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Oligo

Mid east answer to america's army?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 08 2003,06:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How do you support terrorism when you fill up your gas tank?

Who get's the money when you get gas?  The gas people.

Hizbollah makes this game, Hizbollah is a terrorist organization.

When you buy this game from Hizbollah, you are giving money to a terrorist organization.  You are buying a game from a terrorist organization.<span id='postcolor'>

*takes a deep breath*

Okay, I'm going to explain this once, and that's it.

The gas at the fill station didn't magically appear there, nor is it produced in your hometown (although some is produced in mine). It is one of numerous byproducts of the refinement of crude petroleum, aka oil. Most of the oil you use is refined in the US, but about 65% of it is extracted elsewhere, and imported here. The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, a cartel that controls world oil supply and pricing, almost exclusively controls that 65% slice of our energy requirements (we consume about 20 million barrels of oil a day, so OPEC supplies us with about 11 billion per day). In OPEC, the major oil producers include, but are not limited to: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar, and Iraq (although Iraq has operated under severe sanctions over the past 12 years). Almost all of these countries, either in the past or currently, have indirectly or directly supported terrorism through oil money or money made through the oil business (derrick/pipeline construction & maintenance). Osama Bin Laden is a wealthy Saudi who used his family's sizable fortune (made from contracts with US oil interests) to finance Al Qaeda, which has been in the news lately- maybe you've heard of it. And Bin Laden is by no means the only one. The Saudi government awards sizable monetary compensation to the families of suicide bombers in Israel, as do other oil-rich Muslim countries; a clear incentive for would-be martyrs, considering the destitute situation of most Palestinians. Not only that, but the Saudi government uses its money to actively promote the Wahhabi brand of radical Islam, which can be directly linked to the goals and methods of nearly every militant Islamic group in existence. And the amount of gas your family puts into your car week after week will benefit terrorist and quasi-terrorist groups exponentially more than the one-time purchase of a stupid video game.

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Osama Bin Laden's brother in law is an oil magnate and heavyweight contributer to Al-Queada and various other terrorists groups. He does a lot of business with the USA. He was rumoured to have been at a social gathering with Bush Snr while, or soon before, the 911 attacks. Small world.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ April 08 2003,03:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes indeed. Soldier of Fortune was even a step beyond that. If you killed civilians in the NYC subway you failed the game while killing Arab and African civilians was ok. <span id='postcolor'>

Quite, many UK magazines picked up on that and the developers just shrugged!

As for this game, I wouldn't mind sampling it. A computer game from a terroist organisation is going to arouse curiosity. Shame they didn't make it compatible with America's Army!<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, but that's just like in real life. If a covert ops team, or Intelligence Operative killed terrorists in NYC, the government could say it was the police.

If you killed a civilian in a NYC subway, the news would jump all over it, and it's likely the truth would come out and reveal that it wasn't a police officer doing the rescue.

If however, the same covert ops unit went to Africa or the Middle east and shot a civilian, who is going to start investigating? Certainly not the western world, and it's unlikely any of those African or Middle Eastern governments would investigate for any reason other than to see if you posed a threat to them.

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basically these guys got pissed of all the US games where u the hero go around slaughtering arabs and other groups like in delta force, now these guys went and made a game where its the other way around whats wrong with that, now that it puts the good guys on the side you hate it makes you feel bad dosnt it, and you call them terrorists and otehr such things.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HellToupee @ April 10 2003,07:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and you call them terrorists and otehr such things.<span id='postcolor'>

Jerusalem Post calls it "hate indoctrination". What I'd like to know is what should we call the articles in Jerusalem Post which describe arab hate indoctrination. Could those articles also be (gasp) hate indoctrination, since their basic message is: "Those evil arabs are out to get us".

In the little conflict Israel vs. the rest of Mid East, if you ask me, both sides are using all the same tactics and blaming each other for using them.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes indeed. Soldier of Fortune was even a step beyond that. If you killed civilians in the NYC subway you failed the game while killing Arab and African civilians was ok.

<span id='postcolor'>

I haven't played the game, but I'm guessing that it was some kind of bug. Since most of the terrorists/revolutionaries in the game would probably be muslims or blacks, they might have used the same models for the Arab terrorists as they did the Arab civies but put different skins on them. Just a guess.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Saudi government awards sizable monetary compensation to the families of suicide bombers in Israel<span id='postcolor'>

Didn't Saddam give about $25,000 each to the families of 'martyrs' that blew themselves up? I never knew the Saudis were into that as well, at least not officially.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 10 2003,09:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Those evil arabs are out to get us".

