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Robots rule!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 23 2003,01<!--emo&:0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't trust ANY of these damn machines.  You would trust these bizarre abominations to deal with these things over your fellow man??<span id='postcolor'>

You mean to say that you don't trust the engineers and programmers that have designed them.

Properly designed and implemented technology can be far more reliable in specific areas then fellow human beings can.

There is one type of technology that I don't trust and it's learning systems such as neural networks, genetic algorithms and reinforcement learning. I've worked a lot with them and I can conclude two things:

[*] There is no way of predicting if such a system will ever learn to solve the assigned problem

[*] They always choose the path of least resistance

I can't mention how many times I've been surprised when a neural network perfectly learned a complex model. And I can't mention how many times I've been surprised when a neural net refuses to learn a trivial model. Since these are complex parallel interconnected systems there is no way of predicting if and how learning occures. When they work, it's beautiful - they can solve very complex tasks. I've learned however not to trust them as a reliable solution since from time to time they fail completely and you have no clue why or how to fix it.

The second point is a frustrating one as well. It forces the designer to really think through all the possibilities. I'll give you an example.

The biped walker that I built last fall learned to walk through reinforcement learning. That is a method where good actions get a reward and bad actions get a punishment. The system then tries to act in that way so that it maximizes its reward and minimizes its punisment. Our way of implementing the punishment was to add crutches with pressure sensors to the robot. When it took a bad step, instead of falling, it landed on the crutches and got a punishment (detected by the pressure sensors). The first thing that bastard learned was that there was a sequence of moves it could do to fall down on the ground without pressing down the crutches. No crutches used - no punishment issued.

So what that damned thing learned first was to throw itself on the ground. That's far easier then learning to walk and since it got no punishment it considered it to be a very good solution.

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Computers have only been around for a century or so, do you really think we'd get it perfect by now smile.gif

Modern robots are also not evil, we've only really gotten to the point where we can make robots that do what we tell them and nothing more. A robot for painting a car at an assembly building does nothing but paint cars using the same movements that a person coded in over and over until it's turned off at the end of the day, and the next day will do those same movements all over again. Also, for every robot produced, you need people to assemble the robot, program the robot, service the robot, ect. So in a backwards kind of way, it actually creates jobs smile.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 23 2003,01: 02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, and Der Bastler,  I don't know what you are trying to imply??    Just because I don't understand them doesn't HAVE to be the reason I HATE them.    These things defy understanding anyways.    Only those creators of these damn machines can understand them.

Do YOU claim to understand all this technology out there??  Have you ever tried figuring out half the bizarre contraptions out there?   I don't think ANYONE can, nor should we trust them.<span id='postcolor'>

No, I do not claim to understand everything in the world -but I try. And I wrote "fear", not "hate"...

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Denoir, you mean robots can learn?confused.gif?    That's not something I am very comfortable with.

As for me not trusting engineers and computer people ... well actually I don't.

These computer people are very sick people.   They love their precious computers more than other human beings.   I don't trust their motives.

There was this one obnoxious computer help guy in my university.  Whenever I came to him for help he would look at me like I was some sort of dumbass neanderthal who wasn't worth his "computer expertise".

I sometimes overhear these computer geeks talking.  They make jokes about all the "stupid questions" they get from people who have computer problems.  They think they're so great and better.  They probably want to become a computer and live in a computer world if they had that choice.

I think they're just jealous that normal people actually have real lives, and that the only lives they know(computers) are things most people arn't interested in.

So they have to segregate themselves from normal healthy people and they live in their basements in some dungeon toiling away at their monstrous electronic creations cursing all the "cool" kids from HighSchool because they are just to stupid to know how to make any freinds.

Technology, ech ...      I fear the day these computer people control everything.    We should put a stop to this "technology advancement".

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 23 2003,02:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">toiling away at their monstrous electronic creations<span id='postcolor'>

Tell me, did a toaster bite you or something? Why all the epithets?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 23 2003,02:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So they have to segregate themselves from normal healthy people and they live in their basements in some dungeon toiling away at their monstrous electronic creations cursing all the "cool" kids from HighSchool because they are just to stupid to know how to make any freinds.

