Truth, justice,

[NurEinMensch 0]

Look, I'm not saying that what the US did was right.  I certainly wouldn't want to be tortured, so I wouldn't do it to anyone else.  But lets look past the news report here.  Shouldn't we do everything possible to stop terrorists from killing more civilians?  Why should we give a terrorist the same rights we give an innocent person when that very same terrorist wants to kill the innocent person?  Don't you think innocent peoples lives outweigh an evil person's rights?

[...]

Wait a moment. Those people who were rounded up in Afghanistan, where they terrorists? Some probably were, but most of them I guess not. So if they aren't terrorists, they are innocent.

What's difference between Americans killing innocents and others killing innocents? Please tell me, because I don't see a difference here.

If you act like them your as bad as them. And guess what that makes you in the war against terror.

[FSPilot 0]

Oligo

Quote[/b] ]How do you propose we can tell whether a person is "good" or "bad"? How can you be 100% certain that somebody is a terrorist and thus should be tortured in order to obtain intel? Please enlighten us.

What difference does it make? They've done a good job of it so far, at least there's no evidence to suggest they haven't.

NurEinMensch

Quote[/b] ]Wait a moment. Those people who were rounded up in Afghanistan, where they terrorists? Some probably were, but most of them I guess not. So if they aren't terrorists, they are innocent.

What's difference between Americans killing innocents and others killing innocents? Please tell me, because I don't see a difference here.

If you act like them your as bad as them. And guess what that makes you in the war against terror.

Those people, surrenered Taliban soldiers, who were rounded up in Afghanistan weren't even allegedly shot by US troops.

Balschoiw, I've looked at the links you posted. Not a single one of them tries to blame the US for shooting the POWs. If it even happened in the first place, the US didn't do anything, may not of even known about it.

[Die Alive 0]

In the movie, they talk to the Northern Alliance fighter who shot up the cargo container with his AK to make air holes, and in the process killed several of the Taliban inside.

Good intentions gone awfully wrong.

-=Die Alive=-

[DarkLight 0]

Quote[/b] ]The problem is that these days everyone is a terrorist, if i forget to put the milk back into the fridge i'll probable get nuked...  becaaaauuuuse, if i refuse to put the milk back into the fridge it'll be 'bad' after some days.  Now of course my family doesn't know that and because they don't realize what's going on, they'll drink the milk and be ill.

DEAR FUCKING GOD, TERRORIST ALARM, TERRORIST ALARM!!!!!!!

CODE PINK CODE PINK!!!! EVERYBODY TAKE COVER!!!

AAAAH, MODS QUICKLY, SEARCH MY IP ADRESS AND SEND IT TO THE US GOVERNMENT, I MUST BE ELEMINATED EMMEDIATLY (sp?),  JUST IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I'D DO THE SAME THING TO THE WHOOOOLE WESTERN WORLD!!!

ITS HORRIBLE, SAVE OUR DEAR CHILDREN!!!!  

*sigh*  *rolls eyes*

Are you rolling your eyes at your melodrama?

Yep

Quote[/b] ]Like you know what's going on in the procedures when they choose who to interrogate? You're acting like they just pick random people out of the crowd of prisoners.

No i don't know what's going on during all those procedures, but what i do know is that a lot of ppl get killed for nothing, it doesn't matter if america does it or if some 'terrorists' do it. In the end it's all the same, i don't give a damn if the person who dies is an american, a european, an asian, an indian, a black person, a white person,...! Do you really think i fucking care? A life is a life, if a life gets lost for nothing then that's pretty fucking bad... I don't look at color, nationality or whatever could affect someone else. To me, your life, as an american, isn't worth more but also isn't worth less than any other guy.

Quote[/b] ]A lot of innocent people have been killed by terrorists. You just don't care because America didn't do the killing.

I do care that a lot of ppl have been killed, but do you really think torturing will be only for the bad?

If torturing would be allowed i bet a lot of ppl would use it in a very bad way, both allied countries and terrorists.

