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PitViper

Tears in the bundeswehr

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've been trying to think of a resonable reply to this, but they all end up sounding more than a little insulting.

So, I'll simply say, I disagree strongly.<span id='postcolor'>

Mutual feelings here.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 12 May 2003,23:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ 13 May 2003,15:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How would you react if protecting the jews would mean getting killed?

Would you be a jew lover?  I don't think so...  I bet most of those anti semetic ppl weren't anti semetic at all, they just didn't want to die...<span id='postcolor'>

what a load of...<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah.... sure....

*sigh*

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (der bastler @ 14 May 2003,16:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw: What's the abbreviation of the US-president's bodyguard unit? confused.gif<span id='postcolor'>

USSS

I do know that Austria's premier counterterrorist group, the GEK Cobra, is short for Gendarmieeinsatzgruppenkommando, so I doubt there is any special significance. It essentially (drawing from my limited knowledge of German, so bear with me) just means 'a group formed for a special purpose'.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ 14 May 2003,18:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">'a group formed for a special purpose'.<span id='postcolor'>

Task Force anyone wink.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ 14 May 2003,18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wow.gif6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ 14 May 2003,18wow.gif6)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">'a group formed for a special purpose'.<span id='postcolor'>

Task Force anyone wink.gif<span id='postcolor'>

missed that post smile.gif

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amazing... so antisemitism was not rampant in Europe in the 30's and 40's. uh huh... right.

I know there was significant antisemitism in America at the time but it was definitely nowhere near the level in Europe.

ok.. I understand your point about einsatzgruppen being a more generic term however, I'd just like to add that "wehrmacht" was just as much a "generic" term.  Heh.. i think its replacement term "bundeswehr" is a silly oxymoron.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">amazing... so antisemitism was not rampant in Europe in the 30's and 40's. uh huh... right.

I know there was significant antisemitism in America at the time but it was definitely nowhere near the level in Europe.

ok.. I understand your point about einsatzgruppen being a more generic term however, I'd just like to add that "wehrmacht" was just as much a "generic" term. Heh.. i think its replacement term "bundeswehr" is a silly oxymoron. <span id='postcolor'>

Well I have the impression that you don´t understand at all.

Wait a minute...

When were blacks in the US given their rights ? crazy.gif

Your lack of understanding german language although some germans including me tried to explain the expression that carries NOTHING with it that you needed to be worried/upset about, only shows me that you DONT WANT to understand it. To try to force it into a Nazi direction now is bad taste. Very bad taste Pit. mad.gif

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He doesn`t want to understand. He just seems to need to bash another nation (in that case us bad Germans) .

Still mad because of the general critics towards the US foreign policy. smile.gifwink.gif

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In addition to that, Pit:

Don`t you ever dare to compare the current Bundeswehr and the Wehrmacht under Hitler in WW2!! mad.gifmad.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ 14 May 2003,14:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well I have the impression that you don´t understand at all.<span id='postcolor'>

No. I think you are misunderstanding me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When were blacks in the US given their rights ?  crazy.gif<span id='postcolor'>

uuhhh.. Talk about out of left field!  What brought about this question? You seem to be confusing my question regarding the scope and depth of antisemitism in the 30's and 40's in Europe with an accusation of antisemitism today in Europe (which is a completely different discussion). In case you are confused,  I'm speaking clearly of that historical era. Why was it brought up? because Denoir stated a while back in another thread that it was isolated to Nazi party members and I simply brought up this tidbit now from an article from this thread which regarded it as concrete fact.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your lack of understanding german language although some germans including me tried to explain the expression that carries NOTHING with it that you needed to be worried/upset about, only shows me that you DONT WANT to understand it. To try to force it into a Nazi direction now is bad taste. Very bad taste Pit.  mad.gif<span id='postcolor'>

You are confused again.  I was under they impression that the defeated Germans renamed most major institutions in its country to disassociate itself from its debacle in the 30's and 40's.  I was asking why a particularly sinister group of soldiers didn't get renamed to conform to the above principle.  In case you didn't understand, I accepted the reason that it was too generic a term, yet, the other institutions like the wehrmacht as just as generic terms, so then, I'm curious about the entire reason for changing the names in the first place?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ 14 May 2003,14:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don`t you ever dare to compare the current Bundeswehr and the Wehrmacht under Hitler in WW2!!  mad.gif  mad.gif<span id='postcolor'>

uhh.. What was wrong with the wehrmacht? It was the leadership and the SS that were despicable...