Technology, ech ...      I fear the day these computer people control everything.    We should put a stop to this "technology advancement".<span id='postcolor'>

Right, man! These guys are insane! Let's stop this weird stuff!

Let's stop and destroy everything we don't understand...

...reminds me of the middle ages btw...

...next on: witch burnings? Round up some computer geeks?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 23 2003,02:o3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is one type of technology that I don't trust and it's learning systems such as neural networks, genetic algorithms and reinforcement learning. I've worked a lot with them and I can conclude two things:

[*] There is no way of predicting if such a system will ever learn to solve the assigned problem

[*] They always choose the path of least resistance

I can't mention how many times I've been surprised when a neural network perfectly learned a complex model. And I can't mention how many times I've been surprised when a neural net refuses to learn a trivial model. Since these are complex parallel interconnected systems there is no way of predicting if and how learning occures. When they work, it's beautiful - they can solve very complex tasks. I've learned however not to trust them as a reliable solution since from time to time they fail completely and you have no clue why or how to fix it.

The second point is a frustrating one as well. It forces the designer to really think through all the possibilities. I'll give you an example.

The biped walker that I built last fall learned to walk through reinforcement learning. That is a method where good actions get a reward and bad actions get a punishment. The system then tries to act in that way so that it maximizes its reward and minimizes its punisment. Our way of implementing the punishment was to add crutches with pressure sensors to the robot. When it took a bad step, instead of falling, it landed on the crutches and got a punishment (detected by the pressure sensors). The first thing that bastard learned was that there was a sequence of moves it could do to fall down on the ground without pressing down the crutches. No crutches used - no punishment issued.

So what that damned thing learned first was to throw itself on the ground. That's far easier then learning to walk and since it got no punishment it considered it to be a very good solution.<span id='postcolor'>

Do you have kids? biggrin.gif

Seriously, to what extent can software write software that writes software that writes software etc. ?  I've always thought this to be at the core of AI development.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Feb. 23 2003,20:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you have kids? biggrin.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Nope smile.gif I assume you are refering to the reward/punishment? There is one interesting thing and that is that systems usually learn quicker if you only issue punishments. That might be interesting to apply on kids as well biggrin.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seriously, to what extent can software write software that writes software that writes software etc. ? I've always thought this to be at the core of AI development.<span id='postcolor'>

There are evolutionary algorithms that write software by trying to combine different blocks to perform a certain task. It's however a very small field in AI. The core of AI is software that is able to generalize without being explicitly programmed.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These animal people are very sick people. They love their precious animals more than other human beings. I don't trust their motives<span id='postcolor'>

there that makes much more sense biggrin.gif

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How does that say animals??

I didn't type animals. It was supposed to say "computers".

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Yes i changed it slightly to make more sense as u come off sounding like the jackasses on servers who get their asses kicked then start being rude to everyone and calling ppl nerds for playing videogames without even realising their hypocrisy or maybe ur one of the dipshits who thought the cd-rom drive was a coffee holder when u first got a pc and were psychologicly traumitized by the tech guys laughing at ur stupidity wow.giftounge.gif

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For one, I take no offence to getting beaten at video games.

I get beaten at them sometimes.  That's not the kind of thing that hurts my dignity.

I havn't even been playing Operation Flashpoint for like a couple of months.    

Where the hell did I mention anything about video games?

I'm not a very big player of them.  Only Operation Flashpoint, and Americas Army now.  Because it's free.

And as for the rest of your post.   You sound like one of those arrogant computer people freaks who thinks they know everything.

So what if someone thought a cd thing was a cup holder.   That's not stupidity.   These things arn't very straight forward anyways.

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IceFire, I'm just curious, but what do you think about those weird genetic engineers, who meddle with the very essence of life in their secret, dimly lit labs? Those people that think they know everything about what makes us tick?

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Well, I've discussed that in a thread here before, and I'll state it again.

I think such things are HORRIBLE. Man has no right to play with the essence of humanity itself.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Feb. 22 2003,19:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When technology means unemployment, i strongly disagree with its usage.

