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Robots rule!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 25 2003,04:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WHAT'S it all FOR??    I don't see the need for any of this  "technology", machines, cellphones, and gadgets.   They're all the same.<span id='postcolor'>

I am curious, where do you draw your limit? Robots? Computers? Electricity? The wheel?

Is there any technological era that you would like us to go back to or are you advocating that we should be animals living in the forrest?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of these ancient civilizations were more advanced than we are today. Most of their ways have been lost. The Mayans(or another group) even developed ways of doing brain surgery.

Not only that, I think the Mayans had the MOST advenced road system ever.

<span id='postcolor'>

The Mayas died out which shows that their civilization wasn't all that successful.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 25 2003,11:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Mayas died out which shows that their civilization wasn't all that successful.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, we killed them and took their gold. biggrin.gif

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a few things

What was this super scalpel these ancients had and how was it produced.

The internet now is just a few small clusters of interesting or useful information,most of its just one big advertisment billboard with products only available to ppl with plastic.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Mayas died out which shows that their civilization wasn't all that successful.<span id='postcolor'>

it really depends on how they died out though.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am curious, where do you draw your limit? Robots? Computers? Electricity? The wheel?

Is there any technological era that you would like us to go back to or are you advocating that we should be animals living in the forrest?<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir...that was exactly what I was thinking. hehe

Without any technology...we would just be a bunch of naked animals. Using a leaf to cover yourself could even be considered technolgy....unless it just happened to fall there...in which case I guess that would be natural.

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IceFire, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say by giving us 1000 year old examples of the very thing you're so opposed to.

Ok look, my example using the ancient civilizations is not my main point.  I was just throwing up that as a side note as to how we do NOT have to be soo technologically advanced to live a healthy life,  for those of you who are so proud of all our "accomplishments".

Denoir, my main problem is with electricity.   I hate electronics, and advancement.  

I believe that electricity is the cause of all this technology happening these days.    

Ben Franklin is spinning in his grave.   Not because of what our society has become.  But because of the realisation of something he should never have discovered(much like the atom bomb).

Hold on,  ... I need to go back and look at your posts(there have been many since I last checked) to see if I have missed any points.

I'll be right back.

Oh and Renegade, believe it or not, that "super scalpel" was made by prehistoric man, and is still the sharpest cutting point invented.

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Also, in a previous post I already explained why I don't trust computers or those who work with computers.

For similar reasons I do not trust much of the "technological world".

Does noone here find the idea of even attempting to make a robot dog, .... troubling?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 25 2003,23:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does noone here find the idea of even attempting to make a robot dog, .... troubling?<span id='postcolor'>

Not at all. A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to play around with an AIBO robotic dog for a couple of weeks at work. They have still a long way to go, but I had much fun with it.

The AIBO has a little pink ball that it likes to play with. I figured out that it was the color it reacted to, so I put a number of pink post-it notes on the nearest wall. And sure enough the dog ran towards them and hit the wall with his head. He did so a number of times. After that, each time I would show him his pink ball, he would run away. smile.gif

As I said, there is lot more to be done in that field, but even now we have some fun stuff.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 25 2003,23wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, in a previous post I already explained why I don't trust computers or those who work with computers.

For similar reasons I do not trust much of the "technological world".

Does noone here find the idea of even attempting to make a robot dog, .... troubling?<span id='postcolor'>

I'm surprized that in our day of age there are people in our modern society who view computers as some sort of evil black magic  <!--emo&confused.gif Seems like a case of fearing what you don't understand, but if so, why not trying to learn more about it? I'm studying Computer Engineering, I guess that means you shouldn't trust me? wink.gif. As for the Robot dogs, I find them cool, but I find their price disturbing....but much more disturbing than that even, is when my roomate's cat decides she likes some of my belongings and "marks" them as her own tounge.gif.

*edit*

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

As for me not trusting engineers and computer people ... well actually I don't.

These computer people are very sick people.   They love their precious computers more than other human beings.   I don't trust their motives.

There was this one obnoxious computer help guy in my university.  Whenever I came to him for help he would look at me like I was some sort of dumbass neanderthal who wasn't worth his "computer expertise".