You should show the way it's supposed to be, not the nasty way... You are the 'civilized' side, why not do what a civilized country should do?

Sure you can catch "terrorists" and ask them all kinds of stuff, but torturing is just crazy, you can never know who exactly you are talking to...

Torturing is horrible,

it's yet another disgrace

to our pretty fucked up human race

(notice, disgrace-race ;) )

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Balschoiw, I've looked at the links you posted. Not a single one of them tries to blame the US for shooting the POWs.

I didn´t say the US actively shot prisoners but what the UN knows and everybody else knows is that US soldiers have been at the same place, at the same time, at the same date at the transported prisoners they had to take care off cause they surrendered in parts to US troops. You were responsible for them. It doesnt really matter if you kill them on your own or allow to let them be killed. The US were responsible for these POW´s and stood side by side with the guys who killed them. If you want to know wich parts of US troops are in question send me a PM and I will check if I am allowed to tell it to you. We don´t talk about nameless soldiers. The UN knows wich US troops were at the place when the killing took place and the UN knows that they were not miles away but directly at the spot with the Northern Alliance troops.

[FSPilot 0]

Darklight

Quote[/b] ]No i don't know what's going on during all those procedures, but what i do know is that a lot of ppl get killed for nothing, it doesn't matter if america does it or if some 'terrorists' do it.  In the end it's all the same, i don't give a damn if the person who dies is an american, a european, an asian, an indian, a black person, a white person,...! Do you really think i fucking care?  A life is a life, if a life gets lost for nothing then that's pretty fucking bad...  I don't look at color, nationality or whatever could affect someone else.  To me, your life, as an american, isn't worth more but also isn't worth less than any other guy.  

Maybe we're talking about something different.  I wasn't talking about the "Afghan Massacre" where afghan troops are accused of slaughtering surrendered taliban.  I'm talking abou the two people who died during interrogation on a prison base in Cuba.

Now, of course the two lives were worth an equal amount as any other live, I never said otherwise.

Quote[/b] ]Sure you can catch "terrorists" and ask them all kinds of stuff, but torturing is just crazy, you can never know who exactly you are talking to...

And how do you know that?

Balschoiw

Quote[/b] ]I didn´t say the US actively shot prisoners but what the UN knows and everybody else knows is that US soldiers have been at the same place, at the same time, at the same date at the transported prisoners they had to take care off cause they surrendered in parts to US troops. You were responsible for them. It doesnt really matter if you kill them on your own or allow to let them be killed. The US were responsible for these POW´s and stood side by side with the guys who killed them. If you want to know wich parts of US troops are in question send me a PM and I will check if I am allowed to tell it to you. We don´t talk about nameless soldiers. The UN knows wich US troops were at the place when the killing took place and the UN knows that they were not miles away but directly at the spot with the Northern Alliance troops.

Well I'd like to see some of the UN's proof.  Even if the US troops in question were at the same place and time that the incident took place, there's no real way to prove that the US troops knew of the Afghan troops plans, if any, to shoot the POWs or to even transport the POWs in containers.

This could very easilly turn out to be a case of a few angry Afghans with rifles exacting revenge on their enemys for 20-some years.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

So far, all evidence I've seen suggests the following:

-Afghans committed all atrocities.

-US Special Forces got caught holding the bag, because they were supposed to be helping the Northern Alliance militarily, not holding their hands while teaching them about the Geneva Accords.

-The Afghan warlord in question not only personally ordered all war crimes committed, he then told investigators that he made every effort to ease the conditions of the POWs.

-In reality, his efforts to ease their suffering extended as far as ordering his soldiers to fire into the cargo containers to create airholes.

-US Special Forces, when faced with what had happened, had to choose between A) putting up with the sort of brutality that has marked Afghan warfare for centuries, or B) destroying an alliance that they had expended considerable monetary funds and military hardware and expertise into creating. You wouldn't believe it, but allies don't take it well when you inform them that you are going to turn them in for things that they are accustomed to.

