Prarie Fire discussion

[bigshot 62]

1 hour ago, stburr91 said:

I would adjust your expectation, and do your best to adapt what you want to do with the terrain

 

Yep...I know, I know...but honestly, If anyone's seen my posts/questions about this terrain before it's release it becomes apparent that my expectations were already quite subdued because I inherently understood that if the terrain was released without enough AI pathways then those AI will not properly traverse. It's up to the map makers to create those pathways if the AI had any chance at dynamic thought and movement upon the terrain. What I don't understand is...since they provided a way for users to create invisible pathways through certain sections then this means that the map makers could have done this themselves and in doing so could have provided us with a more AI friendly environment to begin with.

 

I ended up buying this DLC only because of the half dozen or so folks in my Discord channel who were hyped by all the attention and they wanted to try it, regardless of my warnings...so I threw $20 at it even though I was afraid I'd only end up with what I'd consider to be a  PvP map...which in the end it truly is, unless you are into shooting at sitting ducks in red zones. Where exactly the fun in doing that is, I do not know, I mean other than some brief shooting practice of course...you know, which is fine for some short lived entertainment.

 

It's difficult as a mission maker to be so easily entertained by the the AI behavior in this DLC when one understands what is actually possible and how much better it can be when playing against enemy bots which aren't always just hanging around within a 100m circle inside of a town. It's like going to a commercial trout pond to go trout fishing...you know exactly what to expect. Great for kids, but there's only so much fun to be had after awhile.

 

 Back in 2001 I can remember that it was the dynamically oriented CTI missions that were extremely helpful in getting the franchise to grow and become popular. It took a LONG time for people to accept Flashpoint and to learn how to enjoy it, and the CTI missions were the first large missions which actually contained DYNAMIC Ai (AI which traversed the entire map with patrols found in between the red zones). It was this dynamic type of play where you and your friends were up against an "always on the move" enemy that sparked a revolution for this franchise and really helped to turn it around inside the retail consumer market. People started having so much fun with it that Flashpoint finally started catching on in the consumer market. Once Arma 1 eventually released many years later there was a new CTI released very shortly to go with it.

 

As time passed, dynamic AI became more and more prevalent in missions and more sought out by players...and here's the KEY.... they worked reasonably well only because, for the most part, the terrains had enough pathways for them to traverse it. Yes, maybe 20 out of every 100 units would still get stuck or lose their way around the maps and people complained (hence the term arma'ism) but now instead of only 20% of the AI screwing up, on this vietnam map, it's more like the other way around where 80% of the AI is getting hung up because they cant detect a pathway to a distant waypoint and perhaps only 20% of them will actually move well enough to reach it.

 

Operation Flashpoint, Arma 1 and Arma 2 (at least in part) and Arma 3 (also in part) have default maps which provide the AI with enough pathways (whether the paths be invisible or visible) to traverse it. IMO, if anyone knows how to provide invisible pathways for this terrain it would go a long way to helping this DLC have true longevity and even help to bring some of the old players back to the franchise. 

[krzychuzokecia 700]

After playing various SP and MP (PvE) missions over the last week, I have to agree with @bigshot - there seems to be a number of flaws with the terrain design, that make it more often than not unplayable.

 

This isn't simply an effect of "fitting large landscape on small map", like @stburr91 says here:

5 hours ago, stburr91 said:

Every map is a compromise. I, and I bet every dev that worked on the terrain would have loved to see Cam Lao Nam 4-5 times bigger, but that's not really possible, so, it's a compromise.

 

The problem is either with how particular locations were designed, or with the assets used to create them. We already know about the bounds of the rice paddies (an issue acknowledged by devs - so that's a positive sign for the future!). But there are more problems, especially in villages and towns, were the number of extra props (furniture, trash threwn over the place, objects like cars, food stalls, etc.) is so big that AI has huge troubles moving around. You can see it even in Whiplash's "Operation Fish Hook" - the enemy in villages will often get blocked near some objects/buildings. Heck, if you take closer look, you'll observe this behaviour even in "Prairie Fire" campaign, or other "official" PvE modes (like Escape).