I sometimes overhear these computer geeks talking.  They make jokes about all the "stupid questions" they get from people who have computer problems.  They think they're so great and better.  They probably want to become a computer and live in a computer world if they had that choice.

I think they're just jealous that normal people actually have real lives, and that the only lives they know(computers) are things most people arn't interested in.

So they have to segregate themselves from normal healthy people and they live in their basements in some dungeon toiling away at their monstrous electronic creations cursing all the "cool" kids from HighSchool because they are just to stupid to know how to make any freinds.

Technology, ech ...      I fear the day these computer people control everything.    We should put a stop to this "technology advancement".

<span id='postcolor'>

One of the dumbest generalizations I've ever heard  confused.gif. I find computers interesting,, and I enjoy programming....(and yes, occasionally hate it when it dosen't quite work out wink.gif )that dosen't mean I want to be a computer or that my entire life revolves around them! (ok, so in the next couple of years it kind of does, but that's true for any subject of any college student biggrin.gif )In high school I took a lot of computer courses, but I was also on the wrestling team and in a club that raised money for cancer patients. I enjoy going out on weekends and boozing it up with friends as much as anyone else....in short...you don't know what you're talking about.

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Hey Denior...

I was just wondering... Did the AIBO have any trouble with running into any other obstacles (besides the post-its, hehe), because from what ive learned it doesnt have perhipheral vision (unlike sony's newest creation)...so it should see everything flat. Also...its come down in price quite a bit...was wondering if its something worth owning...

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 25 2003,23:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the Robot dogs, I find them cool, but I find their price disturbing....<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, but their price is nothing compared to the price of those new small Sony humanoid robots 70,000 €  wow.gif

One interesting thing on the subject of human interaction with technology:

A collegue of mine bought a Sony dog a while ago. He has a two year old daughter and he says that she is really interacting with the robotic dog as if it was a real pet. He tells that she really loves it and that they truly interact with each other.

That's amazing to me. When I see such a "creature", I see motors and sensors while that little kid, free of all prejudice and technical knowledge views it as a playmate and friend. I think that shows very much how relative things are. If we are allowed to form our own opinions with no prior prejudice that we are able to form real relationships with technology.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was just wondering... Did the AIBO have any trouble with running into any other obstacles (besides the post-its, hehe), because from what ive learned it doesnt have perhipheral vision (unlike sony's newest creation)...so it should see everything flat. Also...its come down in price quite a bit...was wondering if its something worth owning... <span id='postcolor'>

It has grave problems with stairs: it falls down them. And no, I wouldn't buy one myself. While it is a fun toy, it's still pretty limited and the price tag is still a bit too high. In a couple of years when they are developed further perhap..

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 25 2003,23:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 25 2003,23:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the Robot dogs, I find them cool, but I find their price disturbing....<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, but their price is nothing compared to the price of those new small Sony humanoid robots 70,000 €  wow.gif

One interesting thing on the subject of human interaction with technology:

A collegue of mine bought a Sony dog a while ago. He has a two year old daughter and he says that she is really interacting with the robotic dog as if it was a real pet. He tells that she really loves it and that they truly interact with each other.

That's amazing to me. When I see such a "creature", I see motors and sensors while that little kid, free of all prejudice and technical knowledge views it as a playmate and friend. I think that shows very much how relative things are. If we are allowed to form our own opinions with no prior prejudice that we are able to form real relationships with technology.<span id='postcolor'>

All that is VERY VERY unsettling, disturbing,  and even creepy to me.  

What that little girl didn't take into account is that the "robot dog" is not alive.  Has no emotions.  Has no awareness.  

The true twistedness of these things show themselves when people start to have or feel that they have "real relationships" with them.   And want to make them more human or lifelike.

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Well...

...you hate everything related or connected to electricity. But why for god's sake did you buy such a beast-pc* and write many, many posts in an electronic world (i.e. internet) using such a devilish electronic computing machine you don't trust?

[if I would write this reply in a certain forum (i.e. heise.de), I'd continue with "Don't feed the trolls!". But I'm not sure if that'd be advisiable right now...?]