-US Special Forces, whose entire goal in the first place was to create a framework of functionality between US and Afghan forces, decided that their mission was more important than some murdered POWs, and let the warlord go about his business.

-There is exactly zero indication that US Special Forces executed any prisoners at all.

Balschoiw, I have a hard time finding a reason why these are 'US WAR CRIMES', as opposed to 'another day's work for an Afghan warlord'. All testimony that does indicate that Americans might have committed war crimes come straight from the Afghan commander who, by his own troop's admission, ordered firing into the cargo containers. Do you want me to draw you a picture or what?! These testimonials are not reliable sources.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Edit: not to mention, both Time and Newsweek have run stories on these alleged warcrimes, and that was almost a year ago.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tex [uSMC]-

Quote[/b] ]"or B) destroying an alliance that they had expended considerable monetary funds and military hardware and expertise into creating"

This seems to suggest that conserving monetary funds and military hardware is more important than preserving human life (specifically of defenceless prisoners of war). That doesnt sound like how 'the forces of good' would view things to me.

How can the US "rid the world of evil" if their own forces are complicit in 'evil' acts?

Perhaps international evil acts can only originate from sources foreign to the US?

I fear where President Bush is leading America with his stark ideological splitting of the world into good and evil camps.

-Defeat is foreign, victory is American.

-The defeated are EVIL!

-Evil is foreign, innocence is American.

-DO EVERYTHING to eradicate evil!

-DO ANYTHING to protect the innocent!

But the 'other' is noone but your brother separated by a trick of space and a trick of the mind.

Judge not lest you be judged Mr.Bush!

[Major Fubar 0]

Oligo

Quote[/b] ]How do you propose we can tell whether a person is "good" or "bad"? How can you be 100% certain that somebody is a terrorist and thus should be tortured in order to obtain intel? Please enlighten us.

What difference does it make?  They've done a good job of it so far, at least there's no evidence to suggest they haven't.

Yeah, who cares if a few innocent people get tortured and executed, as long as our Western way of life is safe...

[FSPilot 0]

Major Fubar

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, who cares if a few innocent people get tortured and executed, as long as our Western way of life is safe...

Where are you pulling this from? Nobody's even accused the US of torturing innocent people.

Isthatyoujohnwayne

Quote[/b] ]Judge not lest you be judged Mr.Bush!

You say that like they consulted the president before this happened. This is one thing you can't blame on him.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Tex [uSMC]-

Quote[/b] ]"or B) destroying an alliance that they had expended considerable monetary funds and military hardware and expertise into creating"

This seems to suggest that conserving monetary funds and military hardware is more important than preserving human life (specifically of defenceless prisoners of war). That doesnt sound like how 'the forces of good' would view things to me.

What, do you want me to say that this is a good thing? It sounds awful, of course. But you have to understand that Afghan commanders were never subordinate to the United States, especially not when the US was only represented by a few Green Beret A-Teams. There is no indication that the troops on the ground had the leverage necessary to halt the slaughter. In addition, we don't know what the relationship was between these Afghans and the US liaisons- trying to stop certain acts that are traditionally accepted in Afghan mujaheddin tradition may have turned out to be not only hazardous to their professional relationship with the Afghan commander, but also to the American soldier's health. And, until you can prove that either Americans pulled the trigger, or Americans ordered the shootings, then the only case you have is against the Afghan commander and his soldiers.

[Major Fubar 0]

Major Fubar

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, who cares if a few innocent people get tortured and executed, as long as our Western way of life is safe...

Where are you pulling this from?  Nobody's even accused the US of torturing innocent people.

I am not saying it has happened, I am saying that with your philosophy of "Whatever it takes", it can (easily) happen, and may have already for all that you or I know.

It's the same reason the death penalty isn't a good idea. Sure, the majority who are killed will deserve it, but there will inevitably be the odd person who is innocent but dies anyway.

