Ww1 discussion

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 14 2003,22:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here is another source (web source)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the day of the offensive's launch, on 15 July, 23 German divisions of the First and Third Armies, under Mudra and Einem, attacked the French First Army (commanded by Gouraud) to the east of Reims, while a further 17 divisions of the Seventh Army, under Boehm, assisted by the new Ninth Army under Eben, attacked the French Sixth Army (Degoutte) in the west.

In attacking Reims in this way, Ludendorff aimed to split the French forces.  Joining the French were 85,000 U.S. forces plus troops from Sir Douglas Haig's British Expeditionary Force (BEF), although the majority of the latter's forces were located further north in Flanders.

The attack to the east quickly proved a failure and was halted at 11 am on the first day without being resumed.

However the offensive to the west of Reims was more successful, breaking through the French Sixth Army and crossing the Marne at Dormans.  Boehm, with the aid of six divisions, established a bridgehead nine miles in length and four in depth before the French Ninth Army, commanded by De Mitry and supported by British, American and Italian troops, halted his advance on 17 July.

With the Germans having ultimately failed in their efforts to break through, Ferdinand Foch, the Allied Supreme Commander, authorised a counter-offensive on 18 July, launching 24 divisions of the French army alone, in addition to U.S., British and Italian troops and some 350 tanks.

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Indeed, that is accurate. However, if you will take a look at your beautiful watercolor maps (and they really are pretty, aren't they? ), you will notice that the area where the Germans established bridgeheads over the Marne is to the East of Chateau-Thierry, not to the West and Southwest, which is where the weighted counteroffensive originated. In fact, that bridgehead almost halted the July 18th attack, but not for reasons you would expect. As Mangin prepared his reserves for the attack, Petain sent him this message on July 15th: "Boche has pocket south of Marne. Suspend operation so that I can send your reserves to battle south of Marne." Soon-to-be Marshal Foch overrode this order, allowing the build-up to continue. To balance this, Foch had BEF commander Douglas Haig commit 4 British reserve divisions to the fight south of the Marne (no doubt in conjunction with the French 9th Army). When the 10th Army offensive finally went off on the 18th, it was spearheaded by American 1st and 2nd Divisions, along with a Moroccan division of which I can't seem to find the name. This offensive cut the Chateau-Thierry/Soissons higway, which left the Germans to the South and East with their asses hanging in the breeze. They burned their stores and high-tailed it north, being pursued by the 10th, 6th, 5th, and 9th. But the major attack was provided by the 10th.

[Guest]

Nonono, you've completely mixed things up. The 10th army was way to the west and when the counter-offensive started they pushed (not very succesfully, I might add) in the area north of Compiegne and more succesfully to the east in the Soissons direction. The 6th army had withdrawn to the south west, (below your beloved Chateau-Thierry) and the 5th to the east.

The 9th army came from the south and attacked the German bridgehead, pushing them back over the Marne. They spearheaded the counteroffensive taking a lot of ground in days. Of the Armies involved the 9th took by far the most ground.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The 9th army came from the south and attacked the German bridgehead, pushing them back over the Marne. They spearheaded the counteroffensive taking a lot of ground in days. Of the Armies involved the 9th took by far the most ground.<span id='postcolor'>

All you have to do is look at the map to see that your claim does not add up. It is not possible that the 9th Army could have simultaneously made the Western push and rolled up the Marne pocket. The explanation is very simple: the 9th army was deployed entirely to the south and east of (my beloved ) Chateau Thierry. They performed admirably in their assigned task which was, in conjunction with the 5th Army, to stop the 15th July offensive across the Marne, reduce that pocket, and then push back across the river. They did participate in the counteroffensive, but not in the capacity that you believe they did. Your alleged deployment of the 9th in conjunction with your alleged accomplishments of the 9th simply do not make sense. If they attacked from the southwest of C-T, they would not have been in position to reduce the Marne pocket or cross the river- indeed, they would already have been across the river.

[Guest]

Would it help if I drew a picture?

Edit: Aha, I think I know the source of confusion. The big arrow that I drew was not meant to represent some special part of the counteroffensive, just a general direction.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Okay, obviously we got our wires crossed somewhere, as that map is exactly on the money as far as I am concerned. What exactly were we disagreeing about on this line of conversation?

See, here's what I'm saying: the attack by 10th Army that cut the line between Soissons and C-T between july 18th-july 22 was the major offensive as far as reduction of the Marne-Aisne salient is concerned. I am willing to accept that the 9th Army gained the most ground during the ensuing collapse of the pocket, because after july 22nd, the German effort had devolved to a retreat from the southern and eastern ends of the salient. Think of it as a standard single-envelopment: the main thrust is made by 10th Army, in an effort to roll up the German 7th and 9th Armies by cutting the supply lines that run from Soissons down towards the Marne. Although this attack eventually bogged down, it scared the Germans enough to cease all operations in the salient and pull back immediately to the Soissons line. It is therefore logical that 9th Army gained more ground, as they were facing an enemy that was retreating.

