Stalingrad

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and not only doesn't it work, but it has a nasty habit of leaving huge numbers of people killed in its wake.

<span id='postcolor'>

That and a long line of dictators and oppressive governments in:

China, Cuba, Russia, Cambodia, Romania, East Germany, Vietnam, shall I go on?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Feb. 04 2003,05:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and not only doesn't it work, but it has a nasty habit of leaving huge numbers of people killed in its wake.

<span id='postcolor'>

That and a long line of dictators and oppressive governments in:

China, Cuba, Russia, Cambodia, Romania, East Germany, Vietnam, shall I go on?<span id='postcolor'>

You forget that the dictators that preceeded the communists in Cuba and Vietnam were no less opressive...just US friendly.....but like I said....not what this thread is for....

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 04 2003,05:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Feb. 04 2003,05:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and not only doesn't it work, but it has a nasty habit of leaving huge numbers of people killed in its wake.

<span id='postcolor'>

That and a long line of dictators and oppressive governments in:

China, Cuba, Russia, Cambodia, Romania, East Germany, Vietnam, shall I go on?<span id='postcolor'>

You forget that the dictators that preceeded the communists in Cuba and Vietnam were no less opressive...just US friendly.....but like I said....not what this thread is for....<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly.

The men who fought and died in Stalingrad fought for their homes, and to stop the tyrrany of Hitler. Never ever forget that the Slavs suffered heavily under Hitler as well, in the labour camps.

You may not agree with Stalin, but in 1943, he was OUR 'bastard' and at the very least an erstwhile ally. So there is nothing wrong with raising a glass of vodka to the men of the USSR that blunted the tide of Nazi aggression at Stalingrad.

And even if the more single minded around here might be offended, I think it's also a time to remember the men of the German 6th army that fought and died there. They may have been the agressors, and serving the evil that was Hitler, but they fought and died for their nation. And while they may not exactly deserve respect, they at least deserve to be remembered.

[bn880 5]

I made it just before 240.

It was an ultimate sacrifice what happened in Stalingrad... hopefully one day in the future Russia will get back on its feet sort of speak and reap the rewards of the sacrifice made at Stalingrad.

It seems like Russians never had it very easy, and they never made anyone elses life easy either.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You forget that the dictators that preceeded the communists in Cuba and Vietnam were no less opressive...just US friendly.....but like I said....not what this thread is for....

<span id='postcolor'>

True, but I guess one kind of tyranny only leads to another, with the 'liberators' becoming the tyrants.

Oh, BTW. I would hardly consider the German democracy before Hitler to be opressive in any way.

You see? That's why I don't own IL2 yet. I don't like the idea of fighting for a dictatorship, wether it be real or electronic.

[Tovarish 0]

nm

[HellToupee 0]

y dou view communism as bad its differnt it takes the idea everyone is equal and trys to make everyone equal, the russians belived in their country they belived in communism they wernt trying to escape to the west, russian is worse off now than when it was communist, a farmer that helped sum New Zealanders makea new axel for their bike ( they had be riding across europe from russia to mongolia to china) said before we had little freedom and money, now we have no money and all the freedom we could want. The system is different to demoracy it isnt bad but is hard to get right dont knock the systems look at what the primary goal of the system was. As far as ive seen everyone labels communism evil( i am not a communist tho so dont call me a biased communist)

[HellToupee 0]

Germany could never have defeated the USSR, cant rember who said to stalin you can retreat to the urals and you will stil win. Russia was too big, it had many more numbers than the germany and produced things at a much greater rate, russian tank production 1943 was 1200 tanks a month, german was 400, their airforce after getting beat into the ground was starting to gain confidence and better planes than the germans. The germans could have gottin much further with out hitler in charge but i dont belive they would haave won. The war in the west helped but the bombing campain wasnt as effective as people think, german production contined to increase until late 1944.

