Akibuua-FIN- 13 Posted June 16, 2022 Since this made into the development branch 15-06-2022. You changed this Tweaked: Rear view camera on AMV-7 - FT-T164530 You are "fixing" the only rear view camera that worked correctly to be wrong (as far as I can remember). In real life cars, trucks and any kind of vehicles (and in racing simulators too) driver's rear view camera feeds are mirrored, aka what's on the left side of the screen is on the left side of the vehicle and vice versa. So the camera view works the same way as an actual mirror. Don't believe me? Go to your local car dealership and see for your self. The reason why they work like that? The camera is there to help driver reverse the car and the important aspect in that case is to see what's behind you and on which side. (Easier to avoid objects). And the idea of the mirrored image is that image works the same way whether the driver looks into an actual mirror or reverse camera feed. So instead of tweaking AMV:s camera feed you should be tweaking almost everything else's reverse cameras. BTW I suspect that I'm not the first person to make this comment, because there are a enough deleted comments on the feedback tracker thread to think that I'm not first to notice that. Let's see how long this message stays here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harzach 2505 Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Akibuua-FIN- said: there are a enough deleted comments on the feedback tracker thread Link? Comments and tickets get deleted there for being redundant. That doesn't happen here (unless you cross/multi-post). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akibuua-FIN- 13 Posted June 16, 2022 17 minutes ago, Harzach said: Link? Comments and tickets get deleted there for being redundant. That doesn't happen here (unless you cross/multi-post). That's your problem with the issue? I had the feedback tracker ticket specified in my post. And in the changelog it is made in to link so that takes you directly there. But sure 4 removed comments, not deleted, ok I used the wrong term. And those comments were from 4 different users all posted within 3 hours from each other and less than 12 hours after the ticket was created. But yeah I admit. I do not know why those comments were removed. Now let's get back to the actual issue, shall we. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harzach 2505 Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Akibuua-FIN- said: That's your problem with the issue? I have no problem. I agree with you regarding the reverse camera needing to be mirrored. I was asking for a link to the ticket. Others might want to view it, subscribe, or add information/corroborate. Here it is: https://feedback.bistudio.com/T164530 1 hour ago, Akibuua-FIN- said: But sure 4 removed comments, not deleted, ok I used the wrong term. OK? I said nothing about your choice of words. Comments get deleted on the tracker for many reasons - redundancy, irrelevancy, spam, etc. In the case of the four deleted comments on your ticket, it was most certainly spam, as all four users have no other activity and have had their roles disabled. A comment by a known, active user is still there. There is no grand conspiracy on the Feedback Tracker, or here on the forums. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lexx 1331 Posted June 16, 2022 I didn't know this, so did a quick google search of the topic. It seems that many reverse cameras are flipped, but not all of them - also modern cameras have an option to unflip them. So the way I see it, it's not at all a fixed standard (anymore) that reverse camera images are mirrored. There is also a good amount of tutorials on how to "fix" the mirrored image, so for an amateur like me it looks like most people prefer it to not be mirrored. /Edit: Here is some visualization. Marshall on dev-branch is correct: Spoiler But for example the Marid is wrong: Spoiler tl;dr - you are right that some reverse cameras are flipped, but you are wrong that the Marshall is broken with this update - it is indeed fixed. /Edit²: I just reverted to stable-branch for comparison and it looks like the Marshall reverse camera mirroring wasn't changed at all. It's only the FOV that has changed: Spoiler More in-depth explanation for everyone who was just as confused as me: The "issue" with the Marshall reverse camera is that the monitor is not in front of the driver, but to the left of him. Because of this, under certain circumstances the shown image can indeed feel "wrong" or be confusing. As the monitor is to the left of the drivers view, looking actually left means you should see front of the vehicle on the display first, because if you would physically look out of the vehicle to the left, that's exactly what happens - you see the vehicle front first. However, as the display shows the back of the vehicle first ... it causes the confusion. Now if you imagine the monitor to be right in front of you instead, the currently shown image is correct. That said, after looking into this more, it really seems like almost every vehicle is suffering from the reverse camera image being wrong (see Marid-example above). It's an easy fix, though, -- the uv map of pip_screen.rvmat in the pilot LOD needs to be horizontally flipped... on all those vehicles. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akibuua-FIN- 13 Posted June 17, 2022 Ok. I guess I should have done more research before posting. Well I did check a few vehicles so consider this a non scientific and not complete test of conditions now on main branch. List shows ground vehicles with either reverse camera or rear view camera and type of image generated. Blufor Hunter rear view camera not mirrored IFV cheetah (aa) reverse camera not mirroredamv-7 marshall reverse camera mirrored ** crv-6e bobcat reverse camera not mirrored ifv-6c panther reverse camera not mirrored rhino mgs (and up) rear view camera not mirrored m4 scorcher rear view camera not mirrored m5 mlrs rear view camera not mirrored m2a1 and m2a4 slammers rear view camera not mirrored CSAT zsu-39 tigris reverse camera not mirrored btr-k kamysh reverse camera not mirrored mse-3 marid reverse camera not mirrored2s9 sochor rear view camera mirrored ** t-100 varsuk rear view camera mirrored ** t-140 angara reverse camera not mirrored AAF awc nyx all models rear view camera not mirrored afv-4 gorgon reverse camera not mirrored fv-720 mora reverse camera not mirrored strider rear view camera not mirrored mbt-52 kuma rear view camera not mirrored civ hatchback 3 cameras Left rear view of cars left side camera not mirrored, Center rear view of roof camera not mirrored Right front bonnet camera suv rear view camera not mirrored all factions van reverse camera not mirrored Vehicles that have correctly working camera, in my opinion, are highlighted. And I probably need to make a clarification, that I consider a reverse camera and a rear view camera to be different things. Reverse camera is activated by selecting reverse gear and it only shows image when the reverse gear is selected. Rear view camera is active when car's power is on. That means rear view cameras are used also when car is moving forward and are used either instead of or in addition to mirrors to see for example cars in other lanes or you protecting your position against others in race situations. So if the camera shows different image than a mirrors is confusing to say the least. Easiest way to see this is to drive forward on a two lane road and look in to rear view camera and figure out on which side of the road you are driving on from that image. Since the screens for both of these types are always in front of you (less than 90 degrees of head turning to see image) the usual way in real life is to have the image mirrored. Otherwise you get the situation that your thinking of direction has to change depending on whether you are looking at a mirror or camera feed even in the same vehicle. Simple test for it. Set up a simple slalom course in a place that has plenty of room (runway is good) and test your time in reversing a car along it and compare the times (or even the ease and precision you can steer and whether you crash or not) between lets say a HEMTT that only has mirrors and a van that has mirrors and a not mirrored reverse camera. And since this thread is about reversing. How about those tracked vehicles. While reversing in any tracked vehicle press the control for vehicle left. Which way should the vehicle turn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogoRogo 1 Posted June 18, 2022 20 hours ago, Akibuua-FIN- said: Ok. I guess I should have done more research before posting. Well I did check a few vehicles so consider this a non scientific and not complete test of conditions now on main branch. List shows ground vehicles with either reverse camera or rear view camera and type of image generated. Blufor Hunter rear view camera not mirrored IFV cheetah (aa) reverse camera not mirroredamv-7 marshall reverse camera mirrored ** crv-6e bobcat reverse camera not mirrored ifv-6c panther reverse camera not mirrored rhino mgs (and up) rear view camera not mirrored m4 scorcher rear view camera not mirrored m5 mlrs rear view camera not mirrored m2a1 and m2a4 slammers rear view camera not mirrored CSAT zsu-39 tigris reverse camera not mirrored btr-k kamysh reverse camera not mirrored mse-3 marid reverse camera not mirrored2s9 sochor rear view camera mirrored ** t-100 varsuk rear view camera mirrored ** t-140 angara reverse camera not mirrored AAF awc nyx all models rear view camera not mirrored afv-4 gorgon reverse camera not mirrored fv-720 mora reverse camera not mirrored strider rear view camera not mirrored mbt-52 kuma rear view camera not mirrored civ hatchback 3 cameras Left rear view of cars left side camera not mirrored, Center rear view of roof camera not mirrored Right front bonnet camera suv rear view camera not mirrored all factions van reverse camera not mirrored Vehicles that have correctly working camera, in my opinion, are highlighted. And I probably need to make a clarification, that I consider a reverse camera and a rear view camera to be different things. Reverse camera is activated by selecting reverse gear and it only shows image when the reverse gear is selected. Rear view camera is active when car's power is on. That means rear view cameras are used also when car is moving forward and are used either instead of or in addition to mirrors to see for example cars in other lanes or you protecting your position against others in race situations. So if the camera shows different image than a mirrors is confusing to say the least. Easiest way to see this is to drive forward on a two lane road and look in to rear view camera and figure out on which side of the road you are driving on from that image. Since the screens for both of these types are always in front of you (less than 90 degrees of head turning to see image) the usual way in real life is to have the image mirrored. Otherwise you get the situation that your thinking of direction has to change depending on whether you are looking