The Dogs of War

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC_Mike @ April 07 2003,09:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saddam has entered the ranks of the WTF club: "Well and Truly Fucked"

He'll be in good company with Hitler.

So much for a quagmire.<span id='postcolor'>

Stuff that shit in the political thread.

[theavonlady 2]

News from Debka:

"First Report from DEBKAfile's military sources: Allied forces have found Scud missile launching site in western Iraq. Types of warhead are under investigation to find out whether conventional payloads or WMD. Hunt is on for more Scud sites."

Let's see if this turns out to be correct.

[theavonlady 2]

Interesting first hand account of fighting in Baghdad:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....eld_467

My favorite line:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I'm tired of being an RPG magnet."<span id='postcolor'>

I know the feeling.

[Othin 0]

FOXNews is reporting that two foreign news companies (one of which is Kuwati) are reporting of uprisings in Baghdad. They also say that the residents are killing Fedayeen.

We'll see if this is RUMINT like the "massive" uprisings in Basra earlier in the war, or truth.

[theavonlady 2]

Step right up!

Basra Palace Tour. Just click on the article's video link.

Keep in mind that this is just a little palace way down south.

[bn880 5]

Lot's happening lately.

Anyway I'v been laughing about something for over two weeks now, that the american forces will take their armor in the city (major highways) and claim they control this and that. Having armor all over open areas is not necessairly a sign of victory. It could be, maybe now there will be no serious resistance? Who knows.

But for sure there is the possibility of never really having control over the city. Soldiers can blend in as anyone in Baghdad, put on civilian clothes and hurray to the cameras. You still do not know when one of them will plan an attack on troops or a tank. This could only happen in the actual urban areas, with narrower streets than the ones beside the river. It seems rather odd that there is so little resistance, with thousands of RG in the city... maybe they are waiting for just that, close quarters fighting where armor will not support in large numbers. (as someone mentioned)

I don't think anyone ever doubted that US armor can drive around Baghdads major roads. We are talking about militaries from 2 different eras facing each other.

[theavonlady 2]

More WMD reports. Not clear if this is from embedded NPR reporters who are witnesses or who have been notified by coalition commanders.

edit: Mentioned at Debka, too:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US National Public Radio reports 20 medium-range BM-21 missiles equipped with sarin and mustard gas found near Baghdad. Top official with 1st Marine Division quoted as saying rockets were ready to fire. DEBKAfile’s sources do not confirm this report.<span id='postcolor'>

[theavonlady 2]

If it looks like WMDs and smells like WMDs and tastes like WMDS, it must be .............................................

<span style='font-size:37pt;line-height:100%'>WMDs!</span>

[Guest]

Yes, like the "mustard gas" and "serin" that was found last week.

I'll wait and see for real confirmation

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 07 2003,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, like the "mustard gas" and "serin" that was found last week.<span id='postcolor'>

I must've missed that one. I mean, I know there were initial reports that said that jars/drums/viles were found but I don't recall anything to this point of investigation.

Anyway, yep, wait and see.

[theavonlady 2]

MSNBC with more on the Sarin missiles:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/895392_asp.htm

edit: Yes, I read the bottom line.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 07 2003,16:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway I'v been laughing about something for over two weeks now, that the american forces will take their armor in the city (major highways) and claim they control this and that.  Having armor all over open areas is not necessairly a sign of victory.  It could be, maybe now there will be no serious resistance?  Who knows.

But for sure there is the possibility of never really having control over the city.  Soldiers can blend in as anyone in Baghdad, put on civilian clothes and hurray to the cameras.  You still do not know when one of them will plan an attack on troops or a tank.  This could only happen in the actual urban areas, with narrower streets than the ones beside the river.     It seems rather odd that there is so little resistance, with thousands of RG in the city... maybe they are waiting for just that, close quarters fighting where armor will not support in large numbers. (as someone mentioned)