In the little conflict Israel vs. the rest of Mid East, if you ask me, both sides are using all the same tactics and blaming each other for using them.<span id='postcolor'>

It's obvious that you have no idea what's going on here.

Seen any Israelis dancing in the streets when Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists get killed.

Another case of ignorance is bliss.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 10 2003,10:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Saudi government awards sizable monetary compensation to the families of suicide bombers in Israel<span id='postcolor'>

Didn't Saddam give about $25,000 each to the families of 'martyrs' that blew themselves up? I never knew the Saudis were into that as well, at least not officially.<span id='postcolor'>

Officially.

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Do they have a demo of this game? I'd like to try it.

I'm the guy that usually ends up playing the Axis side in Day of Defeat or Battlefield. smile.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 10 2003,10:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's obvious that you have no idea what's going on here.

Seen any Israelis dancing in the streets when Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists get killed.

Another case of ignorance is bliss.<span id='postcolor'>

So what you're saying is that the whole West Bank goes out into the streets to celebrate each suicide bombing and not just the ultra-orthodox militant nuts? You might be right, since in the current situation of the pal-israeli conflict, the palestinians are the ones who are more up shit creek, because they live in crappy houses, unemployed, herded around by IDF (and not comfortably going to work and/or playing OFP, periodically risking it to be killed in the suicide bombings). That's why they are more prone to celebrating whatever they see as possibly leading to improvement (the suicide bombings).

And I'd very much like to be a fly on the wall to eavesdrop on the ultra-orthodox militant nut colonist jews, when they discuss the latest killing of Hamas or Islamic Jihad "terrorists". I'm quite sure that some celebrating flies around.

Anyway, you always say that "you have no idea what's going on here". It might be helpful if you explained even once how you actually perceive the current pal-isr situation. The pals are evil, since they celebrate suicide bombings? Their leaders are evil, since they teach children to hate israelis? What?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 10 2003,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm the guy that usually ends up playing the Axis side in Day of Defeat or Battlefield.  smile.gif<span id='postcolor'>

I always play the axis side in any game, if possible. Axis side is more interesting to play and of course, Finland was an ally of the axis, so it is the natural choice for me anyway.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 10 2003,12:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what you're saying is that the whole West Bank goes out into the streets to celebrate each suicide bombing and not just the ultra-orthodox militant nuts?<span id='postcolor'>

I know not of a single case where any "ultra orthodex militant nuts" went out dancing in the street when terrorists are killed.

Did you find one or two of them doing this over and over and over? Well, good for you! I can guarantee you that you didn't find nor thousands nor hundreds - not even ten.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You might be right, since in the current situation of the pal-israeli conflict, the palestinians are the ones who are more up shit creek, because they live in crappy houses,<span id='postcolor'>

Since 1948, when the Arabs penned them into refugee camps.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">unemployed,<span id='postcolor'>

They were in much better financial condition up to the first Intifida and certainly so now. It was their choice.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">herded around by IDF<span id='postcolor'>

Once again, brought upon themselves by their own actions.

Tsk, tsk.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(and not comfortably going to work and/or playing OFP, periodically risking it to be killed in the suicide bombings).<span id='postcolor'>

When you go through that risk over and over, then come back and trivialize it. Until then, you're just a big talker.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's why they are more prone to celebrating whatever they see as possibly leading to improvement (the suicide bombings).<span id='postcolor'>

But things have gotten worse for them.

You don't realize what they're really celebrating.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And I'd very much like to be a fly on the wall to eavesdrop on the ultra-orthodox militant nut colonist jews,<span id='postcolor'>

So far, you're proving yourself to be a nut, repeating such far fetched terms and associating so many people with it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">when they discuss the latest killing of Hamas or Islamic Jihad "terrorists". I'm quite sure that some celebrating flies around.<span id='postcolor'>

You're not sure of anything. You're talking off the bottom of your lip.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway, you always say that "you have no idea what's going on here". It might be helpful if you explained even once how you actually perceive the current pal-isr situation.<span id='postcolor'>

I have done so several times.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The pals are evil, since they celebrate suicide bombings? Their leaders are evil, since they teach children to hate israelis? What?<span id='postcolor'>

Another naive European baffoon. How's that for name calling and stereotyping?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know not of a single case where any "ultra orthodex militant nuts" went out dancing in the street when terrorists are killed.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, Israelis don't dance in the streets. It's because they don't need to, because their life is 100-fold better than the life of the pals in the ghettos. That's why they hate you and celebrate suicide bombings. They don't see the past and how it is their own fault. They only see their current situation.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When you go through that risk over and over, then come back and trivialize it. Until then, you're just a big talker.