 

5 hours ago, stburr91 said:

devs instead focused on creating a terrain that would be suitable for how most people play Arma, multiplayer/coop. 

 

To put it bluntly, every mission/mode that will utilize any AI will suffer from the inability of computer-controlled combatants to move over the terrain. That includes co-op too, quite obviously. So what possible game modes are left, which can be run on Cam Lao Nam without problems? Only PvP, which in 2021 limits us to KOTH and it's clones, I suppose (CTF is almost dead, CTI as a competetive mode is dead, BI modes - Warlords and End Game - never seemed to catch on). And then there's an issue of performance drops in towns and villages, which IMO stems from the same problem of "too much crap" on the map.

 

Which is not to say that I don't appreciate the effort which went into some of the locations, like the hootches at the airport. But in 2021, with Eden Editor, compositions, and scripts used to spawn them in game, there's really no need to put all that on the map itself.

 

Edit: and yes, I'm aware of the "AI path" objects in the editor, but it's really like putting a band-aid on a gun shot wound. Not only it's applicable to a fraction of missions in Arma, but while it may work wonders in some places, I suspect there's still a thousand places where AI will only get more confused by additional pathways (especially in presence of buildings).

[Private Evans 498]

Well I posted some stuff on their forums so they are at least aware of the rice paddies. I also asked for a sticky thread for all the map related issues but had no success which is not very conducive😕

 

Beside the not working Rice paddies I found some more issues like AI boats are not able  to drive below the bridges. Bridges and also some of the dirt paths can only be traversed in column formation , which is not only very slow but also fucks pathfinding up completely if there is another unit trying to cross at the same time from the opposite direction. BIg Rocks/Rockformations and also a lot of the bigger buildings are blocking AI paths even if there is a gap in between. I guess this has something to do with the collision boxes and is only noticable when AI path finding is tested.

AI driving seems more worse than on vanilla maps, as mentioned before I noticed a lot of zig zagging.  

Like on so many other maps, streetsigns and lamps are placed to close to the roadway and crossroads which always ends up AI ramming them all over the place. Another common mistake is the placement of fences and walls around orchards, fields, villages and compounds, Most of the time there is only one entrance/exit...so if you as a Teamleader vault over a fence your team has to make all the way back and all around the whole place which often leads to confusion xD. 

Beside that there are also some buildings and rocks where AI units simply fall through the floor and get stuck....Spiderholes and the tunnelsystems seem to have problems with AI too but I have not tested those yet....What works pretty good regarding pathfinding is most of the jungle terrain as long as there are no big rocks 🙂  

 

This map needs proper testing and then to be revised for AI movement. My guess is that most of the testing has been COOP against placed AI which is always fun and also always working without major problems....

 

Edit...a few things can be done by removing blocking objects or by placing objects more AI friendly....but the serious problems we have here with objects that are simply not optimized or made for AI ..like the dyke walls, dirt paths and bridges

[Private Evans 498]

Hahah if you want a real challenge try to play the Allive mission that lets you fight the Battle for Hue with friendly AI. It starts at your camp and your first task is to enter some vehicles, form a convoy and head for the town center of Hue.....this will make you smash your keyboard and uninstall Arma for good  xD

[R0adki11 3945]

On 5/20/2021 at 5:18 PM, Guard81 said:

Much as I'm enjoying the Mike Force mode, there's a raft of issues coming up. I dare say server admins and communities will be passing those along shortly, if they haven't already.

These range from zones inter-connecting unexpectedly, to vehicles spawning under ground and people falling through rocks.

 

The Mike Force game mode is not part of the CDLC. Its a game mode released as separate workshop download. Its also a beta so expect bugs for Mike Force.

[pierremgi 4737]

As mission/mod maker, i'm always interested in sorting classes (mainly for possible interaction on objects).

 

Anyway, I wonder what can be the reason for 2 similar (same) objects like:   land_vn_czehhedgehog_01_f  (S.OG. DLC)  and Land_CzechHedgehog_01_old_F (Arma)
Of course, there are plenty of double objects like this. Was it essential? For which added value?