[Oligo 1]

It's the same reason the death penalty isn't a good idea. Sure, the majority who are killed will deserve it, but there will inevitably be the odd person who is innocent but dies anyway.

I'm sure the reply to this is going to be: "If you want to make an omelette, you got to break some eggs."

Blah.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tex [uSMC]-

Quote[/b] ]But you have to understand that Afghan commanders were never subordinate to the United States, especially not when the US was only represented by a few Green Beret A-Teams. There is no indication that the troops on the ground had the leverage necessary to halt the slaughter. In addition, we don't know what the relationship was between these Afghans and the US liaisons- trying to stop certain acts that are traditionally accepted in Afghan mujaheddin tradition may have turned out to be not only hazardous to their professional relationship with the Afghan commander, but also to the American soldier's health

To my (limited) knowledge they never actually tried to find out if they had the leverage necessary. You tend to have more leverage and a higher likelyhood of not being killed by allies than normal when you are employed by the worlds remaining superpower. Afghan leaders may be barbaric but they dont live if they are totally stupid. Why would they allow their men to kill US troops for attepting to ensure the safety of POWS?

If someone is commiting a warcrime then what kind of example does it set for troops of the worlds remaining superpower and the self proclaimed 'forces of good' to look on and do nothing (perhaps for fear of bodily harm)?

I understand what you are saying Tex and i think things like this are almost inevitable when a country engages in conflict in places where war is a way of life and makes allies of brutal war criminals. Im sure the SAS let similar things (or worse) happen in the Afghan war in the eighties.

Perhaps Mr. Bush should take all that into account next time hes playing to the crowd before he opens his mouth to bleat out another tired line about how flawless and good Americans are and how evildoers the world over will be punished by righteous American power. The earths surface is mostly liquid so lines tend to blur pretty quickly after you paint them.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Perhaps Mr. Bush should take all that into account next time hes playing to the crowd before he opens his mouth to bleat out another tired line about how flawless and good Americans are and how evildoers the world over will be punished by righteous American power. The earths surface is mostly liquid so lines tend to blur pretty quickly after you paint them.

Which brings me to my point. Are you willing to prosecute soldiers for warcrimes because their Commander in Chief practices realpolitick? That's almost as dumb as attacking Iraq because some Saudi Arabian terrorists attacked us...

[FSPilot 0]

Major Fubar

Quote[/b] ]I am not saying it has happened, I am saying that with your philosophy of "Whatever it takes", it can (easily) happen, and may have already for all that you or I know.

Yes, accidents can happen.

Quote[/b] ]It's the same reason the death penalty isn't a good idea. Sure, the majority who are killed will deserve it, but there will inevitably be the odd person who is innocent but dies anyway.

So we should allow thousands of innocent people to die?

[Milkman 1]

*sighs*

I don't understand. When I first joined this board there was no political threads that criticized any nation, now it seems the OT forum has become nothing but a place for people to blame someone else's government, especially the United States.

Why is the United States the only country being insulted on this forum? I don't hear any Germans bitching about their chancellor, who promised economic growth and to lower unemployment rates not fulfilling his promise to the German people.

Is their a reason why the United States must take fire for everything it does? Is their a specific reason a large part of Europe hates the United States?

Are you jealous? Angry that we can do what we need to do to ensure national and international security?

How would you like your country having the huge responsibility of policing the third world? Ensuring democratic ideals in places like Africa where European colonialism destroyed many peoples chance for a decent life. As a matter of fact, many of the conflicts in the world that are going on this instant are the direct effects of poor colonial management. The blundering of resources and abandoning the country once its resources were spent has led to the shit hole of a world we live in today.

Oh, but now I'm criticizing Europeans. Oh no, now you feel what it is like to be criticized for foreign policy.

