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B_Fox

What would you do If Arma 4 isn't what you expected?

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I just finished watching Genesis's video on his break up with Arma 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-hKBnUxUgI and It's kinda got me thinking.


What would I do or where would In go if Arma 4 isn't meant for me?


First i must say i am a single player only type of guy. That weird type of guy who likes to see his missions play themselves and watch the AI fight. IMO there are games that are made around multiplayer that do that far better than Arma could. But to me Arma's strengths has been its editor, AI and mods. What if Arma 4 comes out and its not that, it morphed into something different but not to different, a clone of something? Or should i say its become a clone of itself. Like a shadow of its former self, chasing its own trend.

It enviously looks at what other people had, sitting there thinking, "I started this but yet they grow fat off my hard work!" Wishing to be so much like them that it cut itself up and neglected to look at the beauty that was in the mirror. Like having nagging friends who see you for you and offers advice, whether it can be achievable or not, you know it comes from a good place, a good heart and mind. But yet you go on looking and cutting to fit that mold, the mold you started by being outside the mold. Truly! you've done it! You've outplayed yourself!

Or what if,

I'm just a obsolete player? What if my niche is getting increasingly smaller and smaller and i just don't know it yet? Maybe this is my brush with the fake reality I've been obsessed with? What if I'm so much of a armaholic that i refuse to be rejected by my lover. The same thing happened in sim racing and Arial combat sims ai has become of lesser importance while multiplayer has been the priority since... well since a while now. Maybe that was always the goal. Am I just a relic? Grand kids grown up and my game out of touch, out of time?!

TL;DR

Arma 4 might be more squad than Arma, more MP focused than SP focused. Maybe because that has always been the end goal.

Maybe everyone but a small few want that. The world has changed but we've remained the same.

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What if the big mod teams or new mod teams popup and make Arma 4 amazing? 

 

Worst case - we still have ARMA 2 (yes) and ARMA 3 and maybe DayZ engine to play with... As long as the game engine is moddable, ANYTHING is possible.

 

Look at how ARMA 3 become a great milsim but modders made great mods like RHS, Cup, Cytech, Ravage and incredible cDLC?! 

 

As long as the engine is open and has a great framework, it (eventually) can be wonderful!

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12 hours ago, B_Fox said:

I'm just a obsolete player? What if my niche is getting increasingly smaller and smaller and i just don't know it yet?

Oh, I've been seeing this sentiment pop up every now and then around here since ~2007 and yet, here we are, still. A bit of a setup period at the moment but that's nothing new for us, right? We know that good things take time to achieve and hard work is always rewarded. Just look at the fanfare for that Cinematic & VFX Tutorial? Btw, kudos to that Vladimir fella presenting. That cool, older brother/uncle vibe worked pretty well and the cross was a refreshing nod to the one that makes it all happen. It came across genuine and slick ...in a Slavic way. 🙂

 

12 hours ago, B_Fox said:

Arma 4 might be more squad than Arma, more MP focused than SP focused. Maybe because that has always been the end goal.

Maybe everyone but a small few want that. The world has changed but we've remained the same.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. DICE for example, went with "the world" and look where that got them. One disaster after another. People make these games, not some brand or corporation, so as long as they stay on the path and create for them and their customers, supporters and most importantly, friends. Is that not what we are? You have to look very hard to find this kind of relationship any more. Sure, the interaction is not as casual as it used to be say, 15 years ago but it's still there, just more on the listening side. Things tended to get blown out of proportion on some occasions and in the day of very aggressive social media and professional outrage, one needs to be more careful. For now.

 

If you look at situation from perspective of what Reforger is and what it means for Arma 4, then same goes. It was explained what it serves for and where it's heading in terms of feature sets. Besides, by the time Arma 4 is showing it's form, I am more then certain we will let our opinion be very well known. We'll make it work. Together, like always.

 

And if somehow, for some reason not, then see @Valken's reply. East Wind was simply exquisite though and a great leap in many aspects. I have a tough time imagining their next campaign will be anything short of spectacular. Just keep playing on your strengths, history and wisdom guys. After all, we've been around here for a while now, in terms of forums and otherwise.

 

Therefore, Godspeed to you my Slavic brethren and friends around the globe!

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I certainly don't like Reforger's design choices with not having an editor on day one (no, Workbench does not count) and lacking content both for the sandbox and in the SP side of things, but it's not a surprise considering what it's supposed to be. I think Genesis' doom & gloom about it being the same for Arma 4 is a bit overblown in that regard...at least for now anyway.

 

17 hours ago, B_Fox said:

Arma 4 might be more squad than Arma, more MP focused than SP focused. Maybe because that has always been the end goal.