I don't think anyone ever doubted that US armor can drive around Baghdads major roads.  We are talking about militaries from 2 different eras facing each other.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, the armor in the cities is NOT a sign of victory, but it is a sign of a fast approaching victory. Why? No serious resistance, certainly not an organized resistance. Take that with the footage of the Special Republican Guard units running away from the battle and stripping off their uniforms as they ran, as well as increasingly more frequent reports of Baath Party leaders switching into civilian clothes and attempting to flee the city, and you can see that things are coming apart from the top down. What this means is that it may take awhile for the fighting to stop, and there will probably be months of terrorist actions to follow, but once the average soldier sees he has been fucked over, lied to and abandoned by his superiors, he isn't going to fight, and might actually turn on those that remain. The Iraqi Information Minister is spewing out lies at a magnificent rate (as I pointed out a few days ago to those who still insisted on quoting his statements as if they contained an iota of fact) in part I believe to but time for the administration to escape with their hides intact.

As far as never really having control of the city, I disagree. Its probably going to take a long, long time, but fed, watered, employed, voting people who realize their lives have been dramatically improved over their previous existence, do not resist.

On a side note: Denoir, are you sure it was an RPG round that got the Bradley? I heard it was an arty round. Last night I was watching rpg rounds bounce right of the armor skirt of the Bradleys downtown, they seemd to make a few dents, but they didn't actually destroy the vehicle.

[Blaegis 0]

A question: In the footage shown so far, the SA80s carried by the British troops appeared either with SUSAT or with the carrying handle (presumably containing iron sights). I always thought that the SUSAT came as standard with the SA80. So have some troops replaced them as personal preference, or is there a "light" version of SA80 without the SUSAT? Also, have there been any reports on how the SA80 performed in the desert?

[Cloney 0]

I think only first-line troops get SUSATs, second-line and supply troops get a version with the carry-handle. Maybe some RM's prefer the Iron Sights version? Could be the same reason why some US Soldiers use the optional carry handle on the M4 and some use the Aimpoints.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 07 2003,21:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A question: In the footage shown so far, the SA80s carried by the British troops appeared either with SUSAT or with the carrying handle (presumably containing iron sights). I always thought that the SUSAT came as standard with the SA80. So have some troops replaced them as personal preference, or is there a "light" version of SA80 without the SUSAT? Also, have there been any reports on how the SA80 performed in the desert?<span id='postcolor'>

AFAIK the only versions of the SA-80 without the SUSAT are the ones for the cadets. Those ones are not even (semi)auto, u have to cock the weapon after each shot. Mind you, would you give a full auto rifle to a lil cadet? Dont think so

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 07 2003,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, like the "mustard gas" and "serin" that was found last week.<span id='postcolor'>

I must've missed that one. I mean, I know there were initial reports that said that jars/drums/viles were found but I don't recall anything to this point of investigation.

Anyway, yep, wait and see.<span id='postcolor'>

It`s kinda funny to imagine:

All the professional inspectors searching like mad, having the right to go everywhere anytime and doing that, but finding nothing. Then the Coalition forces find the WMDs in jars and so standing behind some houses like trash.

[Tydium 0]

UK: War has been won

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 07 2003,20:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree, the armor in the cities is NOT a sign of victory, but it is a sign of a fast approaching victory.  Why?  No serious resistance, certainly not an organized resistance.  Take that with the footage of the Special Republican Guard units running away from the battle and stripping off their uniforms as they ran, as well as increasingly more frequent reports of Baath Party leaders switching into civilian clothes and attempting to flee the city, and you can see that things are coming apart from the top down.  <span id='postcolor'>

I agree with this assessment.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On a side note: Denoir, are you sure it was an RPG round that got the Bradley? I heard it was an arty round. Last night I was watching rpg rounds bounce right of the armor skirt of the Bradleys downtown, they seemd to make a few dents, but they didn't actually destroy the vehicle.<span id='postcolor'>

Very sure. Note that we are talking about two different incidents. You have one at the bridge where an amphibious vehicle (dunno if it was a Bradley) was hit by an arty round and two marines were killed. Then you have the Bradley on the palace grounds (I assume you've all seen the footage by now) that gets hit by an RPG (you can even see the guy firing it) and starts burning. I don't know how many died in that - I saw three or four men jumping out of it before it exploded. They only got 1-2 m away from it so they were surely killed.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,19:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it looks like WMDs and smells like WMDs and tastes like WMDS, it must be .............................................