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I guess I misunderstood you. You mean Wehrmacht hadn`t to be changed at all cost, because it wasn`t bad in general?

Well, we Germans are great in banning expressions. confused.gifwink.gif

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hmm.. perhaps things weren't simply "renamed". I need to research the reconstitution of Germany after its defeat.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 14 May 2003,20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why was it brought up? because Denoir stated a while back in another thread that it was isolated to Nazi party members and I simply brought up this tidbit now from an article from this thread which regarded it as concrete fact.<span id='postcolor'>

I havn't posted anything in this thread, and I don't know which one you are refering to. Most likely you misunderstood me or I expressed myself incorrectly. In the 30's there was a massive wave of anti-semitism in Europe among all social layers in most countries. Now if the anti-semitism was inspired by the Nazis or vice versa, I'm not sure. Probably both.

There is of course a big step between being an anti-semite and that you actually go out and start killing people. A vast majority of Europeans did not kill Jews. The majority of the people were also kept in the dark about the mass murder that was taking place and most people did not want to know. A vast majority of the Germans at least claimed that they had no knowledge of the concentration camps.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ 14 May 2003,15:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I havn't posted anything in this thread, and I don't know which one you are refering to. Most likely you misunderstood me or I expressed myself incorrectly. In the 30's there was a massive wave of anti-semitism in Europe among all social layers in most countries. Now if the anti-semitism was inspired by the Nazis or vice versa, I'm not sure. Probably both.<span id='postcolor'>

It was in a WW2 thread in the past regarding the rise of the Nazis and their popular support. Well, at least its been clarified now.

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The Bundeswehr is a reflection of the german society with it´s still present conscription, and our economy will have a budget deficit of an estimated 126 Billion EUR by 2006.

This of coarse also affects the Bundeswehr and the ongoing reform, savings in form of a new proposed bill would authorise the federal states to decide about the method, extend, dynamic sampling and retirement pay capability of the current special- und vacation bonus soldiers are receiving. With that fundamental change the rationale of uniform payment throughout the german army considering the above points, would be no longer given. The federal states could pay the soldiers as they see fit, according to the current situation of their very own cash box. If you put the puzzle together, you will be able to understand why soldiers are worried about the situation.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ 14 May 2003,20:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In addition to that, Pit:

Don`t you ever dare to compare the current Bundeswehr and the Wehrmacht under Hitler in WW2!!  mad.gif  mad.gif<span id='postcolor'>

I do dare! Cause the Wehrmacht in WWII was an ordianry military force that had no ideological boundaries with Hitler. In the later years that changed when ideology was a necessary tool to hold up motivation. Unlike seen in all Hollywood film no german Wehrmacht soldier raised his straight arm as a standard procedure. They kept their ordinary military greetings untill late in the war. Also, dont forget that it was the Wehrmacht  that planned the  Assassination of Hitler. Most german officers were spoken free of the Nuerenberg trials and later on served in the Bundeswehr. You can accuse them of many things, but to proof ideological collaboration is a dangerous thing.

For those of you that speak german I add the point of accusal of the Nuerenberg trials:

1. Verschwoerung gegen den Weltfrieden

2. Planung, Entfesselung und Durchfuehrung eines Angriffskrieges

3. Verbrechen und Verstoesse gegen das Kriegsrecht

4. Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit

For any soldier of the Wehrmacht I would accept point 2b (durchfuehrung eines Angriffskriegs). But then again what about US soldiers in Iraq?. Non of the allied considered the Wehrmacht as a criminal organisation. Those were the  NSDAP, SS, SA, Reichsregierung, Generalstab, Gestapo und Sicherheitsdienst.