*(Mentioned in another thread. I assume you don't use such heretical things like MATLAB/SIMULINK, C++, LaTeX etc.? It's only for games, right?)

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wow.gif4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 26 2003,00wow.gif4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 25 2003,23:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 25 2003,23:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the Robot dogs, I find them cool, but I find their price disturbing....<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, but their price is nothing compared to the price of those new small Sony humanoid robots 70,000 €  wow.gif

One interesting thing on the subject of human interaction with technology:

A collegue of mine bought a Sony dog a while ago. He has a two year old daughter and he says that she is really interacting with the robotic dog as if it was a real pet. He tells that she really loves it and that they truly interact with each other.

That's amazing to me. When I see such a "creature", I see motors and sensors while that little kid, free of all prejudice and technical knowledge views it as a playmate and friend. I think that shows very much how relative things are. If we are allowed to form our own opinions with no prior prejudice that we are able to form real relationships with technology.<span id='postcolor'>

All that is VERY VERY unsettling, disturbing,  and even creepy to me.  

What that little girl didn't take into account is that the "robot dog" is not alive.  Has no emotions.  Has no awareness.  

The true twistedness of these things show themselves when people start to have or feel that they have "real relationships" with them.   And want to make them more human or lifelike.<span id='postcolor'>

there is more concern and chance about a real dog biting a child than a robot dog, w/ A.I. its also not a good idea to have dogs around little kids to begin w/

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RedOct, that's why you need to make sure that your dog is comfortable with children, and that he is well behaved.

Far too often I see dog owners who don't know anything about caring for a dog other than spanking the dog with a newspaper when it misbehaves.

I have lived with many dogs, and am surprised at how little many people looking to buy dogs really get to try to get to know their dog or puppy's personality before buying. You should always try to buy one from a breeder who should know everything about his history.

If you know about dogs, and have one that you trained well and everything, you shouln't worry about how he treats children or even babies. But you should make sure he is properly social, does not have any hangups about children, have a good personality ..etc.

And Der Bastler, I addressed your point in an earlier post in this thread.

Hold on, let me find it.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 22 2003,04:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am VERY against the idea of creating robots.

The fact that we have computers and electronics(I only really support inventions that are purely mechanical in nature) is bad enough, but now ROBOTs???

I don't understand people who keep wanting more and more technology.   If anything we should be trying to limit the advance of technology, and focusing on gradually eliminating technology.    

Yes yes, I know I am contradicting myself by using this computer and internet.  Unfortunately it's kind of necessary for me right now being that I need to study and do research.   Maybe in a few years when I am done studying, and am stabilized I will completely stop using computers and the internet.

I could go on and on about how terrible this is, but I didn't sleep very well last night and I am kindof drowsy right now.<span id='postcolor'>

Here is that post which explains why I am even here using a computer.

Fortunately in the future when I am stabilized with a job, I can finally rid myself of all of this.

*Sigh* Right now I might as well use it as much as I can while I have to.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 26 2003,00:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What that little girl didn't take into account is that the "robot dog" is not alive.  Has no emotions.  Has no awareness.  

The true twistedness of these things show themselves when people start to have or feel that they have "real relationships" with them.   And want to make them more human or lifelike.<span id='postcolor'>

And we will sooner or later reach a point where you won't be able to differentiate between biological intelligence and machine intlligence. We are very far from that point but we are going into that direction. And there should be no problem with that. After all, we humans are advanced biological machines. Does it matter if the neurons are made from wetware or if they are made from silicon? IMO there is no difference if you get the same output from both. When the point comes when you can't differentiate between a conversation with a computer and a human being then it's no longer relevant what they are made from.

You of all people should welcome this development, IceFire. Machines are going from technically obscure devices to intuitive things that interface with humans in a for us natural way.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I assume you don't use such heretical things like MATLAB/SIMULINK, C++, <span id='postcolor'>

Hehe, well go ahead and burn me at the stakes! I couldn't live without Matlab smile.gif

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That's exactly my fear.

The main difference is we exist(or what I mean is that we have awareness), and they don't.

How would you feel if one day you realized that everyone in your life was just a robot, programed to do everything they do.  With NO self awareness.  And you were the last human left?  

