Tears in the bundeswehr

[PitViper 0]

Reading through some German newspapers, this piqued my interest

http://archiv.tagesspiegel.de/archiv/12.03.2003/475047.asp

The number of complaints from soldiers are going up dramatically .  Are the conscripts getting softer or are they complaining that they have to do more missions now in the world?

[Die Alive 0]

Got an english link?

I got this translated:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Frustration in uniform

Never so many soldiers wrote the defense delegate like 2002 / criticism of long foreign deployments

THE DEBATE AROUND THE FEDERAL ARMED FORCES

Of Robert Birnbaum

Willfried Penner sees prevented from itself of office because of the clear word. It recommends itself all the more more, with which defense delegate of the Bundestag on half sentences to respect. The numbers, Penner says for example, would give already occasion to think about about whether in them also „Hader did not express itself and Unzufriedenheit“. That had reference to the not usually high interest in the early retirement program of the Federal Armed Forces, could be used however just as also on the entire year report of the defense delegate. 6463 petitions per year 2002 are not only one-third more than in the year before that, but rather also the highest petition quota of all times, bias in the course year further increasing.

Doubtful the record becomes in the view on that how it comes into being. The time soldier and occupation soldiers who unload its worries are more and more. They hold together with the reform pressure in the army. Penner names the complaint over the six-month use duration, makes however also on massive sequences for the army in the inland attentively, that had to manage always more frequently with material deficiency as well as personnel deficiency: „Soldaten, that overcharges and are only passive present, can the reaching of yet so well meant goals erschweren.“

At the same time it concerns in no way only material questions. Increasing problems of the troop with the characteristic occupation understanding are, what makes Penner recognizably yet more worries. A „Grummeln“ it has in its visits at the basis vernommen that one would be yet always only the stupid in the large political game. Penner sees that specifically not so. The discontent does not make to create it therefore fewer. Let that over money discussed would become, be yes legitimate, says it. But that would not be allowed to lead in addition, loses „dass the soldier as a citizen in uniform its place and to the mercenary as a military costs factor mutiert“.

The danger sees is Penner obviously; all more the more more, ever more already again of new Abstrichen the speech. A reform recess? To the question, Penner wants to say specifically nothing. What so rather the eloquentest answer is, that one can think himself.<span id='postcolor'>

-=Sterben Sie lebend=-

[PitViper 0]

unfortunately not.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

goddamn whimps. There are people like me that leave their girlfriend in order to see the world and those soldiers (that even get extra money) complain. I still dont get what is so bad about it. There was a time when soldiers lost motivation the longer they were out of action!

[MLF 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ 10 May 2003,13:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">goddamn whimps. There are people like me that leave their girlfriend in order to see the world and those soldiers (that even get extra money) complain. I still dont get what is so bad about it. There was a time when soldiers lost motivation the longer they were out of action!<span id='postcolor'>

have you been in the military?

[Balschoiw 0]

The german army is no professional only army. Guys have to do a minimum service or work in hospitals etc.

This plus the changed international role of the Bundeswehr plus the extension of rights for soldiers lead to the complaints wich are in general abouit better payment, shortened stays abraod and such. I don´t see anything dramatic here, but maybe it´s just me.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ 10 May 2003,17:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The german army is no professional only army. Guys have to do a minimum service or work in hospitals etc.

This plus the changed international role of the Bundeswehr plus the extension of rights for soldiers lead to the complaints wich are in general abouit better payment, shortened stays abraod and such. I don´t see anything dramatic here, but maybe it´s just me.<span id='postcolor'>

Seeing as a record number of people want to do civilian rather than military service, and seeing as there is no more large scale threat at Germany's border, and seeing as a lot of (old) equipment is not really used, and seeing as national service is down to a ridiculous 6 months now, do you advocate the change from a conscript army into a professional army?

