The north korea thread

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ April 25 2003,02:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It`s great! We`re already guessing about the next war. But why can`t the USA simply stay calm and peaceful???<span id='postcolor'>

Well then... who'd be F'ing the world over if we step down?

But seriously. NK admitted to having nuclear weapons which it shouldn't. What are you guys gonna say in protest of this war now? If we do indeed decide to go over there and not stay in the Middle East a while with Syria.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you ready to sacrifice LA<span id='postcolor'>

HELL YES! That place is a wasteland anyway, so I see no harm in destroying it.

Sorry Ralph.

I don't think North Korea would be crazy enough to actually try anything. I would imagine that this recent hardline stance is a desperate attempt to try to get the U.N. to give North Korea more food for it's starving people. But what do any of us really know? Were all just a bunch of armchair stratigists anyway.

Tyler

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Isn't the ABM system not supposed to be avaliable until 2004?

That means if North Korea launches a missile now and it managed to work, the ABM system isn't there to shoot it down. Or am I wrong and the USA's ABM system is already in service?

About appeasing North Korea, I don't mean give in to any demand he makes, but just small gestures like America could start giving North Korea aid again. Threatening him is likely to just make him more desperate.

[black__bird 0]

try to keep this one conventional if it comes to a test of arms between the USA and DPRK. Kim may have a few nukes and maybe the ability to hit us, but the question is what will happen if he does..... during the cold war the USA plans always stated if we are hit by chemical/biological/nuclear weapons then we will give a response with a full nuclear strike....kim can maybe hit a city and kill millions of people, but the second that missile hits set your stop watches for approx 34minutes, that would be about the time it would take for a rain of minutemen missiles to drop their MIRVs on Pyongyang. Kim(he is crazy yes, but he cant be horribly stupid) also knows that any international support he may have will go away if he launches a nuke, and keeping the world on his side is more important than killing us right now. If he does anything it will be threaten the use of nukes and probably invade ROK. If he does invade ROK, then i can say with pretty good certainty that the UN will go to war, they did it against Kim's daddy 53years ago. Also the last time DPRK had PRC to back them up, this time i dont think they will.

I honestly dont think HE will use nukes, what scares me is he might sell them to terrorist groups and let them use nuclear weapons against anyone they want(most likely USA, Europe, Israel, depending on who he sells them to).

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (black__bird @ April 25 2003,06:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">try to keep this one conventional if it comes to a test of arms between the USA and DPRK.  Kim may have a few nukes and maybe the ability to hit us, but the question is what will happen if he does..... during the cold war the USA plans always stated if we are hit by chemical/biological/nuclear weapons then we will give a response with a full nuclear strike....kim can maybe hit a city and kill millions of people, but the second that missile hits set your stop watches for approx 34minutes, that would be about the time it would take for a rain of minutemen missiles to drop their MIRVs on Pyongyang.  Kim(he is crazy yes, but he cant be horribly stupid) also knows that any international support he may have will go away if he launches a nuke, and keeping the world on his side is more important than killing us right now.  If he does anything it will be threaten the use of nukes and probably invade ROK.  If he does invade ROK, then i can say with pretty good certainty that the UN will go to war, they did it against Kim's daddy 53years ago.  Also the last time DPRK had PRC to back them up, this time i dont think they will.  

I honestly dont think HE will use nukes, what scares me is he might sell them to terrorist groups and let them use nuclear weapons against anyone they want(most likely USA, Europe, Israel, depending on who he sells them to).<span id='postcolor'>

He is already threatening to sell weapons grade plutonium to the highest bidder.

I don't think he should be openly threatened either. But at the same time, I think he needs to be made aware that the U.S. and the U.N. will roll over his ass if he decides to play footsie with us. I think we've done that, and the talks were the first positive sign from North Korea that I'd seen in a while, but now they've all but collapsed. Let's hope they get restarted.

[ZIKAN 0]

I dont think the US will handle it in the same way as Iraq and other rogue states. I think containment is the first priority on the agenda. Life in NK is pretty much bleak, they need the outside world more than they let on. The USA & Co will proabably just bleed them dry, NK will make concessions like they have previously done.

As a matter of interest on TV the other night on the news (UK), it was reported that NK had made hundreds of tunnels going into SK, in preparation to send thousands of troops in a huge offensive in the future. None had been discovered yet in SK, but the signs were there, and also NK defectors claimed to have been part of a group of soldiers tasked with digging the tunnels, that had been going on for years...

[Longinius 1]

"What are you guys gonna say in protest of this war now?"

That depends on wether the US will go against the UN again or not. A war might be necessary, but it should always have the support by the UN. Otherwise it is illegal, thus bad.