Lets look at Iraq. Many will argue that we are there to plunder their large oil resources. But what about the Europeans? They signed contracts with the Baath party regime led by Saddam Hussein that gave them oil, and now that the Baath party is no more, those contracts are invalid. Why didn't France, Russia, China and Germany not support an invasion of Iraq? Because they would lose their oil contracts. And now that billions of US Dollars and a huge amount of Manpower has been spent invading Iraq, without France, Germany, Russia, or China's help. These countries want their contracts back, tough, because you didn't help us out so you don't get jack shit.

I think it is time to stop political discussion of this type. Not because my country is the target of much of it, but because of the flaming of individuals that does not abide by forum rules. What sickens me the most is a cetain few moderators take part in whole mess. They abuse their power so when someone says "hey that is not right moderator," the mod-in-question shoots back saying "

Quote[/b] ]§6)No discussion on how the forum is moderated. All comments about how the forum is moderated and your opinions on the moderators should be sent by PM to the moderator whose decision you disagree with.

" What is PMing a mod going to do? Absolutely nothing.

Second reason to stop this type of thread; What is it going to accomplish? What will happen in the end? A government will not change its policies just because someone named

"[bxM]Killer85 (fake name btw)" said that [insert country here] sucks at helping people. All these types of threads accomplish is flaming, anger and waste of server space. There is nothing to be accomplished by angering a country's people or their supporters.

Just make it stop. I, along with many others are tired of it.

[Guest]

Since you are willingly and knowingly breaking forum rules, you can think about the wisdom of that during the next 48h when you won't be allowed to post here.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tex [uSMC]-

Quote[/b] ]"Which brings me to my point. Are you willing to prosecute soldiers for warcrimes because their Commander in Chief practices realpolitick? That's almost as dumb as attacking Iraq because some Saudi Arabian terrorists attacked us"

Id much rather prosecute parts of TBA for hypocrisy but i guess if that was possible then countries all around the world would run out of politicians pretty quick (sounds like a winner to me!). I think the decision to 'use' the Northern Alliance is questionable at the least. Having made the decision to use them i think more should have been done to force them to conform to the rules of war or initiate the unpleasantness

without them. Realpolitik is supposed to be going out of fashion (though i dont think anyones told the neo-cons)

Perhaps members of the administration (those who took key decisions) should be investigated in relation to this event. Of course it aint going to happen and i admit i have only some of the facts but as you admit yourself it sounds awful.  

Sgt. Milkman-

Quote[/b] ]"Why is the United States the only country being insulted on this forum? I don't hear any Germans bitching about their chancellor, who promised economic growth and to lower unemployment rates not fulfilling his promise to the German people."

I dispute that remark. I personally have endeavoured to insult a wide and representative range of countries on this board .

Really i dont think most people here are interested in insulting 'America' per se (there are a some idiots who are its true) but many obviously feel unhappy about the particular turn of events regarding foreign policy and so may sometimes

criticise the US government (myself included). Believe it or not invading countries tends to get more attention than the slumping of economies (go figure). Especially in a wargaming offtopic forum. It has always been thus.

Unlike you, most europeans and other people around the world cant do anything much about the US governments policies (those of the most economically and militarily powerful country) ,whether they agree with them or not , apart from posting comments on internet forums. I think it is a natural human instinct when there is a disagreement to try to convince people or your argument and dissuade them from theirs.

So sometimes people go too far here with their criticisms of America, but banning all political discussion is not the only way of dealing with the situation.

I would much like to debate colonial history with you (once you are unPRed) but its late now so ill leave the rest of your post alone (much as i would dispute parts of it)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Tex [uSMC]-

Quote[/b] ]"Which brings me to my point. Are you willing to prosecute soldiers for warcrimes because their Commander in Chief practices realpolitick? That's almost as dumb as attacking Iraq because some Saudi Arabian terrorists attacked us"

Id much rather prosecute parts of TBA for hypocrisy but i guess if that was possible then countries all around the world would run out of politicians pretty quick (sounds like a winner to me!). I think the decision to 'use' the Northern Alliance is questionable at the least. Having made the decision to use them i think more should have been done to force them to conform to the rules of war or initiate the unpleasantness

without them. Realpolitik is supposed to be going out of fashion (though i dont think anyones told the neo-cons)

That's just fine and dandy, and I must say that i don't disagree. However, there is a massive gap between being angry at TBA for their *ahem* creative use of regional allies, and prosecuting soldiers for war crimes when there is no evidence that they committed said acts.