[Guest]

I think we still are in disagreement on who provided the main force of the counterattack. I say 9th, you say 10th. Or no, let me rephrase that, not who provided the main force, but who cleared most ground.

Edit: Looks like we're not in disagreement of that too.

Well, then I hope when your Texas friends say: We saved France's butt both world wars, that you'll correct them

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, then I hope when your Texas friends say: We saved France's butt both world wars, that you'll correct them

<span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. I'll let them know we made a solid contribution that was well-appreciated, in addition to saving their butts only once

Just to keep this discussion running:

Earlier, you mentioned that Germany's fate was sealed when they pulled back to the Hindenburg line. I disagree. Instead, it was a strong consolidation that caused Nivelle's offensive to fall flat on it's face.

[Balschoiw 0]

WWI is long over and we shouldn´t really try to find Francoir Gabun on the trench lines of the margineu line, should we ?

If I was mod I ´d tell you to have your conversation via PM

On the other hand it is quite interesting to read and denoir ´s map´s are great.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 15 2003,01:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Earlier, you mentioned that Germany's fate was sealed when they pulled back to the Hindenburg line. I disagree. Instead, it was a strong consolidation that caused Nivelle's offensive to fall flat on it's face.<span id='postcolor'>

The German strategy for WW1 was the Schlieffen plan of which the main principle was a strong attack and constantly pushing forward, no matter what. When they pulled back to the Hindenburg line it was obvious that the plan had failed. Instead of focusing on the objective of taking France they settled for trying to keep as much as they had taken. They were outnumbered and they were perfectly well aware of it. Their only hope came later when the Eastern front closed and they were to get large reinforcements, but that failed too because the transfer of the troops took much longer then they expected. The spring offensive in 1918 was dimensioned to include a lot of troops from the Eastern front but that were never there. So they failed.

Another turning point was the British utilization of the Mark IV tank at Cambrai. While that battle in question was not an outstanding success since the Germans took back most of it later, the warfare was conceptually different and the operational tactics was far better.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 13 2003,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 14 2003,17:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's cut the crap...

I live in central europe, Belgium to be exact, a nice little country that has been through some fights in it's history.  Some people might know it from Band of Brothers, i bet we can all remember Bastogne.  Others might remember Ypres (or Ieper in Dutch) where mustardgas was used for the first time and where farmers still find a huge amount of bombs every day, blah blah blah.

I've always been interested in the word wars, especially because i'm so connected to it, my grandfather was in the resistance and escaped execution several times, he knows stuff that only one other person on this fucking planet knows.  We also found ammo in the roof of a little cabin that was in our garden, the germans used the house where i'm sitting in right now as one of their headquarters, they actually used to eat here.  

This might all be off topic and totally useless information, i just wanted to show all of you that the war is still here, it might've ended a couple years ago but it's traces are still here.  Maybe that's why i get angry when some countries think that they won the war, let's just get this straight.  Personally i don't think the amount of French, British, American, German, Dutch, Belgian,... ppl who died on the battlefiel called Europe is of any importance when talking about what country 'won' the war.<span id='postcolor'>

belgium paid a heavy tribute to WW1 , i remind reading about some german exactions against belgian population and the way the king Albert the 1rst answered to the german ultimatum by the negative

i've once seen a picture , the men on it were wearing  leather hats , the text with the picture said that they were belgians , but do you have any idea of what they are exactly ?<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm, hard to tell what they were, could be pretty much everything

edit: Might've been one of these guys: Click here

Edit 2: It also could've been Infantry soldiers, they used to wear weird clothes and a leather hat

[Guest BratZ]

Wow , some very smart people here. I am from the US and in school we are taught that we won the war type thing.

From my own reasearch I strongly believe that we snubbed our noses for most of the war, our aircraft technology was definately behind most other countries,we maintained the defense land practice for a while. And when we started making some decent planes,we helped by sending some to other countries.

I strongly believe that the US didn't win the war.Just our involvement helped scare the enemy.Same sorta thing happened in WW2 also.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 15 2003,15:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 13 2003,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 14 2003,17:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's cut the crap...

I live in central europe, Belgium to be exact, a nice little country that has been through some fights in it's history.  Some people might know it from Band of Brothers, i bet we can all remember Bastogne.  Others might remember Ypres (or Ieper in Dutch) where mustardgas was used for the first time and where farmers still find a huge amount of bombs every day, blah blah blah.

