theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 Remember the Canadian ground force troops killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame? Well, if USAF regulations allowed use of these pills and this can easily lead to cloudy judgement, then whoever approved this process should be put on trial - not the delirious pilots. Do other armed forces use amphetamines for similar purposes? Aren't there safer and effective alternatives? No-Doze comes to mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oligo 1 Posted January 15, 2003 No Doze and similar drugs contain caffeine, ephedrine and such stimulants. These give you jitters and shakes, so I don't think doping fighter pilots with those is an answer either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 15 2003,08:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do other armed forces use amphetamines for similar purposes?<span id='postcolor'> One of the divers in my platoon was caught using caffeine pills during long dives. He got a severe reprimand and was almost kicked out of the unit. They said that central stimuling drugs are a big no-no when you are handling weapons because you can become nervous and trigger happy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 15 2003,09:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No Doze and similar drugs contain caffeine, ephedrine and such stimulants. These give you jitters and shakes<span id='postcolor'> Well, that would have caused them to miss the intended target. Â EDIT: I wasn't aware that caffeine, taken within reasonable doses, can be such an impairment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiNs_Da_Smoka 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 15 2003,09:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">EDIT: I wasn't aware that caffeine, taken within reasonable doses, can be such an impairment.<span id='postcolor'> Indeed it is. An old friend of mine got into a horrible car accident after taking two mini-thins and a good little amount of no-doze, both of which can be bought at the nearest gas station. I don't recall what those pilots where on, but regardless of what it is, occaisonally it can really impair your better judgment. But in a way, i can KINDA see why they might feed the pilots these things. Having taken a handfull of no-doze before (on a bet, i'm not that big of a retard) i got into a fight later, not by my choice. I have to admit, i was really on my toes and my reflexes took over like i have never seen before. And needless to say, i won the fight. My point is, sometimes, under certain situations, i can definately see how it can be an aide instead of an impairment. [edit] Ok, i said "Having taken a handfull of no-doze before (on a bet, i'm not that big of a retard) " and that makes me seem like even more of a retard for excepting the bet. Just like to clarify, there were circumstances that made me take that bet, but i will not explain because its off-topic. Just trying to save a little face here. [/edit] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 15, 2003 I read once that each pilotless Predator drone mission is supported by ~60 people huddled in front of umpteen monitors etc.  And that's for a subsonic aircraft on recon with  minimal payload, if any.  Perhaps this friendly fire incident will become part of a strong argument for developing unmanned fighter jets and even bombers.  Afterall, is there anything a pilot can see from a cockpit that could not be more accurately rendered back in a bunker across a real-time datalink? By the way, much of the AI technology required for this will probably come from the gaming industry. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IceFire 0 Posted January 15, 2003 The reason that is not a good idea is because all these unmanned planes are still controlled from the ground by experienced pilots. Many pilots are strongly against this since they would be forced to stop doing the thing they love and trained their lives to do, to pilot a unmanned plane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cam0flage 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 15 2003,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do other armed forces use amphetamines for similar purposes?<span id='postcolor'> This is a bit different situation, but I remember there was a lot of talk in Finnish newspapers a few years ago when someone found out that the Finnish Defence Forces had manufactured some pills which contained amphetamine in order to make the soldiers capable coping with longer combat engagements. Another story related to drug usage in the frontline, my grandmother worked as a nurse in a field hospital during WWII in different eastern parts of Finland, she told me when the grand scale offensive of the Russians during the summer of '44 began, they had to work all day and night taking care of the wounded. As a result, most of her colleagues (I don't know about my grandmother) resorted to the use of morphine reserved for severely injured soldiers to keep themselves awake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cam0flage @ Jan. 15 2003,11:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">most of her colleagues (I don't know about my grandmother) resorted to the use of morphine reserved for severely injured soldiers to keep themselves awake.<span id='postcolor'> I am not aware of morphine being a stimulant. I had to take morphine once and, except for a midnight flight (and I was flying! ) to the ladies room, it was all sweet dreams before and after. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Major Fubar 0 Posted January 15, 2003 Years ago I drove my girlfriend to a nightclub. Since I was driving, I did the right thing, and only had 1 or 2 beers for the night. Anyway, I was really tired (late night the night before), so I kept popping No-Doze and drinking coke. By the end the night I was so wired and jittery I couldn't drive, so we had to get a taxi. Â Caffeine in excess can be quite detrimental to your mental and nervous state. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pukko 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 15 2003,08:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember the Canadian ground force troops killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame? Well, if USAF regulations allowed use of these pills and this can easily lead to cloudy judgement, then whoever approved this process should be put on trial - not the delirious pilots. Do other armed forces use amphetamines for similar purposes? Aren't there safer and effective alternatives? No-Doze comes to mind.<span id='postcolor'> Remember the Afgani civilians killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame?.... sorry, could'nt resist  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Jan. 15 2003,11:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame?....