All of a sudden, all these smiling faces, all the hugs and kisses, and girls you've slept with.   It was all meaningless.   They are just machines, you couln't even tell.

They had no existence, no idea that you were even there.  Nothing, you just thought they did.

The whole time you were all alone.

NO!  I never want to "interact" with a machine(that just appears to be a real person).   And the fact that one day I might, and would at the time actually consider it a "person", a real "human encounter", and not even be aware of it is terrifying to me.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 26 2003,00:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The main difference is we exist(or what I mean is that we have awareness), and they don't.<span id='postcolor'>

How do you know what awareness is and that machines one day can't have it? I am certain that self-awareness will be developed. There are even now very promising results in the field of AI on exploring what awareness is and how it can be synthisized through software.

Now I can understand if your objections are from a religious point of view. From a scientific point of view however, there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to make self-aware machines that are just aware of their existance as you or me.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 26 2003,00:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RedOct,  that's why you need to make sure that your dog is comfortable with children, and that he is well behaved.

Far too often I see dog owners who don't know anything about caring for a dog other than spanking the dog with a newspaper when it misbehaves.

I have lived with many dogs, and am surprised at how little many people looking to buy dogs really get to try to get to know their dog or puppy's personality before buying.   You should always try to buy one from a breeder who should know everything about his history.

If you know about dogs, and have one that you trained well and everything, you shouln't worry about how he treats children or even babies.   But you should make sure he is properly social, does not have any hangups about children, have a good personality ..etc.

And Der Bastler, I addressed your point in an earlier post in this thread.

Hold on, let me find it.<span id='postcolor'>

it doesnt matter how well trained the dog is. there are countless posiblilities to what could lead a dog to attack a child. from the child playing a little too ruff w/ the dog, or sometimes the dog will bite a child when he or she comes to pet the dog when its eating. you can train a rotryler all you like, it doesnt mean it isn't capable of harming somebody. a brother and law of mine had one and it was very gental. than just out of the blue it groweled at his grandmother. robot dogs are just toys. they weren't intended to completely replace the dog or cat. robots are whats going to be used to find and destroy land mines by detonating themselves making shallow rivers, wood land safe for people and even animals. why would you feel so threatend by a robot doing such a thing? these people creat these kinds of robats have intentions to save lives w/ these machines that are expandable and affordable. if we didn't have this technology available, would you like to volenteer yourself to seeking out land mines, not completely certian where they are? i sure wouldn't.

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Ok, you mentioned a religious point of view.

Well, I don't know if I claim any particular religion. But my fear of this stems from the fact(by belief) that a human, and a human encounter is a real and sacred thing, that we should have no right to recreate.

The love between a man and woman is only possible between humans. And is a perfect reason why our humanity should not be recreated or imitated by mankind.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 26 2003,00:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hehe, well go ahead and burn me at the stakes! I couldn't live without Matlab smile.gif<span id='postcolor'>

That's right! Jacobi matrices, motion equations, Eigenvalues, control simulation without it? *shudders*

After pocket calculators programs like MATLAB/SIMULINK or ADAMS are the best inventions ever made!

IceFire, forgive me for causing harm and agony while asking stupid questions which kept you in front of your PC. Btw: Respectable post-count!

wink.gif

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RedOct, believe me. Dogs are not idiots. They understand that a baby is a baby. Ofcourse I wouln't just trust ANY dog with my kid.

They have personalities, just like us.

You make sure he is well adjusted and you train him well, and watch him. There are many responsible dogs that are trusted around children.

If you are going to create a "robot dog", atleast, .. Atleast make it look obvious that it is NOT A DOG.

Actually, such a thing should not be made at all. No dog better than a "robot dog".

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wow.gif3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (der bastler @ Feb. 26 2003,01wow.gif3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IceFire, forgive me for causing harm and agony while asking stupid questions which kept you in front of your PC. Btw: Respectable post-count!

wink.gif<span id='postcolor'>

What did you mean by that?   Look at my response to your last question on the bottom of page 9 here.

That is why I am on the computer.

What else is your question?

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Also, concerning my post count.

I have been on this forum for maybe a year or so,

And most of my posts on this forum are usually stupid technical questions or things of that sort.

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