 

Not all hope is lost TBH. Even though it still has bugs and got abandoned not long after release with the excuse of being an "experiment", Old Man showed that BI is willing to devote some amount of time* into making fresh SP content that aren't generic Operation Arrowhead-style campaigns.

 

(*) And effort too! It shows that BI has learnt something from trainwrecks like Manhattan.

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On 9/25/2022 at 5:15 AM, Valken said:

What if the big mod teams or new mod teams popup and make Arma 4 amazing?  

 

Worst case - we still have ARMA 2 (yes) and ARMA 3 and maybe DayZ engine to play with... As long as the game engine is moddable, ANYTHING is possible.

 

Look at how ARMA 3 become a great milsim but modders made great mods like RHS, Cup, Cytech, Ravage and incredible cDLC?! 

 

As long as the engine is open and has a great framework, it (eventually) can be wonderful!

Modders are the only thing that keep Arma alive, so i have no doubt that as long as Arma attracts skilled,devoted people Arma 4 will be a awesomely modded game. Even tho genesis complained that a lot of the deeper aspects of the game is locked away which hampers the true abillity for modders to take the game to that next level. But at least it still benefits from the devs wanted the game to be modded.
And CDLC  has been a bit of a hit and miss kinda thing. GM was alright, SOG was great, CSLA was disaster. But the overall concept of CDLC interesting.

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On 9/25/2022 at 3:20 PM, Janez said:

I wouldn't worry too much about that. DICE for example, went with "the world" and look where that got them. One disaster after another. People make these games, not some brand or corporation, so as long as they stay on the path and create for them and their customers, supporters and most importantly, friends. Is that not what we are? You have to look very hard to find this kind of relationship any more. Sure, the interaction is not as casual as it used to be say, 15 years ago but it's still there, just more on the listening side. Things tended to get blown out of proportion on some occasions and in the day of very aggressive social media and professional outrage, one needs to be more careful. For now. 

One of the best strategy games I've played is Graviteam Tactics and if anyone has been on the forums for that game they can tell you that Andrey (the game dev) is stubborn, can be rude and does not bow to pressure. If you suggest something that he doesn't like or he feels doesn't belong in the game he will tell you what he things of you "fanciful" idea. But Andrey and the team work towards a clear vision of what they want their game to be and improve the game megabyte by megabyte.
All that to say yes I know people make games, but sometimes staying on this path of improvement is hard and thats why I named the thread what I did instead of naming it something rough like, Arma 4 is going to be trash. Arma 4 will be whatever the devs want. So if the dev team decides to follow a trend of making the game more accessible (which may not be a bad thing) instead of this hardcore, mil sim, with clunky controls but radical AI then the community's job is to fill that void. But again that kind of logic may not be to everyone's liking and some will just get tired and leave.

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1 minute ago, B_Fox said:

One of the best strategy games I've played is Graviteam Tactics and if anyone has been on the forums for that game they can tell you that Andrey (the game dev) is stubborn, can be rude and does not bow to pressure. If you suggest something that he doesn't like or he feels doesn't belong in the game he will tell you what he things of you "fanciful" idea. But Andrey and the team work towards a clear vision of what they want their game to be and improve the game megabyte by megabyte.

 

Hey I know that guy -I got into it with him about AI not engaging each other at point blank range. He really went on the offensive against me telling me how "this is not some simple first Person Shooter FSM". Went on a back and forth for a while yet he never relented but the next update had an updated algorithm for AI in immediate proximity  😉

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On 9/25/2022 at 8:16 PM, drebin052 said:

I think Genesis' doom & gloom about it being the same for Arma 4 is a bit overblown in that regard...at least for now anyway.

I don't think Genesis was all that doomy and gloomy tbh. I've seen worse on these forums when Apex come out. Even before that people complained that all the factions used the same static weapons, CSAT helmet was stupid, Arma 3 is a game while Arma 2 was a real sim. And that with the right ai mods the ai in Arma2 still outmatches Arma 3.


I somewhat agree with this sentiment Arma 3 feels faster, sleeker, easier, better. While Arma 2 feels awkward, rough, bulky, instead of some well trained solder you feel... fat, you feel inexperienced, you have to fumble around to pull out your grenades, a short jog and you're fat ass is winded, the rifle only good for general area suppression at that point. Since also deaths had animations mods that made the player or ai go unconscious had an effect of paranoia, "Is that guy dead or just wounded?" The town construction set, ambient animals, ambient vehicles, ambient people meant provided a easy way to populate a mission area and with integrated AI civ questioning it lent itself well to COIN/irregular forces gameplay. (imo at least) Arma 2 was more focused around that sort of "fat ass, not so special forces, is that a rock or a grenade!" realism you would find in our own world.

But I wouldn't recommend Arma 2 to a friend who is now starting out. Arma 3 is just a better game easier to play, to edit, to mod, easier  to spectate AI, etc.