<span style='font-size:37pt;line-height:100%'>WMDs!</span><span id='postcolor'>

<span style='font-size:22pt;line-height:100%'>...NOT!</span>

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 07 2003,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You have one at the bridge where an amphibious vehicle (dunno if it was a Bradley) was hit by an arty round and two marines were killed.<span id='postcolor'>

It was an amphibious assault vehicle (AAV).  Apparently an arty round landed directly on the turret.

Semper Fi

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 07 2003,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,19:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it looks like WMDs and smells like WMDs and tastes like WMDS, it must be .............................................

<span style='font-size:37pt;line-height:100%'>WMDs!</span><span id='postcolor'>

<span style='font-size:22pt;line-height:100%'>...NOT!</span><span id='postcolor'>

<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>...Yet!</span>

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ April 07 2003,22:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 07 2003,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, like the "mustard gas" and "serin" that was found last week.<span id='postcolor'>

I must've missed that one. I mean, I know there were initial reports that said that jars/drums/viles were found but I don't recall anything to this point of investigation.

Anyway, yep, wait and see.<span id='postcolor'>

It`s kinda funny to imagine:

All the professional inspectors searching like mad, having the right to go everywhere anytime and doing that, but finding nothing. Then the Coalition forces find the WMDs in jars and so standing behind some houses like trash.      <span id='postcolor'>

Are you insinuating that the Coaltion has planted them there?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ April 08 2003,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you insinuating that the Coaltion has planted them there?<span id='postcolor'>

Considering for instance the faked Nigerian uranium evidence that was presented in the prelude of the war the thought isn't that far fetched. While I don't think that the military would get their hands dirty with planting evidence I'm sure that there are certain elements that would have no second thoughts about it. It's happened before and nothing significant has changed since then so it could very well happen again.

I'd say that the probabilty of planted evidence is about equal as the probability of Iraq having WMDs. Since Blix himself was pretty convinced that Iraq had not yet accounted for all the chemical weapons, it's possible that they still have 'em. The fact that they havn't used them now when the regime is taking its dying breaths disproves the initial theory of Iraq being a clear and present danger because of its WMD capabilities.

So in short: Would the Anglo-American coalition military forces plant them? No.

Would the CIA or something similar plant them? Why not.

[Guest]

Tikrit may witness last stand

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

With the focus of the war in Iraq now mainly on Baghdad, little attention is being paid to Saddam Hussein's home town of Tikrit, 160 kilometres (100 miles) to the north.

Some observers think it could be there, rather than in Baghdad, that Saddam Hussein or members of his family might choose to make their last stand.

It was in a village near Tikrit - a small town on the banks of the Tigris - that Saddam Hussein was born 65 years ago.

And it is the Sunni families in and around Tikrit that form the bedrock of his support, filling key posts in the army, the security apparatus and the ruling Baath Party.

Sumptuous palace

Under Saddam Hussein's rule, the town and its people have prospered. No longer a provincial backwater, it now has big new mosques, wide modern roads, larger-than-life portraits of the Iraqi ruler and one of his biggest and most sumptuous palaces.

As he faces what looks like his last battle, there are only two places Saddam Hussein really cares about - Baghdad and Tikrit.

When the Americans drew close to the capital, they were quick to cut the road to Tikrit.

But even now they cannot be sure whether elements of the leadership - including, if they are alive, Saddam Hussein's sons Uday and Qusay - have slipped through the net.

And the leader's own whereabouts continue to be a mystery.

If Baghdad were to fall, surviving members of the family might regard Tikrit as a base from which to organise resistance to the American and British forces.

<span id='postcolor'>

[Goeth 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ April 08 2003,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you insinuating that the Coaltion has planted them there?<span id='postcolor'>

Well why not.