Stalingrad

[zverushka 0]

I think I have a different book from you. It wasn't by antony beevor

I don't understand why you are trying to prove that one or the other side was more cruel etc. etc. War is war, people kill and rape each other. You aren't going to get the nobel prize if you prove that for example the russians were the cruelest sonofabitches in the valley. What we need to focus on is the human side of all the soldiers. Even the most fanatical japanese soldier, even the cruelest SS prison guard were human.

[Badgerboy 0]

I'm not trying to prove that the Russians were evil, just that they were as bad as the Germans. The Guards regiments generally had a good reputation, but the mass of the Red Army was a undisciplined rabble.

Frankly the Japanese were just as bad, but not on the same scale.

(Strangely enough, guess which country treated its prisoners of war the best in WW1. The Japanese! God knows what happened after that!

[zverushka 0]

you really need help. who the hell are you to judge the soldiers? you with the 20/20 hind vision

[HellToupee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 05 2003,12:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really understand why so many people seem to feel a bit disgusted towards the Russian soldiers that once fought there. Everyone keeps talking about the jews that were killed and all the more known countries that lost a large amount of men. But none of that can be compared to the amount of Russians that died. I have 4 videos of Operation Barbarossa (a total of about 4 hours, from the first till the last day) and if i remember correct, the red army lost 10 to 12 million soldiers...

No doubt about it, they deserve some more respect...<span id='postcolor'>

The thing was, when the Jews were set free, they didn't attempt to exterminate every German they came across.

Not only did the Red Army commit the biggest mass rape in recent history, (Researched and documented in the book 'Berlin' ), but they shot pretty much every German male (Fascist bandits come as young as 8 it appears! ) they came across. Out of 150,000 Pows taken at Stalingrad, 1,500 came back alive, ten years later!

I could go on, but in short, it sickens me that people keep praising the Soviet forces for the 'good' they did. This was general policy for all the armed forces! Even the regular German Army had guide lines in the Eastern front, rape could get you courtmartialed. In the Red Army it was actively encouraged!

I suggest you read 'Berlin'. It will certainly temper your views on the Red Army.<span id='postcolor'>

what do u think happened to russian POWs, u think germans treated them well, what about that SS group that followed the german 6th army and exterminated civilians, german soldiers took clothes and blankets from civilians and kiked them out of theri homes so they could use them. The russians returned the favour, they wouldnt be too happy about hving their country invaded and cities turned to rubble. What ever the russians did i can guaratee you the germans had already done it worse to them.

[HellToupee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 05 2003,13:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not trying to prove that the Russians were evil, just that they were as bad as the Germans. The Guards regiments generally had a good reputation, but the mass of the Red Army was a undisciplined rabble.

Frankly the Japanese were just as bad, but not on the same scale.

(Strangely enough, guess which country treated its prisoners of war the best in WW1. The Japanese! God knows what happened after that!<span id='postcolor'>

The japanese probly commited the least war crimes just how many american civilains did they kill and how many of theirs were killed, tehy treated POWs badly because they held no respect for them, they considered them cowards for surrending.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HellToupee @ Feb. 05 2003,01:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 05 2003,13:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not trying to prove that the Russians were evil, just that they were as bad as the Germans. The Guards regiments generally had a good reputation, but the mass of the Red Army was a undisciplined rabble.

Frankly the Japanese were just as bad, but not on the same scale.

(Strangely enough, guess which country treated its prisoners of war the best in WW1. The Japanese! God knows what happened after that!<span id='postcolor'>

The japanese probly commited the least war crimes just how many american civilains did they kill and how many of theirs were killed, tehy treated POWs badly because they held no respect for them, they considered them cowards for surrending.<span id='postcolor'>

How many Chinese civilians did they kill?

Over 300,000 in one city (Nanjing/Nanking).