 

As second comment, some of these integrated objects can kill immersion : plastic bags for garbage in Vietman of 60s ? (see pos : [12987.8,13388.4,0])

[Asaayu 43]

On 5/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, haleks said:

Same thing here. 😕

My zombies do a weird little scream when they die...

Unfortunately the restrict module does not restrict the death sounds.
In the current build there is no way to stop a unit from playing a death noise, but I've added that functionality in the internal build.

You can do one of the following to get the unit to not make a death sound,

1. Per unit you can set the variable vn_sam_disable_death_noise on the unit to true
2. Per class you can add the attribute vn_sam_disable = 1; to the units class in the config
   OR
   In your missions run the following after the modules have finished loading vn_sam_blacklist_classes pushBackUnique "unit_classname"
   Run this on each client or publicVariable the array, although I'm not sure when publicVariable runs on a JIP compared to the modules.

This will stop your unit(s) from making a death noise the next time the CDLC receives an update. 

 

[haleks 8204]

Thanks @Asaayu!

This is very helpful - I'll update my mods accordingly! 😉 

[krzychuzokecia 700]

On 5/22/2021 at 3:48 AM, pierremgi said:

plenty of double objects like this

 (...)

As second comment, some of these integrated objects can kill immersion

Yeah, the map sadly suffers from a lot of issues, whether these are related to AI, or reusing of older Arma assets that don't quite fit. Which is a shame, because I love the jungles, and the mountains, and US FOBs, but in villages and towns there's always "something" that simply takes the fun out of the game. Also it's a bit disappointing that cities often lack iconic locations, such as US embassy, Independence Palace or Newport Bridge in Saigon. Hell, Phnom Penh seems to be missing completely, and there's no denying that it also was a witness of important events during the Vietnam War.

 

Fortunately it seems that devs are quite "receptive" (is it even a word?) to the feedback, so maybe someday the map will also get some do-over.

[johnnyboy 3741]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:43 PM, EO said:

 

I've made a ticket for a at least one of those high walkways in the mountains, completely inaccessible for the player nevermind AI, hopefully they get round to fixing some of these issues with a future patch. 

I found that same bridge.  If you put a pallet at the end of the bridge that is too high for player to step up on, the player is then able to cross it.  I had to write scripts to force animate AI to reach there.   They won't go within 40 meters of either side of bridge on their own.

[EO 11225]

48 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

I found that same bridge.  If you put a pallet at the end of the bridge that is too high for player to step up on, the player is then able to cross it.  I had to write scripts to force animate AI to reach there.   They won't go within 40 meters of either side of bridge on their own.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see what map-related changes are made with future patches, I've since made a few more map-related tickets, various things like misplaced objects, inaccessible watchtowers, all unassigned so far. 😞  

[Nutzgo 15]

We have this bug in MikeForce that some enemies just wont die. 3-4 guys shooting 1-2 mags at the VC, and he simply wont fall.

 

Edit:

Someone was running ace. Turned it off, ai can again be killed. 

[Ex3B 265]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:47 PM, krzychuzokecia said:

Yeah, the map sadly suffers from a lot of issues, whether these are related to AI, or reusing of older Arma assets that don't quite fit. Which is a shame, because I love the jungles, and the mountains, and US FOBs, but in villages and towns there's always "something" that simply takes the fun out of the game. Also it's a bit disappointing that cities often lack iconic locations, such as US embassy, Independence Palace or Newport Bridge in Saigon. Hell, Phnom Penh seems to be missing completely, and there's no denying that it also was a witness of important events during the Vietnam War.

So what is the overall consensus on the map quality?

 

If AI can't use it well, I think thats a deal breaker for me

[johnnyboy 3741]

2 hours ago, Ex3B said:

So what is the overall consensus on the map quality?

 

If AI can't use it well, I think thats a deal breaker for me

I personally love the map, and the very high quality and diversity of units and weapons.   AI has trouble in densely decorated areas, but jungle combat is great, and all the rivers and Mekong Delta make for great boat patrols and boat fights.  I made a simple-to-use script that solves boat AI waypoint issues if you're interested.