at a mirror or camera feed even in the same vehicle. Simple test for it. Set up a simple slalom course in a place that has plenty of room (runway is good) and test your time in reversing a car along it and compare the times (or even the ease and precision you can steer and whether you crash or not) between lets say a HEMTT that only has mirrors and a van that has mirrors and a not mirrored reverse camera. And since this thread is about reversing. How about those tracked vehicles. While reversing in any tracked vehicle press the control for vehicle left. Which way should the vehicle turn? and as stated in this very thread, this bizarre option (and that is an OPTION in real life, not a default state or sole status design, and also very much not present on the actual Hoefyster testbed frames) does neither ergonomically apply to backup cameras displayed on MFDs in random locations nor in the context of a PC game. This niche option - while feasible for some, and some only, and only in real life - if a camera image happens to be displayed pip-style in a mirror or placed in "mirror location" does not qualify as being "correct", when it is completely unintuitive, unergonomic and outright confusing to the wider majority of the userbase. Highlighting this as "correct" when it is not only a bug in genesis but also does not apply to the vast majority of backup camera pip-displays in the A3 suite in really not contributive. The thought process behind doing so is even agnostically troublesome. The only, the ONLY suitable application would be an option toggle - somewhere. Which would we a waste of precious ressouces if seen from the potential usage rate. As for this sentence: " And since this thread is about reversing. How about those tracked vehicles. While reversing in any tracked vehicle press the control for vehicle left. Which way should the vehicle turn?", which is about controls. The vehicle should turn left, which is turning the forward hood right, and turning left in the PoV of the reverse vector. Unlike what they do now - that is to rotate left or right by control no matter the forward/reverse state. And the reasoning behind this is again not only simple ergonimics, control translation, de-facto standards but also simple fidelity. All the tracked assets have real life control setups that are visually represented in the ARMA suite that would result in this behaviour and by peripheral input translation (MKB, granular, sticks, wheels, pedals). The genesis of the current tracked control behaviour state is not design intent, it is bug manifestation, and by far not the only bug as there are foundational issues with vehicle controls in general, as examplarily outline fe here: https://feedback.bistudio.com/T157554 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogoRogo 1 Posted June 18, 2022 On 6/16/2022 at 10:29 PM, lexx said: I didn't know this, so did a quick google search of the topic. It seems that many reverse cameras are flipped, but not all of them - also modern cameras have an option to unflip them. So the way I see it, it's not at all a fixed standard (anymore) that reverse camera images are mirrored. There is also a good amount of tutorials on how to "fix" the mirrored image, so for an amateur like me it looks like most people prefer it to not be mirrored. /Edit: Here is some visualization. Marshall on dev-branch is correct: Hide contents But for example the Marid is wrong: Hide contents tl;dr - you are right that some reverse cameras are flipped, but you are wrong that the Marshall is broken with this update - it is indeed fixed. /Edit²: I just reverted to stable-branch for comparison and it looks like the Marshall reverse camera mirroring wasn't changed at all. It's only the FOV that has changed: Hide contents More in-depth explanation for everyone who was just as confused as me: The "issue" with the Marshall reverse camera is that the monitor is not in front of the driver, but to the left of him. Because of this, under certain circumstances the shown image can indeed feel "wrong" or be confusing. As the monitor is to the left of the drivers view, looking actually left means you should see front of the vehicle on the display first, because if you would physically look out of the vehicle to the left, that's exactly what happens - you see the vehicle front first. However, as the display shows the back of the vehicle first ... it causes the confusion. Now if you imagine the monitor to be right in front of you instead, the currently shown image is correct. That said, after looking into this more, it really seems like almost every vehicle is suffering from the reverse camera image being wrong (see Marid-example above). It's an easy fix, though, -- the uv map of pip_screen.rvmat in the pilot LOD needs to be horizontally flipped... on all those vehicles. this is a CAMERA DISPLAY, not a Lexus pip-mirror - how can anyone even think to type that an MFD-CAMERA FEED is "correct", when the camera image is flipped. The picture is the wrong way round on the Marshal, while the "Madrid" CAMERA FEED displays a correct, untinkered, non-reversed, as-is camera picture on the MFD. MFD location is irrelevant, and also the real life counterparts of these systems do not have a "mirror-flip" as a default state, and for very good reasons (mostly this is not even present as a deep layer option, and why would it). Quick google searches about certain markets' driven "car features" might a a slightly disorienting basis for AV-MFD functionality representation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
