The Dogs of War

[bn880 5]

Reports that some limited cavalry has entered Baghdad, being fired upon by AAA.

[Schoeler 0]

The entire 2nd Brigade of the 3rd ID is now inside central Baghdad on an RIF. Initial reports are stating that rpg rounds are raining down and bouncing off their armor.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 05 2003,06:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, the rules kida go to shit when you have thousands of screaming maniacal people charging towards your position.  Thats how human wave attacks succeed.  They come out of nowhere and very suddenly you are enveloped in suicidal charging killers.  They lose a lot of men, but the tradeoff if they can overrun the position before air and arty support is called in, is a big bodycount for their enemy as well.<span id='postcolor'>

"Wave attacks" by the military aren't going to accomplish much.  If civvies are herded along (willingly or not), things could get messy.

Semper Fi

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ April 05 2003,07:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 05 2003,06:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, the rules kida go to shit when you have thousands of screaming maniacal people charging towards your position.  Thats how human wave attacks succeed.  They come out of nowhere and very suddenly you are enveloped in suicidal charging killers.  They lose a lot of men, but the tradeoff if they can overrun the position before air and arty support is called in, is a big bodycount for their enemy as well.<span id='postcolor'>

"Wave attacks" by the military aren't going to accomplish much.  If civvies are herded along (willingly or not), things could get messy.

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

Well we all know how reluctant the Iraqis have been to use civilians to gain the advantage in this conflict

[killagee 0]

Interesting Analysis from http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/iraqwar_ru_020.htm

Reviewing ground operations [in Iraq] analysts conclude that the desert terrain and the resulting inability of the Iraqis to fight outside of towns and villages provide the coalition with its main strategic advantage. Complete air dominance allows [the coalition troops] locating and engaging Iraqi positions and armor at maximum distance using precision-guided munitions not available to the Iraqis, while remaining outside of the range of the Iraqi weapons. Considering the course of this war and the tactics used by the coalition, [Russian military] analysts find this tactics to be far removed from the realities of modern warfare and designed exclusively against a technologically much weaker opponent. Such tactics is unimaginable on the European theater of combat with its woodlands and cross-country terrain. Foreseeing the possibility of a future military standoff between the US and North Korea the analysts are certain that the US cannot hope for a military victory on the Korean Peninsula without the use of nuclear weapons.

(source: iraqwar.ru, 04-03-03, translated by Venik)

[crewcutkid 0]

That article is interesting. I guess the author doesn't know that U.S. officers are trained in several forms of warfare, and frankly, we HAVE fought in Korea before....

Oh, well

-A disgruntled Americ, i mean, Crew.

[ale2999 0]

lol u guys with ur theories. None of that is gonna happen, if saddam send thousand of ppl at once against the us encampment then the world will see his real face. Anyways I think that every citizen has the right to defend their country in the way the best see fit, but as Schoeler (i think) said this would just bring more harm in the way of the iraqi civilians, sincerely if I was the US, I would tell all iraqis to stay at a safe distance of 300 m from checkpoint else to be shot at once, why should they the Us army take chances with ppl that are suicidal?

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (killagee @ April 04 2003,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Interesting Analysis from http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/iraqwar_ru_020.htm

Reviewing ground operations [in Iraq] analysts conclude that the desert terrain and the resulting inability of the Iraqis to fight outside of towns and villages provide the coalition with its main strategic advantage. Complete air dominance allows [the coalition troops] locating and engaging Iraqi positions and armor at maximum distance using precision-guided munitions not available to the Iraqis, while remaining outside of the range of the Iraqi weapons. Considering the course of this war and the tactics used by the coalition, [Russian military] analysts find this tactics to be far removed from the realities of modern warfare and designed exclusively against a technologically much weaker opponent. Such tactics is unimaginable on the European theater of combat with its woodlands and cross-country terrain. Foreseeing the possibility of a future military standoff between the US and North Korea the analysts are certain that the US cannot hope for a military victory on the Korean Peninsula without the use of nuclear weapons.