The two terms Bundeswehr and Wehrmacht arent so opossing after all. Both include the term defense. Just the term "power" was eliminated after WWII. Anyway, "powerfull" would have been a pretty ridiculous description of what was left of it afterwards.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 14 May 2003,20:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">amazing... so antisemitism was not rampant in Europe in the 30's and 40's. uh huh... right.

I know there was significant antisemitism in America at the time but it was definitely nowhere near the level in Europe.  

ok.. I understand your point about einsatzgruppen being a more generic term however, I'd just like to add that "wehrmacht" was just as much a "generic" term.  Heh.. i think its replacement term "bundeswehr" is a silly oxymoron.<span id='postcolor'>

antisemetism in europe is older tnah hitler, older than Germany as a country even older than the USA! it was always present, just remember all the "crussades" against jews in the thirteenth century. but these were the middle ages.

i learned in school that, in the 20ies, jews were also a very important part of society in the town I live. they founded the sports club and were honorable soldiers in WWI! all the anti-semetism came with all the propaganda and when SA started to stay in front of their shops and held people back from shopping there.

Bundeswehr isn't just a "replacement term", it's the name of a completely new organization! maybe the syllable "-wehr" made you think it's a replacment for Wehrmacht because it was the German army in WWII. Bundeswehr can be translated to "federal defence forces".

just like "Oberster Bundesgerichtshof", which means federal surpreme court. or "Deutscher Fussballbund", which means German Football Federation. wink.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 14 May 2003,21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hmm.. perhaps things weren't simply "renamed". I need to research the reconstitution of Germany after its defeat.<span id='postcolor'>

The wehrmacht was disolved with the capitulation 1945 - Germany didn't have any military forces up to several years later - and then it was only against strong public oposition that the governement established the "Bundeswehr". A name that basically translates to "Federal Defense". The structur and aims of the Bundeswehr have always been VERY different from the Wehrmacht (an offensive army - the name translates to "Defensive Power"). Up to the 90's the Bundeswehr was stricly defensive and had no mandate to act outside German territory (but for training).

Also note that most "names" for institutions (and many other things) in German aren't really names but descriptions - just words combined to form a new word. As such the order of the words in that description really makes a difference in as far as the meaning is concerned. And for the same reason words like "Einsatzgruppe" are still used - they just describe the thing they mean.

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"Also note that most "names" for institutions (and many other things) in German aren't really names but descriptions - just words combined to form a new word. As such the order of the words in that description really makes a difference in as far as the meaning is concerned. And for the same reason words like "Einsatzgruppe" are still used - they just describe the thing they mean."

Interesting. German is not a language i have ever really studied. I have wondered before why the Bundeswehr was not just called 'German army' . Is it an incorrect way of naming? Does it not translate adequately?

The best i can do is 'Deutsche Armee' (?)

Is that totally wrong?

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no it's not wrong. Ipersonally don't know why it's called Bundeswehr.

might be tradition? the army of the German Empire and Weimar Republic was called "Reichswehr".

Israeli army is also called IDF - Israeli Defence Force.

Japanese army is called JDF.

and German army is... Bundeswehr... biggrin.gif

Wait... Bundeswehr isn't only the army. it consists of the "Heer", "Luftwaffe", and "Marine". So it's a term for all armed forces.

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It's rather simple, look at another vocable:

A fire department (AE) or a fire brigade (BE) is called "Feuerwehr" in Germany. "Feuer" = fire. "Wehr" = fortification; defence/defender.

As mentioned before the army of the "Weimarer Republik" (1919-1933) was called "Reichswehr". The new postworldwar2 german republic wasn't a "Reich" (kingdom) but a federation, therefore it's army was named "Bundeswehr". "Bundes-" = federal. "Wehr" see above.

"Wehrmacht" was the name of the german army from 1935 to 1945. It's a term which came up in the Nazi-time... obviously not very qualified as name for the new democratic army.

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hmm. I thought "wehr" translation was "offensive war" and  not "defense". my mistake.

"wehrmacht" = defense maker?? no.. I think "war maker". Or am I completely wrong?

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I think you cant clearly translate "Wehrmacht" into English, its not possible because it has its own german meaning. This is my opininon.

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