<span id='postcolor'>

Relatively your family is much better off than the average palestinian family and you are much safer too. Trivialize THEIR plight!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So far, you're proving yourself to be a nut, repeating such far fetched terms and associating so many people with it.

You're not sure of anything. You're talking off the bottom of your lip.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sure about one thing: When I saw a documentary where they interviewed palestinian children and orthodox jew children, they all said: "God has given us this land, those others try to take it from us." They even had songs about it! I think it shows a tad bit of inflexibility in both sides, if both sides are saying exactly the same. Seems to me that both sides have been "hate indoctrinated".

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Another naive European baffoon. How's that for name calling and stereotyping?<span id='postcolor'>

Frankly, it's sad that is all you can say. I hope that some day your cultural evolution will progress enough so that you don't have to resort to rudimentary solutions to problems anymore (Booya, me want to club something).

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 10 2003,12:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 10 2003,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm the guy that usually ends up playing the Axis side in Day of Defeat or Battlefield.  smile.gif<span id='postcolor'>

I always play the axis side in any game, if possible. Axis side is more interesting to play and of course, Finland was an ally of the axis, so it is the natural choice for me anyway.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, in Battlefield, the Axis/Ally difference is purely cosmetic, and in Day of Defeat, it depends on the map.

I do NOT want to play as an Axis on Anzio, and I don't usually want to play as an Ally on Overlord.

I wish they'd hurry up and finish the WWII OFP mods. Battlefield was a GREAT idea, but waaaaaaay too arcadey.

Anyway, my point I guess was this game appeals to me somewhat, because, unlike in real life, in video games I don't mind being the bad guy. smile.gif

(BTW, as a Canadian, I get a surreal feeling when playing OVerlord, when me and my suad get gunned down pratically as soon as we spawn, over and over. smile.gif )

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 10 2003,13:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Relatively your family is much better off than the average palestinian family and you are much safer too. Trivialize THEIR plight!<span id='postcolor'>

How ridiculous. This is like having pity on Germany in 1945, after they started a war.

It could all stop. It's up to them. Always has been, too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sure about one thing: When I saw a documentary where they interviewed palestinian children and orthodox jew children, they all said: "God has given us this land, those others try to take it from us."<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with that quote.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They even had songs about it! I think it shows a tad bit of inflexibility in both sides, if both sides are saying exactly the same. Seems to me that both sides have been "hate indoctrinated".<span id='postcolor'>

You obviously don't know what hate indoctrination is. Here, have some videos and then show me comparible stuff from Israeli TV and popular religious and political leaders.

And when you're finished with that, why don't you read a few studies about PA children's textbooks (funded by the EU)teachings on Israelis and Jews versus the Israeli equivalents.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How ridiculous. This is like having pity on Germany in 1945, after they started a war.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, actually I do feel pity for the average german, who was ordered to fight and die. Most germans didn't have any say to the direction which their country took, they just obeyed (because the alternative was death).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with that quote.<span id='postcolor'>

stupid.gif

Well, slap me around and call me a bitch, that explains a lot. I assume you only agree with the quote, when israelis say it instead of palestinians, of course.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You obviously don't know what hate indoctrination is.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, I might not, but I know that teaching children truths like "God gave us this land" is stupidity indoctrination.

I think we should stop this discussion now, since there is nothing positive to be accomplished here. Feel free to throw in the last word, I'm going to get drunk now and brood the sorry state of the world.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 10 2003,14:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That explains a lot.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean I'm not entitled to believe the Bible, in which G-d promises my people that this land will be ours for eternity?

You mean I'm forced to believe in what you believe is the truth?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I assume you only agree with the quote, when israelis say it instead of palestinians, of course.<span id='postcolor'>

Of course.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, I might not, but I know that teaching children truths like "God gave us this land" is stupidity indoctrination.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, like the song says, I must be "losing my religion".