<span id='postcolor'>

Avery interesting question.

what happens if there was no need for 90% to work because robots done everything?<span id='postcolor'>

I just got a phone call from work today telling me that my shift is canceled... forever, they said that they got machines to do the job for us. Till this date I thought machines would create jobs, they do! but only for the smart ones, and not everyone can learn as good as someone else could. And since technology will take over what will happen to all the people that aren't that smart as others, people that don't take university courses in high school...? Do you understand how much you need to know to make one of these machines/robots and future machines/robots? So yeah, almost 50 people just lost a job and maybe like 5 got one, 5 smart guys.... makes me wonder....

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Black Knight @ Feb. 24 2003,23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I just got a phone call from work today telling me that my shift is canceled... forever, they said that they got machines to do the job for us. Till this date I thought machines would create jobs, they do! but only for the smart ones, and not everyone can learn as good as someone else could. And since technology will take over what will happen to all the people that aren't that smart as others, people that don't take university courses in high school...? Do you understand how much you need to know to make one of these machines/robots and future machines/robots? So yeah, almost 50 people just lost a job and maybe like 5 got one, 5 smart guys.... makes me wonder....<span id='postcolor'>

Well, that is an issue but the problem isn't with the machines, but how we organize us. For instance in many European countries the standard work day has been reduced from 8 hours to 6 hours (without any reduction of pay of course). The issue at hand is that we must not allow corporations to rampage freely. Technological development should be for the benifit of all man kind, not just a way of making more profit.

I think however that we will adapt, just as we did after the industrial revolution.

That's probably not much comfort to you right now though... And one more thing - don't confuse education with intelligence. I am pretty certain that the level of education of average people will continue to rise. The focus will shift from production to development. That's very good. Why waste human intelligence on tasks that machines can perform just as well. It is a waste of resources.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 24 2003,22:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, I've discussed that in a thread here before, and I'll state it again.

I think such things are HORRIBLE.    Man has no right to play with the essence of humanity itself.<span id='postcolor'>

And why would humanity not have the right to touch their own biological essence? Just because one of the world's many religions claims their god is not very happy about it? Or just because you don't have the educational level to understand exactly how it works and thus are scared of it? confused.gif

As you seem to oppose any progress in technology you cannot visualize, do you refuse any medical attention more advanced than a bandaid? Why are you sitting behind a machine that works in much the same way as your own brain, talking to people through microscopic electrical signals reaching all over the world in mere seconds? Looking at a screen that's being bombarded with small particles, which form the essence of not just humans, but all matter!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These computer people are very sick people. They love their precious computers more than other human beings. I don't trust their motives.<span id='postcolor'>

Seriously, I somewhat hope for your sake you're just pulling our digital legs here. Otherwise your past experience with not-so-helpful "computer guy" has led to some serious paranoia issues on your side. Calling someone sick just because they understand things better than you do does not give much support to your credibility.

Looking down upon people that don't have your level of knowledge can be found in every place where people work. People simply need to be able to distinguish themselves from others, and often do so by means of their knowledge on certain matters. Talk to some one who's a big fan of birds (no hi-tech conspiracies there I think) and make some stupid remarks ("so that little green bird there is the Albatross?") and you'll get exactly the same response as you'd get off a computer geek when you ask him/her a (from their perspective) stupid question. Now the interesting things is: would you ask a computer such a question, you'd get the most helpful and respectful answer, and there would be no funny remarks made behind your back tounge.gif

Technology levels beyond the general level of comprehension have been a part of society for many centuries now, and they will be for quite a while to come. At least until the day our minds form one massive database of collective human knowledge. So in the end it’s only the technology itself that can take away the fear and bring understanding to the ones that had none smile.gif

Ok now that last bit probably left you with some terrifying images of human-integrated technology, so maybe just forget what I said there wink.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 24 2003,23:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think however that we will adapt, just as we did after the industrial revolution.