<span id='postcolor'> It would be interesting to investingate if any of the bombers were using similar drugs at the time but your article doesn't mention it. That's the subject of this thread, not the particular bombings of Canadians or Afgans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llauma 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Jan. 15 2003,10:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 15 2003,08:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember the Canadian ground force troops killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame? Well, if USAF regulations allowed use of these pills and this can easily lead to cloudy judgement, then whoever approved this process should be put on trial - not the delirious pilots. Do other armed forces use amphetamines for similar purposes? Aren't there safer and effective alternatives? No-Doze comes to mind.<span id='postcolor'> Remember the Afgani civilians killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame?.... sorry, could'nt resist  <span id='postcolor'> I agree. There's alot of talk about dead canadian, american and german soldiers etc... But not a word about the killed civilians in afghanistan. Ain't it a sick place we live in? For an example: How many of you know what happened the 13th of November 1985? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2003 Avon is right, this is a thread about if it good that combat pilots use drugs and not about the victims of the Afganistan bombings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 15 2003,11:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Avon is right, this is a thread about if it good that combat pilots use drugs and not about the victims of the Afganistan bombings.<span id='postcolor'> Darn PATs! (Political Agenda Trolls) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallenPaladin 0 Posted January 15, 2003 Well, my experiences... Some time ago I visited a disco in northern Germany. There was a big party going on with life acts and television and so on. That night I took some caffeine pills to stay fit for all the dancing. It worked quiet well, but at 9am all my muscles were hurting like hell, I had tunnel-view and I felt like I had to puke. Unfortunately right then they played the Blade title and we had to go dancing on the bar tables again  To sum this up I have to say caffeine works if you want to stay up for a veeeery long time, but nonetheless your ability to concentrate decreases rapidly. I wouldn`t want to fight for my life in such a condition. Another thing I did another time when I had to drive 350km at 11pm was to buy me all the Red Bull, stuff and Cold Coffee stuff at the next tank stop. I drank maybe 6 or 7 and drove onto the highway. My colleagues were sleeping in the back of my car and I had to concentrate on driving. Well, all that expensive stuff really kept me awake, but not the way it should... The only reason I didn`t fell asleep while driving, listening to loud techno music to stay awake, was that I had to piss like an elk!! And right then there was no parking place or Truck Stop with a toilette!!  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Major Fubar 0 Posted January 15, 2003 What ever happened to that pilot who severed the ski-lift cable and killed those people? I can't remember where it happened - Europe? - about 2 or 3 years ago... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Jan. 15 2003,12:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What ever happened to that pilot who severed the ski-lift cable and killed those people? I can't remember where it happened - Europe? - about 2 or 3 years ago...<span id='postcolor'> Italy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llauma 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Jan. 15 2003,11:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What ever happened to that pilot who severed the ski-lift cable and killed those people? I can't remember where it happened - Europe? - about 2 or 3 years ago...<span id='postcolor'> This is about it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Jan. 15 2003,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reason that is not a good idea is because all these unmanned planes are still controlled from the ground by experienced pilots. Â Many pilots are strongly against this since they would be forced to stop doing the thing they love and trained their lives to do, to pilot a unmanned plane.<span id='postcolor'> The point is that if a pilot cannot do his job effectively enough without drugs then the task has become too great for a single person. Â So why not replace him with a control team if/when the technology exists? The pilots in question thought they were under attack and probably responded too quickly. Â The remote control team of an unmanned fighter could have at least assessed the threat more carefully without concern for their own lives. Twenty years ago, air traffic controllers blocked the introduction of ACAS (aircraft collision avoidance system) technology because it would cost jobs that they'd trained all their lives for. Â ACAS eventually won, but only after more lives were lost. Â So I don't accept your argument about preserving the pilot's joy of flying at the expense of infantry or civilian lives. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oligo 1 Posted January 15, 2003 Here are some spider webs made by spiders on different drugs: Notice how caffeine really messes up the insect. Of course ephedrine is still more kicking than caffeine. So far, the best way to avoid falling to sleep when you're flying a combat mission is to get a hefty amount of sleep before the mission. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 15 2003,12:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Notice how caffeine really messes up the insect.<span id='postcolor'> /avon places cups of latte around the office floor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted January 15, 2003 At least the fly would die laughing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 15 2003,11:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here are some spider webs made by spiders on different drugs:<span id='postcolor'> That's a classic one. The article in Nature (magazine) where this was (I think) first featured had some more drugs. I'll see if I can find it. Edit: Here it is: Nets made by spiders fed on drug dosed flies web of a spider on LSD web of a spider on mescaline web of a spider on hashish web of a spider on caffeine Just Say No: web of a drug-naive spider Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted January 15, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 15 2003,12:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> web of a spider on hashish<span id='postcolor'> That must have been one tiny joint! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