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ April 25 2003,05:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ April 25 2003,02:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It`s great! We`re already guessing about the next war. But why can`t the USA simply stay calm and peaceful???<span id='postcolor'>

Well then... who'd be F'ing the world over if we step down?    

But seriously.  NK admitted to having nuclear weapons which it shouldn't.  What are you guys gonna say in protest of this war now?  If we do indeed decide to go over there and not stay in the Middle East a while with Syria.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, NK is violating laws, but Pakistan and India do also have nukes.

As long as the TBA is going the way of diplomacy everything is fine, because I don`t believe NK would start a war on it`s own. Why should they? They`d be kicked by the rest of the world, if they did something nasty, not only by the USA. Furthermore I haven`t heard yet from NK terrorist groups killing people everywhere. I really believe NK can be dealt with peacefully.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 25 2003,04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No actually, the EKV (Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle) developed by Raytheon has been a major success.  It failed in early trials due to really dumb mistakes that had nothing to do with the interceptor itself.  One time some dumbass tech forgot to load the coolant chemical into the thermal sensor and so for one of the critical tests, the EKV was basically blind.  Two other tests failed due to problems with the rocket booster developed by I believe Rockwell.  Subsequent tests have been a huge success with several critical intercepts, the EKV successfully picked out the MIRV's among dozens of decoys and destroyed them out in space.  <span id='postcolor'>

Actually, according to this report I have here (nov. 2002) there have been 4 successful trials and 22 failures since the testing begun in 1997 (this includes both problems with the EKV, PLV etc). The last successful test was on 15/3/2002 and the last failure was on 18/8/2002.

Just look how poorly the Patriot/AC3 missiles work (also Raytheon) and it's task is far more simple. So the EKV technology is far from usable. It has shown that under optimal conditions that it can work but it's far from ready to be put in operation.

I'm pretty sure that it will end up like the Reagan's Star Wars program.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Boeing is working on a 747 with a chemical laser in the nose that will intercept ICBM's during their first or second boost stages, that shows tremendous promise.

<span id='postcolor'>

Leftovers from the 80's. All those things showed 'tremendous promise' but in the end never were put into action, largely due to technical malfunctions and too high costs.

I salute your optimism Schoeler, but would be willing to bet money on that the system won't get operational. It is way to expensive to implement, the critical reliability is not at all good and changes of the system will be immensly expensive while countermeasures are easy to develop (Yepp, both China and Russia have already developed countermeasures).

It's a big very juicy target for defense cutdowns. Right now it is in an experimental stage and if all goes as planned it will become operational between 2020-2025. What is the probability that such an expensive program would survive for so long?

[Schoeler 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 25 2003,103)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 25 2003,04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No actually, the EKV (Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle) developed by Raytheon has been a major success.  It failed in early trials due to really dumb mistakes that had nothing to do with the interceptor itself.  One time some dumbass tech forgot to load the coolant chemical into the thermal sensor and so for one of the critical tests, the EKV was basically blind.  Two other tests failed due to problems with the rocket booster developed by I believe Rockwell.  Subsequent tests have been a huge success with several critical intercepts, the EKV successfully picked out the MIRV's among dozens of decoys and destroyed them out in space.  <span id='postcolor'>

Actually, according to this report I have here (nov. 2002) there have been 4 successful trials and 22 failures since the testing begun in 1997 (this includes both problems with the EKV, PLV etc). The last successful test was on 15/3/2002 and the last failure was on 18/8/2002.

Just look how poorly the Patriot/AC3 missiles work (also Raytheon) and it's task is far more simple. So the EKV technology is far from usable. It has shown that under optimal conditions that it can work but it's far from ready to be put in operation.

I'm pretty sure that it will  end  up like the Reagan's Star Wars program.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Boeing is working on a 747 with a chemical laser in the nose that will intercept ICBM's during their first or second boost stages, that shows tremendous promise.

<span id='postcolor'>

Leftovers from the 80's. All those things showed 'tremendous promise' but in the end never were put into action, largely due to technical malfunctions and too high costs.

I salute your optimism Schoeler, but would be willing to bet money on that the system won't get operational. It is way to expensive to implement, the critical reliability is not at all good and changes of the system will  be immensly expensive while countermeasures are easy to develop (Yepp, both China and Russia have already developed countermeasures).