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HellToupee @ Feb. 04 2003,07:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">y dou view communism as bad its differnt it takes the idea everyone is equal and trys to make everyone equal, the russians belived in their country they belived in communism they wernt trying to escape to the west, russian is worse off now than when it was communist, a farmer that helped sum New Zealanders makea new axel for their bike ( they had be riding across europe from russia to mongolia to china) said before we had little freedom and money, now we have no money and all the freedom we could want. The system is different to demoracy it isnt bad but is hard to get right dont knock the systems look at what the primary goal of the system was. As far as ive seen everyone labels communism evil( i am not a communist tho so dont call me a biased communist)<span id='postcolor'>

i don't believe communism is inharitly evil, but i deffinitly believe the leaders were very corrupt. a friend of my family recently went to Moscow, can't remeber what but it was about but it had to do w/ her religion. any way she told me that the government owned apartments would have 1 toilet per floor. as many as maybe 20 people if not more would be sharring this same toilet. the apartment rooms them selves were basicly at most 3 room total. she even told me that during the Soviet Era, there were these factories that would have people purposly make faulty combustion engines that would probaly not even work just so that the government could keep the people worry free about what their government is doing. they would either scrap the engines or sell them to other factories to use to either rebuild into something usefull or for spare parts and pocket most of the money and give the remainder to the factory workers. my Art Professor had also told me of his stay in Poland just how hard life was there. it would be common for the classroom to be at 50 degrees. for lunch, the students would have to bring 1 small peice of food like one will bring in a apple, another some crackers, another a peice of bread, somebody else will bring in bit of cheese and my teacher told me he would bring some tea, and everybody would devide it up and that was lunch. they weren't able bring a complete lunch from home because they either needed what food for their families or simply couldn't afford to eat like that. and when people say how great communism is by how they are trying to promote equal ship, well no arguement there, everybody was equal all right. they were all poor. only people who would ever have confrontable living would be those who's parents and other next of kin had a bright career in the Soviet Service.

[HellToupee 0]

yes it wasnt lead the best, but many people refered to communism as evil, russia wasnt evil just stalin wasnt the best but it was the people as a whole you look at.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Feb. 03 2003,22:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only thing he constantly he repeats was: the british killed germans for defending their freedom, so did the french, the russians and the americans. And what did I kill for?<span id='postcolor'>

He killed to survive like all soldiers do. Leaders can deliver speeches about justification and defending the freedom and stopping evil be it Hitler, Stalin or Osama bin Laden, but in the end, soldiers fight and kill to go home.

[ZIKAN 0]

Anyone who has read Beevor's book 'Stalingrad', should certainly try to read the follow up book clalled  'Berlin'.

It shows that the German defeat at Stalingrad was the turning point in the war, and Hitler's demise.

The death and suffering the German forces brought with them when they invaded the USSR, was certainly avenged by the Soviet Forces when they pushed onwards to Berlin.

If anyone is interested:The Army Museum at Victory Park (Commemorating victory in the Great Patriotic War) in Moscow is worth a visit if you ever get a chance to go there. It very impressive. Lots of information, photos, dioramas,maps, weapons and memoribilia that gives you a view of the war as experianced by the Russians. When you see the the lists of the fallen its very humbling indeed.

I have never been to Volgograd, but plan to visit sometime this year.

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Feb. 04 2003,12:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If anyone is interested:The Army Museum at Victory Park (Commemorating victory in the Great Patriotic War) in Moscow is worth a visit if you ever get a chance to go there. It very impressive. Lots of information, photos, dioramas,maps, weapons and memoribilia that gives you a view of the war as experianced by the Russians. When you see the the lists of the fallen its very humbling indeed.

I have never been to Volgograd, but plan to visit sometime this year.<span id='postcolor'>

little bit offtopic:

i have been in the airforce museum in moscow as a little kid. it was very impressive! Migs and Hinds standing around and some helicopters even had some dirt from afghanistan on them.

although the russian people never had much freedom in the times of comunism and the soviet union had very ineffective industry and economy, the people had a higher standard of live in the 70ies and 80ies than now. but the fragility of the system was recognized first when it broke down.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (desantnik @ Feb. 03 2003,01:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was a battle of demotivated, underfeeded, exhausted men without bullets.<span id='postcolor'>

I would say that is a bit untrue since the Russians were generally highly motivated by one form or another. Plus if this was the death grip anybody would do everything his body would allow to fight back. I dont think the Russian soldiers suffered from demorelization nearly as much as the Germans.<span id='postcolor'>

In the beginning they probable did, cuz Germany kicked Russia's ass at first... After a while Russia started using other tactics, this resulted in them being able to fight back => more motivated soldiers on the Russian side...