Your statement is ridiculous.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what do u think happened to russian POWs, u think germans treated them well, what about that SS group that followed the german 6th army and exterminated civilians, german soldiers took clothes and blankets from civilians and kiked them out of theri homes so they could use them. The russians returned the favour, they wouldnt be too happy about hving their country invaded and cities turned to rubble. What ever the russians did i can guaratee you the germans had already done it worse to them. <span id='postcolor'>

Thats not the point. You can't take the moral high ground if you were just as bad.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The japanese probly commited the least war crimes just how many american civilains did they kill and how many of theirs were killed, tehy treated POWs badly because they held no respect for them, they considered them cowards for surrending.<span id='postcolor'>

The Japs were fuckers in WW2. My great granddad had to build that bastard railwayfor them. My point was thatin WW1 theytreated all POW's with respect, which I thought was strange considering what they did in WW2.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you really need help. who the hell are you to judge the soldiers? you with the 20/20 hind vision<span id='postcolor'>

I'm British. We fought the Germans as well, so I'm not really biased. My country stuck to the rules of engagement in general, so in hindsight, the activites of the Germans/Russiansand Japs on the whole were dispicable to me.

(Note : No that all soldiers involved were bastards. The Russianand German armies produced outstanding Officers, with a high moral fibre (Not SS/NKVD lapdogs). I have great respect for men like Rommel, and of a lesser extent Zhukov. (great General, but pissed away many Russian soldiers lives needlessly on the Berlin area of operations)

I won't comment on the Japanese, as I have personal opinions on their WW2 conduct, that would cloud my judgement.

[zverushka 0]

Badgerboy- Don't. post. anymore

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Badgerboy- Don't. post. anymore<span id='postcolor'>

Give me a good reason not to, and I will.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Feb. 05 2003,01:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you really need help. who the hell are you to judge the soldiers? you with the 20/20 hind vision<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think you need hindsight to see that raping civilians is wrong. And I would suggest you settle down and take your medicine; I'm an American, and feel like we're one of the good guys, yet I have to look the oozing mass of anti-American sentiment that is this forum (and most of this world) right in the face every day. So settle down, and don't take it personnally

[Badgerboy 0]

The voice of reason....

The don't give out those VIP thingies for free you know!

(Bribes or sexual favours to Denoir are required for that!    )

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 05 2003,01:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thats not the point. You can't take the moral high ground if you were just as bad.

I'm British. We fought the Germans as well, so I'm not really biased. My country stuck to the rules of engagement in general, so in hindsight, the activites of the Germans/Russiansand Japs on the whole were dispicable to me.<span id='postcolor'>

Yet you yourself are trying to apply the moral high ground to the British. What about the strategic bombing campaign and the millions of German/Japanese civilan casualties it produced? A child burned alive by an incendiary bomb is just as dead as the one shot on the street.

Mind you, I'm not defending the Russian troop's behaviour in Germany - it was in many cases criminal - but I am saying that no SIDE can come out of a war "keeping the high moral ground", the nature of war itself precludes it. All you can do is set your own personal moral standards if you are a combatant, and try to follow them.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Feb. 04 2003,00:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Feb. 04 2003,16:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (desantnik @ Feb. 03 2003,01<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was a battle of demotivated, underfeeded, exhausted men without bullets.<span id='postcolor'>

I would say that is a bit untrue since the Russians were generally highly motivated by one form or another. Plus if this was the death grip anybody would do everything his body would allow to fight back. I dont think the Russian soldiers suffered from demorelization nearly as much as the Germans.<span id='postcolor'>

In the beginning they probable did, cuz Germany kicked Russia's ass at first... After a while Russia started using other tactics, this resulted in them being able to fight back => more motivated soldiers on the Russian side...<span id='postcolor'>

Is there any theory out there that the approaches the Eastern Front issue "if there wouldnt have been a winter".

Seriously, just imagine what would have happened if Hitler would have waited a bit longer. I doubt that in case they would have started after the winter they wouldnt have been able to take Moscow!<span id='postcolor'>

Dunno, hitler made the same mistake as one of his idols once made. Both of them arrived in Russia during winter while not being prepared for that at all...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not only did the Red Army commit the biggest mass rape in recent history, (Researched and documented in the book 'Berlin' ), but they shot pretty much every German male (Fascist bandits come as young as 8 it appears! ) they came across. Out of 150,000 Pows taken at Stalingrad, 1,500 came back alive, ten years later!