BTW, heard about any Jewish lessons that say the Arabs can't live here? Heard about any Jewish teachings that say we must drive the Arabs into the sea? Heard any Jewish teachings that it is a blessing to kill as many Arabs as possible?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mean I'm not entitled to believe the Bible, in which G-d promises my people that this land will be ours for eternity? You mean I'm forced to believe in what you believe is the truth?<span id='postcolor'>

Believing in the Bible or Qu'ran or whatever is fine (if you're so inclined), except when religion tries to interfere with secular matters like land ownership. And you're not forced to believe in what you call "my truth": Just take a look at the world and see how much shit religion messing with secular matters has caused.

Hell, even in our finnish "utopia" those ultra-conservative christians are always trying to interfere with the lives of other people.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, heard about any Jewish lessons that say the Arabs can't live here? Heard about any Jewish teachings that say we must drive the Arabs into the sea? Heard any Jewish teachings that it is a blessing to kill as many Arabs as possible?<span id='postcolor'>

"God gave US this land" says it all, when the people chanting it are bulldozing houses to put up colonies.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 10 2003,14:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mean I'm not entitled to believe the Bible, in which G-d promises my people that this land will be ours for eternity? You mean I'm forced to believe in what you believe is the truth?<span id='postcolor'>

Believing in the Bible or Qu'ran or whatever is fine (if you're so inclined), except when religion tries to interfere with secular matters like land ownership.<span id='postcolor'>

But it's a religious matter as well. You view things very one-sidedly.

Once again, from a Jewish Orthodox point of view, there is no problem with the Arabs living where they are except for the fact that it has and continues to endanger our lives. And that's no less a secular point, BTW.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"God gave US this land" says it all, when the people chanting it are bulldozing houses to put up colonies.<span id='postcolor'>

More lies. Even more interesting is that the majority of Israelis are not religious in practice. In fact, we have tons of the most ultra-secularist-agnostic-rabid loonies (just paraphrasing your terminology for some of us).

Please show me where houses were bulldozed to "put up colonies" (huw dumb!wink.gif, other than an exceptional case where houses were built without a permit on land owned by someone else.

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All this reminds me of what happened when I was in high school and we had a visit by a couple of Israeli exchange students. They told some vanilla stuff about the history of Israel, everyday life there etc. Then there was time for Q&A, following with the usual pre-arranged inane questions and equally boring answers. I got bored, and asked them about the legality of the Israeli settlements on the West Bank (or perhaps treatment of Palestinians, I don't remember exactly, it was years ago. It was a mildly "charged" question, I can tell you that much). Anyway, when that Israeli girl heard the question, she turned red and for awhile looked like she's going to leap across the room and rip out my larynx. She did control herself (barely), though and instead launched into a 15-minute tirade heaping blame on the Palestinians, explaining the Isreali God-given right, blah, blah, blah... Now from my point of view, she looked very much properly indoctrinated. Since that day I realised that both sides in Isreali-Palestinian conflict are fanatics. And IMO, fanaticism is always a bad thing. Now you probably need fanaticism to survive there, but it sure as hell makes it impossible for any side to claim the "moral high ground" or "being in the right"... Did I have a point? Oh, yeah, Isrealis are just as indoctrinated as Palestinians, that was it.

P.S. In Russian there's a saying: "Don't touch the shit, and it won't stink". Now I ask myself, why did I just touch the shit? confused.gif

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<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Mid East thread, please!</span> crazy.gifcrazy.gif

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I think there's a misunderstanding here. The 6 Day War, in which Israel captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza, did not take place because Israel said that "the land was promised to us".

Israel offered numerous times to negotiate a settlement on these areas but was flatly refused by all surounding Arab governments.

Fact of the matter is that Israel entered the Oslo accords and relinquished control of these "promised lands".

Sorry to hear that the girl who visited you didn't know what to answer. It's obvious, however, that there's plenty of ignorance on the other side, too.

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"It could all stop. It's up to them. Always has been, too."

So if they'd stop all illegal settlements would go away, they'd get the same rights as jewish citizens and there would eventually be few ghettos because the state would help the citizens?

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Continue this discussion in the real Mid East thread.

Closing smile.gif

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