[DarkLight 0]

The basic idea of communism is very nice, but it's extremely hard to use it in an effective way. That probable is why so many people fear it, it's a nice idea, but it can destroy a country because it's almost impossible to use in a government without getting in trouble.

My grandpa was in the resistance, he did a lot of stuff that most people would never do, he doesn't talk a lot about it and i don't ask him questions. He knows stuff that only one other person knows on this whole planet, that person's probable already died by now, he knows top secret stuff that only a very small amount of people were allowed to know.

He has told me some stories about what he did, they're all very impressive. I sometimes wonder how it's possible that he was never executed.

If you want to hear one of his stories, i'll post them...

I don't really understand why so many people seem to feel a bit disgusted towards the Russian soldiers that once fought there. Everyone keeps talking about the jews that were killed and all the more known countries that lost a large amount of men. But none of that can be compared to the amount of Russians that died. I have 4 videos of Operation Barbarossa (a total of about 4 hours, from the first till the last day) and if i remember correct, the red army lost 10 to 12 million soldiers...

No doubt about it, they deserve some more respect...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Feb. 04 2003,16:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (desantnik @ Feb. 03 2003,016)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was a battle of demotivated, underfeeded, exhausted men without bullets.<span id='postcolor'>

I would say that is a bit untrue since the Russians were generally highly motivated by one form or another. Plus if this was the death grip anybody would do everything his body would allow to fight back. I dont think the Russian soldiers suffered from demorelization nearly as much as the Germans.<span id='postcolor'>

In the beginning they probable did, cuz Germany kicked Russia's ass at first... After a while Russia started using other tactics, this resulted in them being able to fight back => more motivated soldiers on the Russian side...<span id='postcolor'>

The Russians, even when they were being defeated, generally fought enthusiastically and ferociously, if not necessarily effectively. One only has to look at the last stand of the defenders of Maxim Gorky on the Crimean Peninsula to see that the Russians were never unmotivated. They were merely poorly led and badly equipped and trained for a long time. German soldiers, even when recollecting early victories, will always mention that one tank that still kept fighting after it was set on fire, or the pillbox that held them up for half a day.

[HellToupee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Feb. 05 2003,05:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The basic idea of communism is very nice, but it's extremely hard to use it in an effective way. That probable is why so many people fear it, it's a nice idea, but it can destroy a country because it's almost impossible to use in a government without getting in trouble.

My grandpa was in the resistance, he did a lot of stuff that most people would never do, he doesn't talk a lot about it and i don't ask him questions. He knows stuff that only one other person knows on this whole planet, that person's probable already died by now, he knows top secret stuff that only a very small amount of people were allowed to know.

He has told me some stories about what he did, they're all very impressive. I sometimes wonder how it's possible that he was never executed.

If you want to hear one of his stories, i'll post them...

I don't really understand why so many people seem to feel a bit disgusted towards the Russian soldiers that once fought there. Everyone keeps talking about the jews that were killed and all the more known countries that lost a large amount of men. But none of that can be compared to the amount of Russians that died. I have 4 videos of Operation Barbarossa (a total of about 4 hours, from the first till the last day) and if i remember correct, the red army lost 10 to 12 million soldiers...

No doubt about it, they deserve some more respect...<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly, people just seem to assume communist russia = evil, in il2 forums one guy posted he flys german planes because he cant stand teh idea of even flying for the commies, we found it quite strange he would rather fight on the nazi led side. Ihave read teh book stalingrad it was very good.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Feb. 04 2003,10:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but in the end, soldiers fight and kill to go home.<span id='postcolor'>

Nicely said...and I believe you are very right!

But for a person who believes in God this is a very tough point of concern. Many of those former german soldiers after the war feared to die because they were ashame and feared to justify their doings to god.

I worked in a home for old people because it was obligatory in my school. I met many old former soldiers that were realy realy afraid to die, and they were so ashame of themselves that they blushed when a priest came to visit them.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Feb. 04 2003,16:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (desantnik @ Feb. 03 2003,016)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was a battle of demotivated, underfeeded, exhausted men without bullets.<span id='postcolor'>

I would say that is a bit untrue since the Russians were generally highly motivated by one form or another. Plus if this was the death grip anybody would do everything his body would allow to fight back. I dont think the Russian soldiers suffered from demorelization nearly as much as the Germans.<span id='postcolor'>

In the beginning they probable did, cuz Germany kicked Russia's ass at first... After a while Russia started using other tactics, this resulted in them being able to fight back => more motivated soldiers on the Russian side...<span id='postcolor'>

Is there any theory out there that the approaches the Eastern Front issue "if there wouldnt have been a winter".

