complicating factor of slavery and the Native American question to deal with. Our colonies very much thought of themselves as autonomous independent sovereign states. When we did what you are considering doing now, we were the first to do so. There were no examples to follow, we did not have the benefit of learning from other's mistakes. You do. The U.S. is an excellent template and lesson for you to learn from, you can incorporate all the best features of our Constitution and feel free to ignore the worst.

Bn880, there was an extreme amount of bad blood between the colonies over trade, religion, slavery, alliances with the French or with the British, dealings with Native Americans and just plain family, economic and political rivalry. We actually fought one another quite a bit.

Denoir, the American colonies were much more diverse than you are giving us credit for. We did not all speak the same language, and while its true that in Virginia, most of the colonists were of English or African descent, colonies like New York were heavily Dutch and German. We had Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese in Massachusetts, you name it. A lot of Europeans who were as diverse from one another (if not more so) than you folks are today came here to seek their fortune or escape persecution. Don't think we were some homogenous body eager to unite. As I said, it took over two hundred years and a civil war for us to get where we are now and we still have major regional differences here in the U.S.

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I hope you count Sweden as one of those "Smaller countries" And i certainly dont want some kind of a President for the EU.

You rooted for the Finish hockey team so you have no voice you traitor. You should be dragged out in the street and shot like the dog you are! crazy_o.gif  biggrin_o.gif

See? Regional problems  biggrin_o.gif

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We had Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese in Massachusetts, you name it.  A lot of Europeans who were as diverse from one another (if not more so) than you folks are today came here to seek their fortune or escape persecution.

You still have had a dominating side that could take the lead (i.e English speaking). We have three major players (France, Germany and Britain) who have been killing each other for centuries. All of them want to take the lead. And we're not talking about some backward colonists here but countries that have dominated the world .

Apart form that you can't compare the language problem here to the one in the New World. You had a select number of representatives from the colonialization powers that formed a clear majority.

With the new 10 countries we'll have 25 countries in the EU with 25 different languages (actually more, but never mind).

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We had Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese in Massachusetts, you name it.  A lot of Europeans who were as diverse from one another (if not more so) than you folks are today came here to seek their fortune or escape persecution.

You still have had a dominating side that could take the lead (i.e English speaking). We have three major players (France, Germany and Britain) who have been killing each other for centuries. All of them want to take the lead. And we're not talking about some backward colonists here but countries that have dominated the world .

And yet somehow, the entire point of the EU is to make Europe competitive with those same backwards colonists... rock.gif

Say it with me now: Americans are your friends

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What I fear is many people in Europe aren't aware of the magnitude of what is about to happen within the next decades. They don't see the chances and opportunities we have right now.

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I hope you count Sweden as one of those "Smaller countries" And i certainly dont want some kind of a President for the EU.

You rooted for the Finish hockey team so you have no voice you traitor. You should be dragged out in the street and shot like the dog you are! crazy_o.gif  biggrin_o.gif

See? Regional problems  biggrin_o.gif

I get this all the time tounge_o.gif

Swedes....  tounge_o.gif

You editing weasel  wink_o.gif

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Ah, but you also have modern communications and a better recent history of cooperation.  True you are more diverse, but your differences culturally aren't really that great.  Consider the cultural differences between Africans, English, Spanish, French etc.. that we had.  All of them were bent on expanding their empires and had no allusions of cooperating with one another.  Forging a nation out of all these divergent paths and cultures was no small undertaking.  It will be no less difficult for Europe today, and I expect the same growing pains we experienced, hopefully short of a full-fledged civil war.

Remember also, that the U.S. became increasingly more diverse in waves of immigrants from all over the world during its formative years.  For a glimpse of the diversity of the English colonies alone at the start of the independence movement, here is a link:

*Note:  This doesn't include French and spanish colonies in what is now the U.S., nor does it include a VERY diverse Native American population.

Ethnic Diversity of English Colonies in 1750.

Another link on diversity in the middle colonies:

Religious Diversity in the Middle Colonies.

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@ May 27 2003,18:45)]And yet somehow, the entire point of the EU is to make Europe competitive with those same backwards colonists...  rock.gif

You are hardly backward colonists today. I'm talking about your federalization back in the 1780's when you were just that.

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@ May 27 2003,17:27)]And what is so hilarious in EU military force, could you please explain.

the idea is hilaroius, 1st what happens when something like Iraq happens when its split on who wants to go and who dont want to go, also if this was to happen the EU over rules a countries judgment, i dont want this to happen, Germany and france try to play superpowers but when it comes down to it they cant. leav each county to its own, if we want to become an amalgamation of countries the only condition it would eb under that i would agreew ith was if it was worldwide.