 

I've got my 20$ worth of entertainment just by placing units and waypoints in editor in different locations for quick combat.

[zukov 483]

https://cdn-animation.artstation.com/p/video_sources/000/378/262/mig2v.mp4

Mig 21 inbound

[Private Evans 498]

4 hours ago, Ex3B said:

So what is the overall consensus on the map quality?

 

If AI can't use it well, I think thats a deal breaker for me

The map itself is awesome, it looks awesome, it nails the setting and it has a ton of interesting locations for making scenarios, it's focus lying clearly on SOG ops best played in COOP. 

AI movement, commanding AI units or even having AI units work and navigate indipendently over the complete map is atm a complete different thing. As mentioned the jungle areas work quiet well for AI as long as there are no rocks, bridges, waterways and structures involved. The rest of the map works really bad for AI...from rice paddies that can not be traversed to bridges and walkways that do not work, rocks blocking paths or having no collision etc etc. 

We will have to wait and see if they are willing to revise the map ( there is a lot on the bug tracker) to make it better for AI movment.

[krzychuzokecia 700]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:46 PM, Ex3B said:

So what is the overall consensus on the map quality?

I don't think there's any "consensus" about the map, or even whole DLC.

 

IMHO the map is the "last nail in the coffin" for SOG:PF - it's simply unplayable. And looks are not great either - as mentioned previously, it uses a lot of assets from previous Arma titles, so the overall quality is mixed, and there are even things from another timelines appearing. I also don't really like the overwhelming number of small props - it's the polar opposite of Altis "UFOs ate furniture", but it kills performance, and you gotta delete all that first, before making your own locations for your missions (which, due to the size of the props, and nature of "delete object" modules, is often tedious process).

 

On the other hand there are people who simply love everything in the DLC, even if it needs 3rd party content (...terrains) to really get some action with all other assets.

[Ex3B 265]

On 6/4/2021 at 8:30 PM, zukov said:

https://cdn-animation.artstation.com/p/video_sources/000/378/262/mig2v.mp4

Mig 21 inbound

I was going to say, perhaps it may be a mig-17 instead, but the munition racks seem like a better fit for a Vietnam eta mig-21.

 

On 6/4/2021 at 8:46 PM, Private Evans said:

AI movement, commanding AI units or even having AI units work and navigate indipendently over the complete map is atm a complete different thing. As mentioned the jungle areas work quiet well for AI as long as there are no rocks, bridges, waterways and structures involved. The rest of the map works really bad for AI...from rice paddies that can not be traversed to bridges and walkways that do not work, rocks blocking paths or having no collision etc etc. 

We will have to wait and see if they are willing to revise the map ( there is a lot on the bug tracker) to make it better for AI movment.

Married with children....er child here, don't have the time needed for multiplayer communities beyond jumping in koth.

I do a lot of playing around in the efiitor and single player missions ... seems like this DLC is not for me.

 

 

[pierremgi 4737]

On 6/4/2021 at 8:46 AM, Private Evans said:

We will have to wait and see if they are willing to revise the map ( there is a lot on the bug tracker) to make it better for AI movment.

 

Imho, it's just impossible. Neither BI nor any map modder did that in the past. Bridges and roads and be tuned with paths but AIs will never be more clever. Rocks, trees and bushes are numerous, like in Tanoa, which remains the weirdest official map for the mission makers.

The only thing you can do is to adapt your scenario with these potential problems: Travel by helo, fast travels... and local actions/fights.
A simple river can ruin your scenario, bridges or not.

[Private Evans 498]

3 minutes ago, pierremgi said:

 

Imho, it's just impossible. Neither BI nor any map modder did that in the past. Bridges and roads and be tuned with paths but AIs will never be more clever. Rocks, trees and bushes are numerous, like in Tanoa, which remains the weirdest official map for the mission makers.

The only thing you can do is to adapt your scenario with these potential problems: Travel by helo, fast travels... and local actions/fights.
A simple river can ruin your scenario, bridges or not.