Oh and, when was hypocrisy a crime?

[Supah 0]

@ May 29 2003,02:50)]However, there is a massive gap between being angry at TBA for their *ahem* creative use of regional allies, and prosecuting soldiers for war crimes when there is no evidence that they committed said acts.

Continueing on that i found the belgians charging the US commander in Iraq (tommy franks i believe) plain stupid. For war crimes? Seriously who really believes that. There were arguments here in the netherlands that he was "Just following orders" which i didnt agree with either, that excuse hasnt worked since nurmberg. The fact that he, or TBA, wont allow that trail to happen is a bit odd too. If you have nothing to hide ... I am very much certain that no human rights offences were commited in Iraq and if they were they were acts by individual soldiers. Though i have my reservations about the USA's foreign policy i dont think they ordered anything like that.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ May 29 2003,02:50)]However, there is a massive gap between being angry at TBA for their *ahem* creative use of regional allies, and prosecuting soldiers for war crimes when there is no evidence that they committed said acts.

The fact that he, or TBA, wont allow that trail to happen is a bit odd too. If you have nothing to hide ... I am very much certain that no human rights offences were commited in Iraq and if they were they were acts by individual acts of soldiers. Though i have my reservations about the USA's foreign policy i dont think they ordered anything like that.

It isn't a matter of guilt or innocence, it's a matter of jurisdiction. The Belgian justice system does not have a legal basis for bringing soldiers of a sovereign nation to trial, nor do they have the military wherewithal to forcibly extradite Franks to stand trial. So, not only is the Belgian court system in the wrong from a legal standpoint, but it doesn't have the ability to enforce its will anyways. They obviously knew this, so that leads me to only one inescapable conclusion. The charges were merely and brought against Franks as an empty political gesture meant not to uphold justice, but to let the US know what that particular corner of Europe thinks of our leadership.

[Supah 0]

@ May 29 2003,03:11)]They obviously knew this, so that leads me to only one inescapable conclusion. The charges were merely and brought against Franks as an empty political gesture meant not to uphold justice, but to let the US know what that particular corner of Europe thinks of our leadership.

Well you have a point there but not entirely. Remember this is not the belgian government filing these charges. You and me, dunno if you need to be a belgian national to file charges, can file charges there against anyone, say arafat. I wouldnt read to much in to this as to the belgian standpoint. And what the particular corner of europe thinks about of bush is very well know thanks to the massive peace demonstrations and people chanting "Bush miller" (You arent allowed to say killer, people found that out during the 60's) when USA dignitaries visit amsterdam

[Major Fubar 0]

Major Fubar

Quote[/b] ]I am not saying it has happened, I am saying that with your philosophy of "Whatever it takes", it can (easily) happen, and may have already for all that you or I know.

Yes, accidents can happen.  

Quote[/b] ]It's the same reason the death penalty isn't a good idea. Sure, the majority who are killed will deserve it, but there will inevitably be the odd person who is innocent but dies anyway.

So we should allow thousands of innocent people to die?

Sorry, you can't justify the use of torture, even if it is to potentially save thousands. And that is the key...potentially. There is no guarantee that the person your are toruring has the information you are after anyway. Not to mention (as has been stated numerous times before in this thread) that people under duress of torture tend to tell their torturers what they think they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

In your logic, is it OK to do inhumane medical experiments on poor and homeless people against their will which MIGHT produce results that will save thousands of lives?

I hope you remember this discussion if you ever find yourself, a friend or family member being tortured or executed in a case of mistaken identity or misinformation - will you think to yourself "Yes, accidents can happen. "