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*Note:  This doesn't include French and spanish colonies in what is now the U.S., nor does it include a VERY diverse Native American population.

I don't think you can take what happened to the Native American or African populations as successful examples rock.gif

You are right on one part, and I mentioned it too before: we have the big advantage of modern communications. I think that makes the difference and in the end will make the British see that the French don't bite and assure the French that the Germans have no plans (yet tounge_o.gif) of rolling into Paris etc..

I must say however that I'm very surprised at the isolationist tendencies of the majority of British people. Why are France and Germany so pro-EU while Britain is so sceptical?

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What if the whole world becomes one country. We could call it "SD" The down side is that it would make sport events like the olympics boring. Also, names like "German shepherd" would be SD Shepherd only.

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@ May 27 2003,18:45)]And yet somehow, the entire point of the EU is to make Europe competitive with those same backwards colonists...  rock.gif

You are hardly backward colonists today. I'm talking about your federalization back in the 1780's when you were just that.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far  smile_o.gif  just the other day some lady in California stuck her kid in a washing machine... I was just pointing out that we're backward colonists who have done very well for ourselves  tounge_o.gif

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@ May 27 2003,17:27)]And what is so hilarious in EU military force, could you please explain.

the idea is hilaroius, 1st what happens when something like Iraq happens when its split on who wants to go and who dont want to go, also if this was to happen the EU over rules a countries judgment, i dont want this to happen, Germany and france try to play superpowers but when it comes down to it they cant. leav each county to its own, if we want to become an amalgamation of countries the only condition it would eb under that i would agreew ith was if it was worldwide.

That's the whole point of a unified military and politics. Right now you had France and Germany barking like small dogs who everybody ignored while Britain had its head deep up Bush's arse. It only showed that the only option for European countries was to be powerless or to attach themselves to USA's back.

That's what we want to avoid in the future. Unless of course you like Britain to be USA's little knee dog.

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@ May 27 2003,19:00)]
@ May 27 2003,18:45)]And yet somehow, the entire point of the EU is to make Europe competitive with those same backwards colonists...  rock.gif

You are hardly backward colonists today. I'm talking about your federalization back in the 1780's when you were just that.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far  smile_o.gif  just the other day some lady in California stuck her kid in a washing machine... I was just pointing out that we're backward colonists who have done very well for ourselves  tounge_o.gif

I know, I was just being nice tounge_o.gifbiggrin_o.gif

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True, the history of African and Native Americans is very sad indeed, but they did have a profound influence on the forming of the United States. African slaves numbered over 500,000 or about 2/3 the population of the southern colonies. Their culture despite the best efforts of the white population, had a significant impact on U.S. history. The same holds true for the Native Americans. Look how long it took to defeat tribes like the Sioux and the Apache. Those folks operated as sovereign nations right up until the early 1900's. The Apache surrenedered only because they grew tired of fighting and hiding as a way of life. Until then, they were kicking U.S. ass.

We also had significant waves of imigrants from all over the world and especially Asia right before the Civil War, which really was the last battle of the American Revolution, and settled the question of federalism and nationhood hopefully for all time.

Here's a link to U.S. immigration patterns pre-civil war:

Immigration History of the U.S.

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There is one big advantage that USA had: a common enemy. The English speaking colonist didn't like the British, the French didn't like the British and the Spanish didn't like the British.

I think however that the European diversity is a big asset if it can be made to work together. Every country has historical alliances around the world and that minimizes the risk that our federation would go and invade another country just for the hell of it.

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You also have some very strong ties with one another as well. Look at the Scandinavian countries. Ties between Germany, Austria and Holland. Eastern Europe is a mess in some places and very close knit in others. Now if you could just shake those damned independent French! tounge_o.gif

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You also have some very strong ties with one another as well.  Look at the Scandinavian countries.

Yes! The finnish military, cellphones and knowledge in everything plus the norweigan oil, the Danish Beer. Oh and the swedish .. um .. woods.

This could work, it really could!

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As an American, I'd like to see a unified, federalized Europe. I don't like the way my country is going and I'd like to see some kind of international check on our power.

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Me too. I think its inevitable. For the Europeans to keep up in the modern international political and economic system, they are going to have to challenge the U.S. and eventually China head on. To do this effectively requires unification.

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I think a federal state would be great. It would prevent member states blocking each other and make it easier to act as one (thus having more weight) in international issues as opposed to a bunch of ever-struggling seperate nations. While the single nation may loose some independence, everyone gains. And nobody would be governed "by the Germans" or "by the French" - but by a mix of people from all those federal states.

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