I've always been interested in the word wars, especially because i'm so connected to it, my grandfather was in the resistance and escaped execution several times, he knows stuff that only one other person on this fucking planet knows.  We also found ammo in the roof of a little cabin that was in our garden, the germans used the house where i'm sitting in right now as one of their headquarters, they actually used to eat here.  

This might all be off topic and totally useless information, i just wanted to show all of you that the war is still here, it might've ended a couple years ago but it's traces are still here.  Maybe that's why i get angry when some countries think that they won the war, let's just get this straight.  Personally i don't think the amount of French, British, American, German, Dutch, Belgian,... ppl who died on the battlefiel called Europe is of any importance when talking about what country 'won' the war.<span id='postcolor'>

belgium paid a heavy tribute to WW1 , i remind reading about some german exactions against belgian population and the way the king Albert the 1rst answered to the german ultimatum by the negative

i've once seen a picture , the men on it were wearing  leather hats , the text with the picture said that they were belgians , but do you have any idea of what they are exactly ?<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm, hard to tell what they were, could be pretty much everything

edit: Might've been one of these guys: Click here

Edit 2:  It also could've been Infantry soldiers, they used to wear weird clothes and a leather hat

<span id='postcolor'>

i mean , they were wearin a weird leather hat kinda like the ones rich men used to wear in the 19th century

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 14 2003,18:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 15 2003,151)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 13 2003,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 14 2003,17:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's cut the crap...

I live in central europe, Belgium to be exact, a nice little country that has been through some fights in it's history.  Some people might know it from Band of Brothers, i bet we can all remember Bastogne.  Others might remember Ypres (or Ieper in Dutch) where mustardgas was used for the first time and where farmers still find a huge amount of bombs every day, blah blah blah.

I've always been interested in the word wars, especially because i'm so connected to it, my grandfather was in the resistance and escaped execution several times, he knows stuff that only one other person on this fucking planet knows.  We also found ammo in the roof of a little cabin that was in our garden, the germans used the house where i'm sitting in right now as one of their headquarters, they actually used to eat here.  

This might all be off topic and totally useless information, i just wanted to show all of you that the war is still here, it might've ended a couple years ago but it's traces are still here.  Maybe that's why i get angry when some countries think that they won the war, let's just get this straight.  Personally i don't think the amount of French, British, American, German, Dutch, Belgian,... ppl who died on the battlefiel called Europe is of any importance when talking about what country 'won' the war.<span id='postcolor'>

belgium paid a heavy tribute to WW1 , i remind reading about some german exactions against belgian population and the way the king Albert the 1rst answered to the german ultimatum by the negative

i've once seen a picture , the men on it were wearing  leather hats , the text with the picture said that they were belgians , but do you have any idea of what they are exactly ?<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm, hard to tell what they were, could be pretty much everything

edit: Might've been one of these guys: Click here

Edit 2:  It also could've been Infantry soldiers, they used to wear weird clothes and a leather hat

<span id='postcolor'>

i mean , they were wearin a weird leather hat kinda like the ones rich men used to wear in the 19th century<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmmmmmmm

No idea... perhaps try a google search on WW1 and costumes or clothes or something like that...

[ran 0]

found it , they're refered as belgian carabiniers

[-TU--33ker 0]

lol they look like german "Schornsteinfeger", people who clean your chimney.

[DarkLight 0]

BAH! We'll see who's laughing when one of these guys

practises his bajonet skills on one of these guys

[joltan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 15 2003,19:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">found it , they're refered as belgian carabiniers<span id='postcolor'>

They look more like 'chimney cleaners' (don't know the english word for it) than like soldiers...

Edit: LOL [TU]$33ker - hehe, got interrupted typing, diidn't see you already typed that.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Enough of the intellectual pissing contests, haven't we had enough of these over the year/s?. Where does it really get us? Other than learning something, does anyone really win an argument? I don't think I've seen it happen yet..... So let's learn something instead.

I just pulled out my "Big Canadian Book of WW I" and it sez:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More than 600,000 Canadians served in WW1. 60,661 Canadians were killed.<span id='postcolor'>

Canada can claim the highest scoring Allied ace of the war:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Captain Billy Bishop was Canada’s leading air ace of WW1, shooting down 72 German fighters (confirmed) over the Western Front.<span id='postcolor'>

A Canadian shot down the 'Red Baron':

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On April 21, 1918, Canadian pilot Captain Roy Brown shot down the infamous German flying ace, Baron Manfred von Richthofen, also known as the Red Baron. Richthofen was WW1’s most outstanding fighter pilot, shooting down 80 Allied planes.<span id='postcolor'>

Some misguided Aussies might dispute that, but we all know they are dead wrong.