That's probably not much comfort to you right now though... And one more thing - don't confuse education with intelligence. I am pretty certain that the level of education of average people will continue to rise. The focus will shift from production to development. That's very good. Why waste human intelligence on tasks that machines can perform just as well. It is a waste of resources.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I guess it will somehow.... all we can do now is wait and see. But I love machines. It amazes me what people come up with these days, I also love programming but dropped out the third year when I realized that you need to be very good at calculus, which I wasn’t, The only reason I took it was because I wanted to program a game like OFP, I dreamed about something like this all my life. I used to draw planes of the landscape and stuff like that, but Bis beat me to it hehe, Programming was something I really enjoyed, but I don’t miss it that much since OFP came out wink.gif thanks Bis smile.gif . Getting a little off topic there, anyways, It would be a good idea if the human intelligence was used for something better, but how do we know what is better. The future of technology is growing faster and faster every year. How do we know if our job will last long enough? There is no way to tell, People these days are making some crazy stuff that leave everyone stunned > What? How? When?… some of the stuff they made or are making, 20 years ago we would of thought that it was not possible to make it and if it was, maybe like in 1000-10000 years from now. If you look back 200 years…. look how much we changed. It is a complete new world out there and all of it changed in “just 200 years†now that’s amazing if you ask me. Have you guys ever thought about it? How fast everything changed and still is, right before our eyes. It’s really interesting/cool when you think about it. I’m glad I live in a time like this, but I wish to see the world a 1000 years from now. Wouldn’t you? And about the schools. Since everything is changing so fast, we have to know more. This is not something anyone can learn in one day, people have never been taught fair, by fair I don’t mean the same. I mean if it takes a person 1 min. to learn something that takes another person to learn in 30 min. then this guy needs more time to be taught right? Btw, did you know that (I think it was) 1/3 of North America are dyslectic? With all this new technology, more advanced stuff must be learned and it can get pretty tough for some people…. Thankfully some teachers are spotting this and trying to do something about it. My future lies with aircraft maintenance but who know how long? I choose this because I thought it is something that is new and growing and hopefully will be used in the future and I love planes of coarse  smile.gif

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I CANNOT comprehend people who think like that!!

How is all this change good?? Sure we are soooo different from how we were 200 years ago. Is this all really better? I don't like the way we are going. You people talk about all this "advanced" technology.

WHAT'S it all FOR?? I don't see the need for any of this "technology", machines, cellphones, and gadgets. They're all the same.

Hundreds of years ago, there were the Incas and Mayans and American Indians, and the Egyptions.

Some of these ancient civilizations were more advanced than we are today. Most of their ways have been lost. The Mayans(or another group) even developed ways of doing brain surgery. All without the use of "technology". Just using their innovation. They had designed a surgical tool that had a tip that was a only molecule thick. The sharpest edge to date.

Currently "modern science" has created surgeons scalpels with edges a few molecules thick. Both pretty much equally effective, but it goes to show how "advanced" these people were WITHOUT the technology.

Not only that, I think the Mayans had the MOST advenced road system ever.

The lifestyle of the average ancient average Joe was surprisingly at a similar standard or better than the lives alot of us lead. Without all the pollution, chemicals, toxins, food poisioning, and processed food... etc. They had art, culture, literature, schools, medecine(alot of which were better than what we have today, unfortunately science still can't figure out how they did it) and so on ..

Sure we may have all these jets, and the internet. But how often do you really use either,(for good reason).

There is still these things called "libraries". I don't think the internet is that useful. Most of the time I find junk, not what I am looking for.

So you can't say all this technology is so great. Sure we are different than hundreds of years before. Now we have shiny metal gadgets that did the same things that they used their intelligence to do anyhow with some very sophisticated inventions.

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ICEFIRE...

Just using thier innovation...and not technology huh?  I was under the impression that technology was innovation.

That tool you talk of from the past, that was technolgy. Apparantly the best of that time. I'm sure there were people of that time acting like you saying that working on the brain was work of the devil and you should just let things play out without the use of "technology". Things ARE different now you are right....its called evolving.

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So it may have been "technology". I'm not supporting it.

I'm just stating why all this advancement and "evolution" is not nesessary. They did what they did as much as what we do with as little as they had.