(source: iraqwar.ru, 04-03-03, translated by Venik)

<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not sure where the jump in logic comes from that the tactics that are being used in Iraq are the same that would be used if there was a war in North Korea. Sounds like wishful thinking on somones part...

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ale2999 @ April 05 2003,13:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sincerely if I was the US, I would tell all iraqis to stay at a safe distance of 300 m from checkpoint else to be shot at once, why should they the Us army take chances with ppl that are suicidal?<span id='postcolor'>

Well the Iraqis have to use their roads to get from place to place. And the US has to check these roads to make sure the iraqi army isn't going anywhere.

plus: we're in baghdad!

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ April 05 2003,08:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not sure where the jump in logic comes from that the tactics that are being used in Iraq are the same that would be used if there was a war in North Korea.  Sounds like wishful thinking on somones part... <span id='postcolor'>

I think the whole point was that the tactics used in Iraq wouldn't work in NK. It's a worthwhile observation given the fact that it's part of Bush's "axis of evil" and we all know they have WMD's.the other interesting observation made - that there wouldn't be any likely way to keep it from going nuclear -  is  in my opinion the main reason they went after Iraq and not North Korea. Hell, they're bragging about the fact they have nukes.

*edit* edited for stupid mistakes I'm making at 2 am. Goodnight.

[FSPilot 0]

Inert bombs

Thats pretty ingenious if you ask me. Using precision to our advantage when the Iraqis try to put their assets close to civilians.

[Longinius 1]

"I disagree on how they do it.Screaming for help,and troops coming to your aid,then blowing yourself up.That's kinda wrong.If they seen troops and sped off to them to blow them and yourself ,ok, i can understand that.I can't stand people asking for help and then killed themself and people trying to help them.Their taking the goodwill of the soldiers and costing them their lifes."

I just have one thing to say: So? These guys are fighting for their homeland and for its existance. I dont think they care much about the soldiers goodwill. Trickery and deciept is their only way of getting close enough to do damage. If that is all they got, they would use it. So would anyone in the same situation.

If you can chose between dieing and taking some enemies with you, or just dieing, I think I'd go with option 1.

[PFC_Mike 2]

Many people keep posting about how suicide attacks are the only option. Here's my question: Why die for someone who caused all your problems? If space aliens attacked America to remove W. and create a new nation actually based on the Constitution, promised to end the WAr on Drugs, and cut gov't spending, I might support them. CAn you blame the Iraqis for supporting people who have come to feed and assist them?

Anyway, inert bombs are awesome. The US has some too. I saw a set of pictures in JDW of one hitting a *moving* (damn! M60. I wouldn't want to be in a turret of a tank that got hit by them. Assuming they get dropped at 15,000 ft and gravity = 9.8 meters per second...ouch.

[PFC_Mike 2]

RG Medina division HQ captured. I think that as a conventional fighting force, Saddam is finished. Valuable lesson for NK, although I doubt the US troops have any personal desire to help NK citizens like they do for Iraqis.

BTW, did you know Kim Il Jong has a blog? It's true.

[Balschoiw 0]

need a break ?

The truth

[tracy_t 0]

LOL! Balschoiw, that's the truth alright.

I can't wait to see "democracy" taking root in Iraq.

I mean, look at the success in Afghanistan!!!

Surely it's only coincidence that the "democratic" president of Afghanistan (Mohammed Karzai) is an ex-oilman? Right?

And I suppose the new puppet Government of Iraq will be selling oil "for the people"! My arse!!

[Longinius 1]

"Many people keep posting about how suicide attacks are the only option. Here's my question: Why die for someone who caused all your problems? If space aliens attacked America to remove W. and create a new nation actually based on the Constitution, promised to end the WAr on Drugs, and cut gov't spending, I might support them. CAn you blame the Iraqis for supporting people who have come to feed and assist them?"

Want some reasons?