Seriously, just imagine what would have happened if Hitler would have waited a bit longer. I doubt that in case they would have started after the winter they wouldnt have been able to take Moscow!

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Exactly, people just seem to assume communist russia = evil, in il2 forums one guy posted he flys german planes because he cant stand teh idea of even flying for the commies, we found it quite strange he would rather fight on the nazi led side. Ihave read teh book stalingrad it was very good.<span id='postcolor'>

Nah, Stalinist Russia = Evil. The guy was worse than Hitler, and they both showed utter contempt for human life.

Stalingrad was a good book, but I recommend you pick up 'Berlin' as well. Same author, and as good or better than Stalingrad.

[desantnik 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I have 4 videos of Operation Barbarossa (a total of about 4 hours, from the first till the last day) and if i remember correct, the red army lost 10 to 12 million soldiers...

<span id='postcolor'>

You do not remember quite correctly, There were 10 -13 million soviet civilians killed/slaughtered during the war and 8-10 million Soviet soldiers/armed forces killed in the war. The figures can never be estimated closely but the most recent numbers estimate that there were anywhere from 25 to 30 million Soviet people killed.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

and a great share of those civillians were thrown into battle with a farmers-fork and ended up as cannon-fodder

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really understand why so many people seem to feel a bit disgusted towards the Russian soldiers that once fought there.  Everyone keeps talking about the jews that were killed and all the more known countries that lost a large amount of men.  But none of that can be compared to the amount of Russians that died.  I have 4 videos of Operation Barbarossa (a total of about 4 hours, from the first till the last day) and if i remember correct, the red army lost 10 to 12 million soldiers...  

No doubt about it, they deserve some more respect...<span id='postcolor'>

The thing was, when the Jews were set free, they didn't attempt to exterminate every German they came across.

Not only did the Red Army commit the biggest mass rape in recent history, (Researched and documented in the book 'Berlin' ), but they shot pretty much every German male (Fascist bandits come as young as 8 it appears! ) they came across. Out of 150,000 Pows taken at Stalingrad, 1,500 came back alive, ten years later!

I could go on, but in short, it sickens me that people keep praising the Soviet forces for the 'good' they did. This was general policy for all the armed forces! Even the regular German Army had guide lines in the Eastern front, rape could get you courtmartialed. In the Red Army it was actively encouraged!

I suggest you read 'Berlin'. It will certainly temper your views on the Red Army.

[zverushka 0]

I've read the book, "Berlin", it hasn't done anything of the sort.

"The biggest mass rape in history"? Wrong. The germans did FAR more damage.

What are you trying to prove anyway? That the EVIL EVIL RUSSKIES THAST DID NOTHING IN THE WARRR JUSTB NRAAEPED BEAUTIFUL BLONDE GIRLS AS YOUNG AS 1?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the Red Army it was actively encouraged!

<span id='postcolor'>

Oh please. Get me a source on this. Often times the veteran troops of the guard's formations would prtect the german civilians from the green peasents from eastern siberia

[Badgerboy 0]

If you give me till tomorrow, I'll even dig out a copy of the directive drafted by STAVKA.

Russian propoganda even encouraged it. 'Strip the fascists of their womanhood' ring any bells. That bastard was as nasty a Geobbels.

Berlin, contained two bloody chapters about the rape in eastern Germany! Pages of it! Most of it comes from leaked, or declassified Red Army documents from the war. What about the 6 long pages about Russian women being raped when liberated from concentration camps?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What are you trying to prove anyway? That the EVIL EVIL RUSSKIES THAST DID NOTHING IN THE WARRR JUSTB NRAAEPED BEAUTIFUL BLONDE GIRLS AS YOUNG AS 1 <span id='postcolor'>

No, just trying to prove that both sides commited sickening acts against humankind, and should be acknowledged as such, not the 'heroic peoples army' marching to freedom.

I'm not sure which version of the book you have, I hope its not the 'Politically Reliable' version.