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So would you say (whichever time period it may be) that someone should be left to die, instead of helping them with technology (whatever it may be)?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 25 2003,04:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WHAT'S it all FOR??    I don't see the need for any of this  "technology", machines, cellphones, and gadgets.   They're all the same.<span id='postcolor'>

What's it all for, you ask. If we just laid back and stopped all technological advancement i.e. cultural evolution, we would be just like any other species on Earth, since our capability for cultural evolution is the sole factor that makes us different from the other animals. And guess what, typical animal species has only a limited lifespan, before extinction of the whole species caused by the lack of capacity to adapt to new environmental circumstances through biological evolution alone.

So if you say that we should stop cultural evolution, you're also saying that we should go extinct at some point. I, however, hope that human species will exist as long as at all possible (so that there will be somebody to remember me after I die) and therefore I will strive to advance technology, which is the only thing that can prolong our existence.

God is anybody who takes control of their own destiny.

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IceFire, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say by giving us 1000 year old examples of the very thing you're so opposed to.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm just stating why all this advancement and "evolution" is not nesessary.<span id='postcolor'>

Survival through evolution is the base of every species we know to date. If it had not been for evolution, our early ancestors would not have been able to find the means to survive the many climate changes (and other adaptation requiring situations) that have taken place throughout the past. We would not have been able to rise to the top of the food chain (don't tell me THAT wouldn't have been a bad thing!wink.gif and we would still be living from day to day, trying to survive and find something to eat.

Everything we know as humankind is a product of evolution, and since we can't just rely on our physical abilities to survive, this is accompanied by our technology.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They did what they did as much as what we do with as little as they had.<span id='postcolor'>

The structure of their culture and society might have allowed them to make some items which would not be efficient to create today. It's not worth the effort to create scalpels that are a few molecules thinner than the current ones, if we really needed them, we would have made some a long time ago. Basically the same goes for road networks. We CAN replace all road networks with highly efficient ones, but the costs and effort required don't live up to the eventual benefits.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The lifestyle of the average ancient average Joe was surprisingly at a similar standard or better than the lives alot of us lead. Without all the pollution, chemicals, toxins, food poisioning, and processed food... etc. They had art, culture, literature, schools, medecine<span id='postcolor'>

... thousands of diseases we can cure today (pollution and food poisoning were actually very common in those days), massive food shortages, human sacrifices in the hope of making the next year a bit better than the previous, education exclusive to the highest members of society, no rights whatsoever to your average Joe, public execution for stealing a bit of bread when you were starving, inability to see any place other than your birth ground without running a 50% risk of getting yourself killed along the way, no means of eating/drinking/learning/hearing/seeing than what's locally available (unless you're part of the high society again) ... how long would you like me to go on about those jolly good days? tounge.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is still these things called "libraries". I don't think the internet is that useful. Most of the time I find junk, not what I am looking for.<span id='postcolor'>

It's your searching skills, trust me. Where can you find information on evolution? All past and current forms of technology? The lost civilizations of the Egyptians, Aztecs, Mayans and countless others? Internet is the biggest library on this planet, it just needs a few librarians to sort it out a bit.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you can't say all this technology is so great. Sure we are different than hundreds of years before. Now we have shiny metal gadgets that did the same things that they used their intelligence to do anyhow with some very sophisticated inventions.<span id='postcolor'>

You know that's utter bullshit, so I'm not even going to bother with examples here. You seem to fail to realise how much really technology is integrated into our society, that with our current knowledge and physical abilities we wouldn't even be able to survive without it. And as many of the advances made these days are improvements on things we already have (make them cleaner, more efficient, etc), I cannot see why this would even be a bad thing.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 25 2003,04:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The lifestyle of the average ancient average Joe was surprisingly at a similar standard or better than the lives alot of us lead.  Without all the pollution, chemicals, toxins, food poisioning, and processed food... etc.   They had art, culture, literature, schools, medecine(alot of which were better than what we have today, unfortunately science still can't figure out how they did it)  and so on ..

[...]

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, back then in the good ol' time you died at age of 35...

And world population was smaller. Think of 6 billion people heating with coal... *cough*

But:

Why do you use the internet?

Why did you buy such a fast computer (q.v. your other thread)? Your pc is a power-consuming game-machine. If you want to work with a pc a celeron is enough...

Why do you play OFP?

What are your motives for this condemnation of modern society?

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