All that to say Arma 2 is like making all nature juice, you have to find a fruit tree, then find a way to get the fruit down, then clean, cut and prepare, then maybe strain out the pulp, then sweeten with sugar. While Arma 3 is a pack of Tang, toss it into water and your done!

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On 9/27/2022 at 9:24 PM, B_Fox said:

While Arma 2 feels awkward, rough, bulky, instead of some well trained solder you feel...

"Negative mouse acceleration" and input lag in general combined with poor performance. 😄

 

I give you credit for all that poetic framing but for real, that kind of shit was intolerable and just an unfortunate reality of that time period.

 

 

On 9/27/2022 at 9:24 PM, B_Fox said:

All that to say Arma 2 is like making all nature juice, you have to find a fruit tree, then find a way to get the fruit down, then clean, cut and prepare, then maybe strain out the pulp, then sweeten with sugar.

Except if you'd do that you wouldn't need sugar at all, you'd probably have had to dilute it with water but I forgive you for forgetting how real fruit tastes like in an age of great excess and at the same time inability to buy actual food in the stores. 😉

 

Quote

While Arma 3 is a pack of Tang, toss it into water and your done!

I suppose that would depend on how natural that Tang you speak of is. I imagine not very much, so I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment. Might be that people are confusing the feelings of Arma 2's grey filter with all sorts of mechanics.

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5 hours ago, Janez said:

I suppose that would depend on how natural that Tang you speak of is. I imagine not very much, so I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment. Might be that people are confusing the feelings of Arma 2's grey filter with all sorts of mechanics.

I did say Arma 3 was the better game after all.

 

5 hours ago, Janez said:

I give you credit for all that poetic framing but for real, that kind of shit was intolerable and just an unfortunate reality of that time period.

Thank you, thank you, i try😉
 

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9 hours ago, Fat Tire Bikes said:

If you were disappointed with Arma 4, don't worry! There are many other great games available for PC gaming. Here is a list of the best PC games released in 2017 according to Metacritic:
PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds (PUBG) - 87% Battlefield 1 - 90% Deus Ex: Mankind Divided - 93% Grand Theft Auto V – 98% Metal Gear Solid 5 – 95%.

Sure but Arma is my jam. Just because you criticize something doesn't mean you hate it, sometimes you criticize it cause you love it so much and would like to see it be better. Its like watching those VBS videos and getting shown all those interesting features that could be in Arma but isn't. And didn't the guy who made PUBG get his start in Arma🤔
This problem isn't unique to Arma. I play warthunder and there are a lot of things that are disappointing/frustrating in that game but I still play it and enjoy it.

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Again I'm not here to say Arma 4 is going to be trash. I understand that Arma is a complex game trying to simulate things that sometimes can't even be simulated by dedicated sims. Thats why the thread name is what it is. What if Arma 4 comes out and its the best god damn infantry simulator ever. It can simulate battalion level combat but also still be a first/third person shooter with great gun play and really good ai that can sweep through buildings, deploy static weapons and use all the in game stances, first aid, etc,etc. But the only problem you can't mod in anything other than camo's and weapons and custom made buildings. No vehicles, no new ai, no new buildings, etc, etc. We got the game we wanted but at what cost.

I've played games like this made by that dev team I mentioned earlier, Graviteam. Steel Armor Blaze Of War was such a game but even the most die hard fans including those crazy Russians and Ukrainians gave up modding it. Stating it was too difficult, mod tool documentations were lacking, the devs where unhelpful.

And thats why Arma 3 could sell for 10years straight.

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1 hour ago, B_Fox said:

This problem isn't unique to Arma. I play warthunder and there are a lot of things that are disappointing/frustrating in that game but I still play it and enjoy it.

Yup all good points, Arma itself is the same, why we play with mods, to add, tweak, change and or upgrade things.

I think Arma 4 will be awesome considering it should be the major overhaul upgraded version hopefully with some

decent content at the start of Reforger. 

 

    Been playing Arma Reforger quite a bit recently, i dont play the online, i like to setup situations with the game master

where an area is being defended or invaded, i like to practice various tactics of CQB and MOUT where whole squads try to get me

when im in a large house or an area i occupy.

     I find the movement, and the gameplay overall alot more efficient in some respects then Arma 3's there are trade offs, they both have their

pluses and minuses, but as per the title of the thread, if Arma 4 were to never happen, then well we do have Reforger so then you'll need

to add that in there too that means no Reforger too.

 

     Because Reforger is the testbed for Arma 4, so you cant have the one and not the other based on the current situation.

Again as per title i'd keep doing what i been doing, mods, scripts, missions, compilation lists, recording videos every week for the community.

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