<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah that's true, but i'd do exactly the same thing... And i'm not afraid to say it.

The young kids that the Russians shot were probable Hitler Jugend, i've seen other allied troops do exactly the same so basically it happened everywhere. Same for innocent people...

The Russians have probable killed a lot more than other allies but i won't judge them for what they did. As i said, i would've done exactly the same, hell yes, i would have shot every German person that i'd meet. Sounds horrible but i know myself a bit and i know that i'd be full of hatred and i sure wouldn't mind to spend another bullet on some German guy's head. Of course that's how i'd react during wartime, not now

Yes they might've done horrible things, but without them, even worse things would probable have happened. It's almost like the atom bomb, yes it was a horrible thing to do, but it stopped the war, right? Comparable but let's not start nagging about this too much

[Goodspeed 0]

I saw very different opinion here. I'm glad to see people here wich dont cover soldiers name in mud.

Badgerboy

You must be dont know that germans killed millions of soviet civilians. There were only women, children and old people, all other was on war.

Year ago I read the memories of russian partisan, I cant forget it heretofore, hi wrote that one day in the little viliage in the belarus german tankman crush pregnant women by track because they supposed that she was in partisan squadron. Its just one event. Try to search by keywords: hatin, babiy yar. You'll find more terrible facts.

England and America didnt see the real war. In comparison with war in Russia you saw nothing. If your nation suffered such hardship then we wount find such posts here. So dont play in judge. You choose wrong place.

I'm sorry for kind offtopic but I cant read such posts silently.

[Badgerboy 0]

We could go on for ages listing atrocities commited by both sides, but thats not the issue. The Germans murdered many Soviet civilians, and the Soviets murdered many German civilians. (And both sides were hell bent on killing their own civilians as well)

Civilians on both sides suffered by the brutal actions of two rabid crazed leaders, their lapdogs. (SS/NKVD), and the immoral/illegal actions of their armies.

Nothing to be proud of on either side really?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 08 2003,15:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nothing to be proud of on either side really?<span id='postcolor'>

Neither was the bombing of civilians by all sides, yet somehow you feel that you can claim the high moral ground.

Personally, I don't see how the Germans may have expected to be treated otherwise, considering they had set out to exterminate the inferior Slavic race and use their land as "living space".

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Neither was the bombing of civilians by all sides, yet somehow you feel that you can claim the high moral ground.

<span id='postcolor'>

I've made my feelings about the bombing of civilians, and in particular Dresden known in another thread. The bombing campaign was a terrible thing, and is certainly something I don't support. It was certainly a bad mark against my countries conduct.

As for the 'moral high ground', I think you'll agree that dropping bombs on people, isn't quite in the same league as gassing millions, or raping then shooting civilians.

Terrible things happen in war, but to commit crimes like that, up and personal, when you can look into their eyes, is far fucking worse. As for people who say dropping bombs on people is just as bad as raping/torturing/killing civilians face to face...... well, your fools really aren't you?

[foxer 0]

Look what the japanese army did to korea,and POWs.They was Just rats to them just testing stuff out.Also i heard a story when japanese army took an town they rape all the women there,the youngest was like 7 and the oldest was like 60 something.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 08 2003,21:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Neither was the bombing of civilians by all sides, yet somehow you feel that you can claim the high moral ground.

<span id='postcolor'>

I've made my feelings about the bombing of civilians, and in particular Dresden known in another thread. The bombing campaign was a terrible thing, and is certainly something I don't support. It was certainly a bad mark against my countries conduct.

As for the 'moral high ground', I think you'll agree that dropping bombs on people, isn't quite in the same league as gassing millions, or raping then shooting civilians.