[Balschoiw 0]

YES

In fact whenever you have to work with guys serving their time you get pissed. They only want to sit on their asses and finish their time. By shrinking the BW and making it more specialized and highly skilled like some troop branches already are (we are not afraid of international military competitions as we win a lot ) we can kill 2 flies with one smash. Get rid of that guys who only slow down training and education and often start unrest within their groups and save money. A professional army would be cheaper in the longterm. It´s not only the payment the recruits get, but also the costs for food, lodging, clothes and equipment. The equipment often isn´t maintained properly by timers. They don´t care about their gun or vehicles as they only serve a very short time and don´t have to take part in international issues. I have seen wrecked, wolf´s, wrecked m113´s, wrecked Leopard 2´s, wrecked rifles...

As a matter of fact people that do have to rely on their equipment during missions will keep it in excellent condition to guarantee that it works when they need it.

Professional army is bitch here in germany as some politicians are a bit afraid of the memories we still have to deal with when it comes to WW2 but I hope they will hop over their shadows and give way for a professional army. This would be the time where I want to join the BW for active service again. By now I enjoy the professional training and spirit we have on the UN branch and I do my best to spread that spirit to people with brains and a feeling for responsibility.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Well thats that decided then. Professional it is.

Id welcome a professional German army. The world is very different from the time of WW2 and i trust the germans not to become fascist expansionists again . More than the Americans anyway

[Warin 0]

I agree that a professional Army isnt a bad thing. After all, the collective German memory of what was done in WW2 will likely mean it wont happen again. And the EU as a group makes it less neccesary to worry about inter-nation agression among EU members.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Memo to me:

1. Invade the Netherlands and take all their cheese.

2. Invade France, because... well, they are french.

3. Invade Poland and take back our cars.

4. Invade Italy. Their tanks have 5 gears backward and only one forward.

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ 11 May 2003,13:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Memo to me:

1. Invade the Netherlands and take all their cheese.

2. Invade France, because... well, they are french.

3. Invade Poland and take back our cars.

4. Invade Italy. Their tanks have 5 gears backward and only one forward.

   <span id='postcolor'>

the Netherlands? I wouldn't go there just for cheese...

Bundeswehr never could invade France in it's current situation.

[PitViper 0]

so.. which ones of you were conscripts

[9mm 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3. Invade Poland and take back our cars.<span id='postcolor'>

Your cars have been already disassembled and shiped eats from here.

[PitViper 0]

I have a question. Why does Germany still use the name "einsatzgruppen"? I was surprised to see this when searching German military sites for info on the KSK. I mean, the Germans practically renamed every organization to "bundes"-something or other after the end of the war. Why didn't they rename the einsatzgruppen after it became universally known for its distinct mission of hunting and murdering Jews?

Balschoiw?

[Transfunsel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 12 May 2003,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have a question.  Why does Germany still use the name "einsatzgruppen"?  I was surprised to see this when searching German military sites for info on the KSK. I mean, the Germans practically renamed every organization to "bundes"-something or other after the end of the war.  Why didn't they rename the einsatzgruppen after it became universally known for its distinct mission of hunting and murdering Jews?

Balschoiw?<span id='postcolor'>

einsatzgruppen is very neutral and simply means task force, no more and no less. I have never heard the term of einsatzgruppen specifically for murdering jews. hitler's bunch always used sadistic, cynical names for their purposes, e.g. "endlösung" (final solution)

sorry for using that word, but I think you get the idea.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 12 May 2003,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have a question.  Why does Germany still use the name "einsatzgruppen"?  I was surprised to see this when searching German military sites for info on the KSK. I mean, the Germans practically renamed every organization to "bundes"-something or other after the end of the war.  Why didn't they rename the einsatzgruppen after it became universally known for its distinct mission of hunting and murdering Jews?

Balschoiw?<span id='postcolor'>

Why do you Americans still use the name "1st Cavalry" when the Cavalry was known to slaughter Native Americans

Just as silly, really

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ 12 May 2003,17:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 12 May 2003,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have a question.  Why does Germany still use the name "einsatzgruppen"?  I was surprised to see this when searching German military sites for info on the KSK. I mean, the Germans practically renamed every organization to "bundes"-something or other after the end of the war.  Why didn't they rename the einsatzgruppen after it became universally known for its distinct mission of hunting and murdering Jews?