It's a big very juicy target for defense cutdowns. Right now it is in an experimental stage and if all goes as planned it will become operational between 2020-2025. What is the probability that such an expensive program would survive for so long?<span id='postcolor'>

Patriot is shite, 70's technology that they are trying to upgrade.  There is a Pac 4 version coming out that is supposed to be better.  EKV is cutting edge, and is almost ready for deployment.  My brother worked on it before he passed away.  Most of the failures were supposedly due to Rockwell's crappy rocket boosters, and cooling problems with the thermal imagers.  A couple of times they had fuel freezing problems with the fuel used to vector the impact device, but when all systems have been go, its worked almost every time, and has been getting better.  There's a lot of politics surrounding this project, but what military procurement project using brand spanking new technology hasn't started in failure?  I mean, just look at the V-22 for God's sake.  Its been years, and that thing is still not ready, and its only a low-speed aircraft!

Incidently, theres a lot of pressure on the EKV team at Raytheon right now.  So much so that the stress is causing employees on the project to quit or transfer over to the Tomahawk division.  The running joke there is that EKV stands for Employee Kill Vehicle.

EKV Test Chronology

[PitViper 0]

Having been stationed on the DMZ in Korea, I can tell you that the U.S would not want to go to war on that continent again.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, NK is violating laws, but Pakistan and India do also have nukes. <span id='postcolor'>

Pakistan and India aren't threatening to nuke other countries.

[black__bird 0]

The only people Pakistan and India are threatening to nuke is each other.

[Schoeler 0]

Neither Pakistan nor India have a drug addicted, pedophile, megalomaniac as their leader also.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 25 2003,20:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, NK is violating laws, but Pakistan and India do also have nukes. <span id='postcolor'>

Pakistan and India aren't threatening to nuke other countries.<span id='postcolor'>

Only each other

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 25 2003,21:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 25 2003,20:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, NK is violating laws, but Pakistan and India do also have nukes. <span id='postcolor'>

Pakistan and India aren't threatening to nuke other countries.<span id='postcolor'>

Only each other  <span id='postcolor'>

Well ya figure if they do blow eachother up. Theres mountains to the north and and seas to the south. Most of the fallout should be contained

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 25 2003,21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Neither Pakistan nor India have a drug addicted, pedophile, megalomaniac as their leader also.<span id='postcolor'>

Bush is also ... let`s say strange and took (takes?) drugs and alcohol and did a lot of dirty business.

I see no reason to start a war with NK. They have only a big mouth, because they are in a pretty bad situation.

The current USA under the TBA and with it`s black lists and all the other stuff is dangerous. Even the discussion about a possible next target for the USA is dangerous, because it contains already that another war wouldn`t be a problem for the USA. I`d spend the money that`s blown out of the window for war for schools and educational purposes.

But the USA seems to need it`s wars and heros.

[LandShark-AL 0]

If the guy can hit hollywood with a nuke he can't be all bad

NK is not going to war its just blackmail and we will give them

something to get them back in line.We know what go's on

in NK U.S. and SK Spec ops go in and out of NK like its a walmart.

[MrMilli 0]

3 wars in one term?

Could someone better informed tell me if this would be some kind of record?

[LandShark-AL 0]

No Bill had us doing things in 6 countrys trying to take the heat off of him for getting a shot of ass in the whitehouse.

[Schoeler 0]

Imagine how things would be if Hillary gets elected President. All that pent up frustration and womanly vindictiveness!

[Jinef 2]

No way m8, things got real ugly when we tried that over here. Women in power is a definite no no! (uhh don't hit me)

But look at history.

MT actually proposed using nuclear weapons in the Falklands! What a bitch, plus the economy and all the unemployment. What an absaloute bitch, plus she took pride in and enjoyed it when the SAS went into the Iranian embassy in 1980, it's bascially a sign you've failed when the military goes in.

Hopefully she was an exception.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 27 April 2003,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MT actually proposed using nuclear weapons in the Falklands!<span id='postcolor'>

what time of the month was it?

[Leveler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ 27 April 2003,10:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 27 April 2003,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MT actually proposed using nuclear weapons in the Falklands!<span id='postcolor'>

what time of the month was it?<span id='postcolor'>

Nah... she was too old for that...

[Necromancer- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ 25 April 2003,08:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think the US will handle it in the same way as Iraq and other rogue states. I think containment is the first priority on the agenda. Life in NK is pretty much bleak, they need the outside world more than they let on. The USA & Co will proabably just bleed them dry,  NK will make concessions like they have previously done.

As a matter of interest on TV the other night on the news (UK), it was reported that NK had made hundreds of tunnels going into SK, in preparation to send thousands of troops in a huge offensive in the future. None had been discovered yet in SK, but the signs were there, and also NK defectors claimed to have been part of a group of soldiers tasked with digging the tunnels, that had been going on for years...<span id='postcolor'>

One seismic shock and all those tunnels are gone.

Better start digging them again.