Magnets

[Harnu 0]

At school we started talking about some ways to get cleaner energy. I thought of a way to keep a cylindrical object moving. That way it can keep spinning, like a windmill, just without the wind.

Sort of a problem. It involves magnets. And there's something that can really mess this up. Two magnets of the same charge push away from eachother, obviously.

In order for it to work, the magnets have to pass over eachother before the push is necessary. The thing is, how can you stop the push. What can you use? I would use a metal, but that means the magnet grasps to that. Thus the full force of the magnet can't be aimed forward.

I was thinking of wood, but for a powerful magnet, that would take a lot of wood. Maybe rubber? Does anyone know of a good material for this?

And for the fun of it, let's throw all our wacked out ideas for new energy in here.

BTW, I'm posting this now cuase I noticed this under the off topic forum:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(about military, politics, science, other military games and similiar topics loosely related to the game)<span id='postcolor'>

[Mister Frag 0]

Sounds like you are hard at work on a perpetual motion machine...

[Harnu 0]

I've got some spare time  

And I remember seeing on "Junkyardwars" they made a crossbow thingie to launch a football.

They needed a lot of tension for it to pull back.  But the guy was pulling the chain and it was nice and easy.  But it was building the tension.  Hows that work?

And I'll try and get some pics up of my crazy idea

[Harnu 0]

Here's a wee little sketch so you see what I mean.

Machine

The magnet pushed it around a bit, then another 2 magnets push, then another two, so on and so on.

The sketch wouldnm't work that well, everything needs to be offset, but I figure you'd get the general picture.

So you see where I would need something to stop the push of it until the right time.

[FSPilot 0]

Hmmm. That might not work. The two magnets would just find an equilibrium between the force of the spring and the force of the magnet.

[Harnu 0]

que?

[rwryne 0]

why not make an electro magnet that activates at a certain point and deactivates at another (Uses some energy but might produce more)

[Itchy 0]

One problem...you can't create energy, only convert it from one form to another.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Feb. 21 2003,01:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sounds like you are hard at work on a perpetual motion machine...  <span id='postcolor'>

ah yes the holy grail

I tried inventing a few of those ages ago one of them was having 2 generators power each other but unless it was operating at absolute zerro and was using frictionless materials it would eventually stop due to small energy losses i also thought of some pump device using magnets but ran into some difficulties

harnu have u built one yet? maybe u could get round it by positioning the magnets slightly so it doesn`t jam when it goes round?

ps,if matter can be converted into energy how do u get energy back into matter?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 21 2003,07:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">que?<span id='postcolor'>

lol, ok.  Say the two magnets simply not wanting to be near each other due to their nature develops 10 units of power.  I don't have a physics textbook on hand so I'm not going to go into the names and junk, it's easier this way anyway.  Also say that the spring hsa the capability of developing 10 units of power due to its elasticity, its springiness.  When the second magnet is pushed away from the first magnet with 10 units of power it's going to be pushed down into the spring.  Since the second magnet is getting further and further away from the first one it's not being pushed as much by the magnet, at the same time as the second magnet gets closer and closer to the base of the spring the spring's force against the magnet grows.  As a matter of fact, it's eventually being pushed more by the spring than it is by the magnet.  So it's going to slow down and go back in the other direction, towards the first magnet.

Now that's not to say that the magnet isn't pushing it at all, it still is.  But the force of the spring overcame the force of the magnet and pushed it in the opposite direction.  So now it's getting closer and closer to the magnet which is going to push it away again.  The closer the magnets get together, the more it's going to be pushed away.  As the two magnets get close enough their force will be great enough to overcome the spring... again. So it'll go back down until the spring pushes it back in the other direction.

This will go back and forth for a little while, but it will eventually stop.  The magnet is eventually going to have an equal force pushing it in both directions, so it's going to stay put. It's going to be close enough to the magnet to develop the power it needs to cancel out the spring's power.

Comprende, seńor?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Feb. 21 2003,05:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ps,if matter can be converted into energy how do u get energy back into matter?<span id='postcolor'>

Black holes radiate particles by an energy to matter conversion according to Hawkings.

[der bastler 0]

Imho it's easier to develop a cold-fusion reactor than to construct a perpetuum mobile...

As said before, you can only convert one energie form into another:

solar radiation -> kinetic energy (wind) -> kinetic energy (winmill) -> electric energy (generator)

combustion (heat) -> kinetic energy (steam) -> kinetic energy (piston,conrod,wheel)

If you want clean energy, create an easy-to-handle-not-high-explosive hydrogenium storage tank (perhaps something involving buckyballs?). Or solar cells with higher efficiency (>10%; perhaps something chlorophyll-based?).