 

Yeah but for me it seems that absolutely none testing has done here regarding AI movement. Look at the PKL map , it works far better because Bludsky used raised ground for the rice paddy dikes instead of objects, he used a lot of rock ground textures instead of using large rocks, the trenches are real trenches and not objects, the small waterways  are not too deep, so that you can walk through the water at many places...there is a lot you can do with object placment also...for example leaving enough gaps in fences and walls etc...and finally it needs a lot of testing. I don't think it is possible to get it perfect within Arma 3...but a lot better.

 

46 minutes ago, Ex3B said:

I was going to say, perhaps it may be a mig-17 instead, but the munition racks seem like a better fit for a Vietnam eta mig-21.

 

Married with children....er child here, don't have the time needed for multiplayer communities beyond jumping in koth.

I do a lot of playing around in the efiitor and single player missions ... seems like this DLC is not for me.

 

 

 

This dlc really offers a lot and I am sure there is more to come but as it is right now for people playing mainly SP I would suggest to wait for the next patches and see if they fix the most annoying problems for AI movement ....

[froggyluv 2130]

The question here and elephant in the room is -why doesnt BI EVER address these major AI issues of pathfinding ? I mean what on earth  happened to the Lead AI programmer and team -do they even acknowledge these problems? Do they just use selective vision and pretend like it doesnt exist hoping players forget about it or just chalk it up to "AI wonkiness?" I literally just dont understand how and why after 10 years of patches there isnt ONE relevent mention or address of the issue. 

 

They are hoping we will just all play Multiplayer and forget AI  but Arma/OFP will never be a huge PvP type game -we want military engagements which require tons of AI to fill the casting roles and alls we ask is that you freakin TRY and address the problem. I have to say that the developers of this DLC are also responsible for bad AI pathfinding - yes im calling you out specifically @Icebreaker because people asked you point blank "Will i be able to play this map as AI friendly?" - a real concern for a potential paying customer and you basically dodged the question. Now if your just modding working and delivering for free like i know youve done for years (ya salut) - people have no real right to complain as your work is free. But now thats its a full priced DLC -you all have a responsibility to be honest with the fanbase you've been a part of for so long. Many of us play SP and missions like ALIVE or CTI's -how on earth can we play if the AI can not properly transverse the map?? If you know this before selling it -TELL US! "This is not a SP friendly map - if thats what your looking for -be warned" -would be a nice honest tag for your fellow ARMA-ians. The silence i see as contemptable and honestly expected better.

 

Props to all the scripters trying their hardest right now to right these pathfinding wrongs. Maybe next time BI and DLC creators -invest in a proper AI scripting expert -we have some right here among us...

[Private Evans 498]

Very good points froggy ! I am not expecting that BI is going to overhaul the AI movement for Arma 3 but we all do exactly know what causes the most problems. Half arsed made props..may it be surfaces of rocks, bridges,  rooftops of Tanoa Office Buildings, the flightdeck of the Carrier, bad collision boxes  or configs that stop AI movement even if there seems to be enough place to walk through....

So if these things would be fixed at least and map makers also would care more about AI movement...things would look better.

 

[johnnyboy 3741]

I've posted a scripted solution that allows AI to navigate rice paddies.  Go here to see the video and find out how to use it.

[froggyluv 2130]

Can yall clean up the DSAI -that is the soldiers banter youve added? None of it makes any sense contextually -for instance my squad is 800m away scoping an sole enemy at a base but since we registered an enemy my guys went into Comnbat mode and started spewing all kinda nonsense line about "incoming RPG" or "Flank the Left" -what?! or even worse one guy yelling Fire at Will even though i directly gave a Hold Fire command.

 

Not much thought was  put in this at all -i have done a similar mod and it takes things like types/amount off enemies, their distance , what quality of troop is enemy and also what quality of troop is speaker ie Commandos shouldnt be yellling out basic shit that a footsoldier would as he has more composure

[pierremgi 4737]

 @froggyluv   +++

Vanilla is already a non-sense when "skilled" AIs ask you where you are every minutes, even if you are 150m in front of them on a runway,... but able to see an enemy 1klick away.

Here, that reaches summits of unrealistic weird FSMs.