Terrible things happen in war, but to commit crimes like that, up and personal, when you can look into their eyes, is far fucking worse. As for people who say dropping bombs on people is just as bad as raping/torturing/killing civilians face to face...... well, your fools really aren't you?<span id='postcolor'>

Dropping a load of fire bombs into a city is every bit as immoral and wrong as raping or shooting a civilian. You just cling to the idea that because it is impersonal, and the pilot never sees the results of his actions that it must somehow be 'cleaner'

Its not.

If your load of indiscriminately dropped incendiaries land on a hospital and a ward of sick children arent evacuated before it burns to the ground... how is that even remotely less reprehensible than shooting civilians?

Horrific things happen in war. That is a simple fact. The firebombing done by the allies is no less inhumane and horrific than anything Hitler or Stalin did. The difference is only in scale, and that it was the 'good guys' that did it.

[ralphwiggum 6]

and as always, now we are seeing the probabilty of flamewar or offtopic in making. please stick to Stalingrad please

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The firebombing done by the allies is no less inhumane and horrific than anything Hitler or Stalin did. <span id='postcolor'>

So your effectively saying that the firebombing of Dresden is comparable to the attempted extermination of a race of people? I don't follow the FSpilot theory of 'Well there was a guy with a gun in that town, so it was ok to nuke it', and the firebombing of Dresden sickens me when I think about it.

Firebombing and the rape and murder of civilians are both wrong. Very wrong. I suppose I hold the one in higher contempt due to scale + intent of individual soldiers.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You just cling to the idea that because it is impersonal, and the pilot never sees the results of his actions that it must somehow be 'cleaner'<span id='postcolor'>

No its not, its fucking terrible, but I feel it to be the lesser of the two evils.

1. Shoot a person with a rifle from a distance, and you kill him. - Murder - Wrong.

2. Beat the person up, gang rape them, kill their kids in front of their eyes, then cut their throats. - Murder - Wrong

Both are as bad as each other. One however is far easier for the human mind to commit. Still wrong, but easy.

One shows a mind that is probably enjoying the act, an act which would need a great deal of vengeance/spite and hatred to commit.

Personally, I believe the second is in effect worse than the first. It takes a corrupt, fucked up being to do that, while the first only takes a weak minded person to press a button.

Thats my opinion anyway, so on a human level, I would consider one worse than the other.

-I'm finished Ralph-

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 07 2003,22:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the 'moral high ground', I think you'll agree that dropping bombs on people, isn't quite in the same league as gassing millions, or raping then shooting civilians.

Terrible things happen in war, but to commit crimes like that, up and personal, when you can look into their eyes, is far fucking worse. As for people who say dropping bombs on people is just as bad as raping/torturing/killing civilians face to face...... well, your fools really aren't you?<span id='postcolor'>

Bah, every country has bombed, every country has raped, if you don't believe this, just search some information of WW2, WW1, Vietnam, and battles that happened before all that. During the world wars whole europe has raped and killed innocents such as children, during vietnam many americans have raped and killed innocent ppl and children. Russia has killed and raped, china has killed and raped,...

Even us 'civilized' people have done all that, nothing to be ashamed about, i'm not afraid to say that. Why should i?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also i heard a story when japanese army took an town they rape all the women there,the youngest was like 7 and the oldest was like 60 something. <span id='postcolor'>

Suuuuuuuure, i've heard so many stories in my life...

Anyway, better get back on topic now

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 07 2003,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ne shows a mind that is probably enjoying the act, an act which would need a great deal of vengeance/spite and hatred to commit.

Personally, I believe the second is in effect worse than the first. It takes a corrupt, fucked up being to do that, while the first only takes a weak minded person to press a button.<span id='postcolor'>

Sure, but perhaps there's a reason why some soldiers feel the urge for revenge. For example (don't start bashing me, i just use this example cuz i saw it on TV a while ago), the soldiers in Vietnam that killed civilians after these soldiers were attacked during the TET offensive... Why do you think they attacked civilians? Not because they're monsters but just because they were angry.

Most of the time there's a reason why some people react very aggressive... Probable the same for all the killing during the wars...