Or an ethanol-generator based on algae and sunlight. Regarding cars: gasoline can be replaced by ethanol, there are only minor changes necessary (fuel pipes, ignition, catalytic converter). Overall pollutant is lower compared to gasoline -if you create ethanol using solar energy, the energy balance is even better. Biggest advantage: you can use your old car (not everyone has the money to buy a brand-new car) while reducing exhaust gas emissions.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Comprende, seńor? <span id='postcolor'>

Nada

Well I do, sorta.

If I understand you right you're saying:

The spring with push the magnet back via curve leading to the second magnet.

This would be true if it were made symmetrically. Ofsetting the magnets could fix that. (My sketch isn't exact, just wanted it for an idea of how it would look).

The first 2 magnets push away from each other. That spins the whone inner tube. Now, once it gets far enough away and looses it 'umph, that's when the other magnets kick in.

The first one pushes it say an 1/8 of a turn. That pushes it enough for one of the other magnets to reach over the "ramp's" that lead to the next magnet. Then those two magnets push, say another 1/8 of a turn. And that leads the third magnet to push off of another one. Then the first one reaches another magnet again, pushes, so on and so forth.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">why not make an electro magnet that activates at a certain point and deactivates at another (Uses some energy but might produce more) <span id='postcolor'>

I was thinking about that. But I want to get the bast concepts down first.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One problem...you can't create energy, only convert it from one form to another. <span id='postcolor'>

We take energy we already have. Store some. Use that to jump start the machines. Then the machines make enegery to power themselves (If electro-magnets are used), and other things.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ps,if matter can be converted into energy how do u get energy back into matter? <span id='postcolor'>

Essentially matter isn't made into enrgy. We use matter to make movement, to make energy.

[der bastler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 21 2003,22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One problem...you can't create energy, only convert it from one form to another. <span id='postcolor'>

We take energy we already have.  Store some.  Use that to jump start the machines.  Then the machines make enegery to power themselves (If electro-magnets are used), and other things.<span id='postcolor'>

Again: that's not possible!

First fundamental theorem of thermodynamics:

"In a closed system the total amount of energy is constant. The different forms of energy can be converted into each other inside the system"

Helmholtz, 1847, not vitiated to date

Second fundamental theorem of thermodynamics:

"Heat doesn't change from a cold body to a warm body without external influence (energy, work)"

Clausius, 1850, not vitiated to date

Especially the first fundamental theorem helps us to calculate the equation of motion of mechanical (multi body) sytems -using Lagrange's equations, you get an exact result. The theorem is an old theorem of experience, it can't be proved and it exists unvitiated for more than 150 years. We can assume that it's true.

btw: In 1775 the french academy of science decided not to accept any requests of perpetuum-mobile-inventors.

[Harnu 0]

Okay, take a wind turbine for instance.

When it spins, the mechanisms inside move and it all resutlts in the creation of energy.

Now you take that enegery, store it. I.E. a Battery.

You connect that battery to the power for the electro-magnet. Why is that so impossible?

[Llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,01:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, take a wind turbine for instance.

When it spins, the mechanisms inside move and it all resutlts in the creation of energy.

Now you take that enegery, store it.  I.E. a Battery.

You connect that battery to the power for the electro-magnet.  Why is that so impossible?<span id='postcolor'>

You will use at the best the equal amount of energy to make it move as the electro magnets consume.

But the the machine will produce heat which is a form of energy, sound which is movement=energy, light=energy etc...

You cant make something produce more energy then it consumes.

This is the most elementary in physics.

[Harnu 0]

So I use normal magnets. YOu just need a way to restrict magnets into putting all force towards one thing. Or, alteast partial force.

[Llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,02:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So I use normal magnets.  YOu just need a way to restrict magnets into putting all force towards one thing.  Or, alteast partial force.<span id='postcolor'>

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/inside-motor.htm

Accept it.. You cant make an engine create energy from nowhere.

We have plenty of wind which we should use to produce energy. The wind gets it's energy from the sun which get's its energy from fusion.

[Harnu 0]

But then I ask, would my design at least spin?

[Llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But then I ask, would my design at least spin?<span id='postcolor'>

No.. not unless you add some sort of energy

[Harnu 0]

Then why wouldn't it? Why aren't the normal magnets enough to push it?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,01:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, take a wind turbine for instance.

When it spins, the mechanisms inside move and it all resutlts in the creation of energy.<span id='postcolor'>

It doesn't create energy in any way. It transforms the kinetic energy of the air molecules into potential energy in the induction coils of the turbine.

[Llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,02:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then why wouldn't it?  Why aren't the normal magnets enough to push it?<span id='postcolor'>

You could make the machine spinn 180 degrees but it would require more energy to move it away from that position than the small spinn produced

Edit: 180 degrees if you use one big magnet on the coil

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Feb. 22 2003,02:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,02:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then why wouldn't it?  Why aren't the normal magnets enough to push it?<span id='postcolor'>

You could make the machine spinn 90 degrees but it would require more energy to move it away from that position than the small spinn produced<span id='postcolor'>

why only 45 degrees? Why would it take so much more energy?