Balschoiw?<span id='postcolor'>

Why do you Americans still use the name "1st Cavalry" when the Cavalry was known to slaughter Native Americans

Just as silly, really <span id='postcolor'>

google it and see what comes up for the first 35 entries. Here's a sample:

http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/einsatz.html

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/nazi/organisationen/einsatzgruppen/

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/einsatztoc.html

http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/einsatz.html

http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/einsatzgruppen_case_index_page.htm

http://www.remember.org/docss.html

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005130

I thought the terms "einsaztgruppen" and "einsatzkommando" held the same weight of infamy of the terms "Nazi" and "Holocaust".

I guess I was wrong.

[Balschoiw 0]

Yeah Pit you are definately wrong. Einsatzgruppe is a regular , neutral german word. It is not bound to military anyway. Police and Firefighters and even Hospitals have Einsatzgruppen. It only means there are special teams for special tasks. Nothing related to 3rd Reich here.

[PitViper 0]

found this caption on one of those pages:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afterwards. After being made to lie down, each person was shot in the neck at the base of the head. Notice adults shielding their children. During roundups, any Jew unable for any reason not to show up in the market place or designated assembly area was shot onsite. Any Jew found after a roundup action was immediately shot In the beginning, graves were not even dug, natural pits and depressions in the earth were used and the burial detail was left for the locals to handle. Most non-Jewish locals were anti-Semitic to the point that they helped the Germans. Anti-semitism had reached a boiling-point in Europe, and no where was it worse than in Germany, Poland, the Ukraine & Lithuania.<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir, I thought you said that anti-semitism was limited to just nazi officials in a few European countries and not in the general population of Europe?

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 12 May 2003,22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">found this caption on one of those pages:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afterwards. After being made to lie down, each person was shot in the neck at the base of the head. Notice adults shielding their children. During roundups, any Jew unable for any reason not to show up in the market place or designated assembly area was shot onsite. Any Jew found after a roundup action was immediately shot In the beginning, graves were not even dug, natural pits and depressions in the earth were used and the burial detail was left for the locals to handle. Most non-Jewish locals were anti-Semitic to the point that they helped the Germans. Anti-semitism had reached a boiling-point in Europe, and no where was it worse than in Germany, Poland, the Ukraine & Lithuania.<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir,  I thought you said that anti-semitism was limited to just nazi officials in a few European countries and not in the general population of Europe?<span id='postcolor'>

How would you react if protecting the jews would mean getting killed?

Would you be a jew lover? I don't think so... I bet most of those anti semetic ppl weren't anti semetic at all, they just didn't want to die...

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ 13 May 2003,15:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How would you react if protecting the jews would mean getting killed?

Would you be a jew lover?  I don't think so...  I bet most of those anti semetic ppl weren't anti semetic at all, they just didn't want to die...<span id='postcolor'>

what a load of...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 13 May 2003,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ 13 May 2003,15:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How would you react if protecting the jews would mean getting killed?

Would you be a jew lover?  I don't think so...  I bet most of those anti semetic ppl weren't anti semetic at all, they just didn't want to die...<span id='postcolor'>

what a load of...<span id='postcolor'>

Why is that?

Nobody in his right mind would put the lives of a minority above the lives of his family. You protect those of your blood first, others second.

[der bastler 0]

OMG, "Einsatzgruppe" = "work group"! (dict.leo.org)

btw: What's the abbreviation of the US-president's bodyguard unit?

[MrMilli 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 13 May 2003,20:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">found this caption on one of those pages:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afterwards. After being made to lie down, each person was shot in the neck at the base of the head. Notice adults shielding their children. During roundups, any Jew unable for any reason not to show up in the market place or designated assembly area was shot onsite. Any Jew found after a roundup action was immediately shot In the beginning, graves were not even dug, natural pits and depressions in the earth were used and the burial detail was left for the locals to handle. Most non-Jewish locals were anti-Semitic to the point that they helped the Germans. Anti-semitism had reached a boiling-point in Europe, and no where was it worse than in Germany, Poland, the Ukraine & Lithuania.<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir,  I thought you said that anti-semitism was limited to just nazi officials in a few European countries and not in the general population of Europe?<span id='postcolor'>

I've been trying to think of a resonable reply to this, but they all end up sounding more than a little insulting.

So, I'll simply say, I disagree strongly.