1. You are being invaded by a foreign power whose goal it is to force you to change your way of life. (western society vs current eastern society)

2. Fear

3. Better the devil you know (Saddam vs Bush)

4. Loyalty (Family, friends, nation, legacy, religion, Saddam)

5. Hate (The great devil)

6. Propaganda ("We are right, our cause is just!!"

7. Blackmail (do it or your family will suffer)

[Guest]

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Coalition Troops Near Center of Baghdad</span>

Edit: Before the celebrations starts according to BBC it's actually not the center of Baghdad but some of the southern suburbs. BBC also quotes US commanders that a 'significant number' of US troops have been killed and injured. They showed pictures of burning Abrams tanks - unclear if those were new or archive pictures.

The Iraqis are throwing a military parade in the city center to rally support.

Edit2: CentCom has changed it statement to that US troops have enetered the "heart of Baghdad" as opposed to "center of Baghdad".

According to the BBC they are going in on Highway 9 from south west and that they havn't reached the urban areas yet. BBC is reporting heavy resistance from the Iraqis.

Iraqis claim that they have re-taken the airport, but there is no confirmation of that.

Edit3: BBC reporters in Baghdad say that the international reporters were on a tour of Baghdad and of its outskirts and that there is no trace of US troops in the city.

[Blaegis 0]

According to the live report from BBCWorld correspondent (Rageh Omaar) in central Baghdad, he has seen no sign of American presence in the city, not only from his broadcasting "spot", but also having driven around the city this morning. The information coming from Iraqis vis-a-vis Americans is widely divergent: Iraqi's claims of re-taking the airport vs American claims of 1000 Iraqi KIA this morning as their armor advances into central Baghdad. Go figure.

[Guest]

Latest Robert Fisk report

Saying that the "missing" Republican Guard divisions are inside Baghdad.

[cam0flage 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 05 2003,15:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Latest Robert Fisk report

Saying that the "missing" Republican Guard divisions are inside Baghdad.<span id='postcolor'>

Yesterday the cafés were packed with soldiers from the Republican Guard divisions defending Baghdad, men who could drive only 15 minutes back from the front to eat between battles, their anti- aircraft guns and military vehicles parked outside.

How on earth they allow soldiers to leave their posts while the enemy is outside their capital?

Interesting report, anyway.

[Antichrist 0]

Well reporter from Russian news channel just reported that Iraqis kicked US forces from the airport. Heaps of coaliton soldiers died! And he is also saying that he didn't see any coalition troops anywhere in Baghdad!

[Potatoman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ April 05 2003,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well reporter from Russian news channel just reported that Iraqis kicked US forces from the airport. Heaps of coaliton soldiers died! And he is also saying that he didn't see any coalition troops anywhere in Baghdad!<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm. I guess that sky news reporter at the airport must have been a bit confused then.

Anyway footage on sky news of m1's driving along main roads in baghdad shooting the shit out of pickups and trucks is pretty convincing. One M1 definitely lost and 1 tank commander was killed.

Edit: US forces apparently drove through some of the suburbs destroying the defences and then pulled back which is why no reporters in the city can see them. It looks like a devastatingly effective attack but really nowhere near the centre of baghdad.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ April 05 2003,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well reporter from Russian news channel just reported that Iraqis kicked US forces from the airport. Heaps of coaliton soldiers died! And he is also saying that he didn't see any coalition troops anywhere in Baghdad!<span id='postcolor'>

The Russian news agancies should know better then to take Iraq's propaganda at face value.

The conclusions that can be made so far is:

1) American forces are in control of the airport.

2) The "push into Baghdad" was a scratch on the surface in one of the southern suburbs of Baghdad. 20 Abrams tanks and 10 Bradleys were part of this push forward. Between 2-5 US armoured vehicles were destroyed, depending on the sources. Unclear if they were all tanks or if they were IFVs.

[Potatoman 0]

There seemed to be some m113s involved. I don't think i'd like to be there in one of those.