Canada kicked some Hun ass at Vimy Ridge:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The battle of Vimy Ridge in April, 1917 was a turning point in the stalled Allied offensive to break through an eleven mile stretch of German lines in France. 130,000 Canadian troops cut a 3-mile gap in the enemy’s line and took 4000 German prisoners. The cost was over 10,000 Canadians killed or wounded. France gave 250 acres of land on Vimy Ridge to Canada after the war as a memorial to the service of Canadians on the Western Front. On a large memorial are the names of 11,500 Canadians who were killed in the war but who have no known graves.<span id='postcolor'>

Canada also fought in one of the last battles:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the last day of the war, November 10-11, 1918, Canadian troops battled Germans at Mons, the sight of a famous battle in the early days of the war in 1914. They fought through the night and the Canadians finally entered the town in the morning. As the armistice time grew near, the two sides withdrew their assaults. 57 Canadians died on the last day of the war at Mons.<span id='postcolor'>

And had the last official casualty:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Canadian Private George Price was shot and killed by a German sniper on the Western Front at 10:58 a.m. on the morning of November 11, 1918. Two minutes later the armistice was signed. According to known records, Price was the final casualty of WW1.

<span id='postcolor'>

A Canadian (John McCrae) also wrote one of the best poems of the war. It's even on our new $10 bill. (the first part of it anyway)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

In Flanders Fields

In Flanders fields the poppies blow

Between the crosses, row on row

That mark our place; and in the sky

The larks, still bravely singing, fly

Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago

We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,

Loved and were loved, and now we lie

In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:

To you from failing hands we throw

The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die

We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

In Flanders fields.

<span id='postcolor'>

The monument at Vimy:

I hope we all learned something.

Sure, Canada was never really a deciding factor in the war, but damnit, we were there, and that much deserves respect. The same can be said about any country, big or small.

So there!

Tyler

[Warin 0]

Thanks for that post, Assault. You said a lot of things I wanted to say but didnt!

I've heard the Vimy memorial is oin VERY poor repair. With all the money being raised for the Juno Beach museum and memorial, perhaps someone should start a fund to refurbish the Vimy memorial.

Got some spare time there Assault? We could co-ordinate it, and take a trip to Vimy when it's done!

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joltan @ Mar. 15 2003,20:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 15 2003,19:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">found it , they're refered as belgian carabiniers<span id='postcolor'>

They look more like 'chimney cleaners' (don't know the english word for it) than like soldiers...<span id='postcolor'>

yeah , that's what i thought too . that's why the picture marked me

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Got some spare time there Assault? We could co-ordinate it, and take a trip to Vimy when it's done!

<span id='postcolor'>

Unfortunately, the amount of money I could contribute would be cancelled out by the cost of airfare to France. But I do beleive that there are foundations for that monument and I have heard about it's state of disrepair in the news on a few occasions. So people here do know about it.

I think that the Juno memorial should be built ASAP while the veterans and relatives of the dead who fought there are still alive to see it.

If only I had finished my infantry training a year earlier, I could have taken a trip to Europe to see that monument and other battle sights with my Regiment, but alas, I had to attend summer school when my training time came.

Tyler

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Mar. 15 2003,22:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Got some spare time there Assault? We could co-ordinate it, and take a trip to Vimy when it's done!

<span id='postcolor'>

Unfortunately, the amount of money I could contribute would be cancelled out by the cost of airfare to France. But I do beleive that there are foundations for that monument and I have heard about it's state of disrepair in the news on a few occasions. So people here do know about it.

I think that the Juno memorial should be built ASAP while the veterans and relatives of the dead who fought there are still alive to see it.

If only I had finished my infantry training a year earlier, I could have taken a trip to Europe to see that monument and other battle sights with my Regiment, but alas, I had to attend summer school when my training time came.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

The Juno Beach Museum opens this June, at least that was the last thing I heard.

Hum, I am going to have to look into it and see if there is a Vimy Foundation.

[interstat 0]

Canadians contributed a fair amount, I must agree.

Aslo, peopel forget the amount of men lost in the Gurkha's and the effort they contributed.

Saying who played the greatest part in WW1 is useless.

What about the Russians in Korea, who were secretly supplying the Koreans with Migs?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ Mar. 16 2003,20:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What about the Russians in Korea, who were secretly supplying the Koreans with Migs?<span id='postcolor'>

I'd say it was obvious where the MiG's were coming from . The secret was that they were also supplying pilots

[Tex -USMC- 0]

lol, sorry about not replying; my desire to write anything longer than 2 paragraphs died about halfway through spring break Anyhow, that desire hasn't come back yet- just thought I'd let you know