Patton vs. monty

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Seeing as how we have a bit of cross-Atlantic animosity these days, and seeing as how I saw Patton (again) on TV today, I thought a nice little argument to revisit would be "Who is/was the better commander: George Patton, or Bernard Montgomery?" Or, to put a finer point on this sucker, "Which man was more important to the Allies victories in North Africa, Sicily, and Western Europe?"

For those of you who aren't already well-versed on this historic rivalry, I've provided a couple educational links so you can get your ass up to speed.

Quick synopsis of Monty's experience during WWII

A synopsis of Patton's education and war experience

Timeline of WWII in Europe (scroll down past the antebellum stuff)

Keep it clean, folks.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 05 2003,04:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Keep it clean, folks.<span id='postcolor'>

yes. i'm going to be vigilant on this one.

i'm expecting some mature discussion about the two man, not about how other country sucked and etc.

[NavyEEL 0]

clearly Patton was more important because they made a movie with his name

[Tovarish 0]

Christ I must be tired! For a second there I thought it said "Python vs. Monty" . That's it, I'm going to bed.

[NavyEEL 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 05 2003,06:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christ I must be tired! For a second there I thought it said "Python vs. Monty" . That's it, I'm going to bed. <span id='postcolor'>

lmao yeah when i read the topic i thought "how in the hell can they compare Patton to Monty Python???"

[MrMilli 0]

Monty

Troops morale is getting low

He:

visits the front, reassures all the men under his command, keeps his Officers mind on the objective

Patton:

GIVE EM A SLAP!

[vade_101 0]

Hmm, its a trickey one thats for sure .. one thing you do have to remember about the two of them is the different situations that they faced .. while patton had the almost unlimited resources of the USA (who had only limited mobilisation and the by far the largest, untouched economy in the world) the UK was rapidly running out of men and materiel and had to be much more cautious about how it's forces were employed.

Given that i think i would probably have to go for Monty .. his campaigns in North Africa (apart from the slightly ropey start) were often brilliant, and he handled a difficult position in Normandy (where the British/Canadian forces were facing the difficult terrian around Caen and the vast majority of the German Armoured units) very well. if he was guilty of anything it was beliving his own propaganda. Having said that however Patton certinally injected a much needed note of Dynamism into the allied campaigns (especially in northern Europe) without which it seems unlikely that the War would have ended as soon as it did.

[Blake 0]

To sum it up, both were needed. Wouldn't have two Pattons either his relentless mentality would have led to severe losses perhaps on some occasions. But two Monty's would have slowed things down a bit too. They were good mix and both showed brilliance on the field.

BTW. Those sources linked above are very limited. There is no mention of Monty's role in the Battle of the Bulge which lead to the accusations from Churchill and Brooke. As the Germans attacked at the Bulge, Monty took overall command of allied forces in the area contributing to the swift recovery from massive German offensive. He later arrogantly claimed that without him Americans at the Bulge would have faced certain defeat which led to accusations and near-sacking said in the text. I suggest getting better source on both Generals for people to base their choices.

But anyway, unsurprisingly Americans don't seem to recognize Monty's role at the Bulge which they consider their own battle.

[nolips71 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 05 2003,06:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">clearly Patton was more important because they made a movie with his name <span id='postcolor'>

what about. and i was montys double? haha a film about monty. monty was a higher rank a better commander and overall better

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 04 2003,07:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christ I must be tired! For a second there I thought it said "Python vs. Monty" . That's it, I'm going to bed. <span id='postcolor'>

Actually, i thought exactly the same thing...

[nolips71 0]

away with most of you. you are as dense are mercury go back to bed JOKE

[Crush 0]

Well, i've seen "Patton" far more than once and I am currently reading "A Genius for War" by Carlo d'Este.

So you could say I know quite a bit about General Patton.

My knowledge about Fieldmarshall Montgomery is however ... limited.  

When Patton assumed command over II US Corps, Monty had already chased the Afrikakorps across half the desert. In Tunisia, both the British Eighth Army and the II Corps fought some major battles and drove the Afrikakorps out of Africa.

Overall, I don't think the Tunisian Campaign delivers good "comparing stuff", because Patton basically fought just one major engagement (El Guettar) where he could show his true potential.

I'd say, the African Campaign (from El Alamein to Tunis) clearly goes to Monty. The II US Corps had it's share in the Tunisian Campaign, but as I stated earlier, Patton couldn't really show his talents. (BTW, General Bradley did some extraordinary things with II Corps, in the end of the Campaign while overcoming extremly tough resistance in the mountainious north of Tunis and capturing the harbor of Bizerte.)

Sicily is a whole different story. Both Armies started in the south of the island. While Monty was going the "straight way" to Messina, he encountered stiff mountain resistance in the Vesuvi area. And, as we all know, Patton was pissed at the idea, that he was supposed to protect Monty's back.

So, he ignored orders and went to the northwestern corner of the island and captured Palermo. From there, he started his run for Messina.

Meanwhile, Monty slowly overcame the resistance an re-launched his offensive.

Now, they both raced towards Messina, and each one wanted to be the first to capture Messina and liberate Sicily.

On his way to Messina, it was Patton's turn to encounter stiff mountain resistance(when I recall correctly, by the Hermann Goering Paratrooper Division). He overcame them quickly by launching amphibious assaults behind the resistance pockets. This was also the time, the two infamous slapping incidents occured.

In the end, Patton was the first to Messina (by a couple of hours). So I'd say Patton clearly outruled Monty on Sicily.

But thanks to his high temper and the fact that the American Public found out about the two slapped soldiers, Patton served as a decoy for the German General Staff, while Bradley and Monty landed in Normandy.

In Normandy, Monty faced the brunt of the German Armored Devisions in Caen, while Bradley had some serious infantry combat in his area of the beachhead. Patton first showed up on the continent, shortly after the Americans broke out of the beachhead. In this moment, the famed Third US Army came into existence.

Patton pushed the 3rd down until he reached Bretagne. There, he splitted his troups. Some went to the west to liberate Bretagne, while he with the remainder of the 3rd swiveld east.

About this time, the Germans started a counterattack and tried to cut the 3rd Army off from the remainder of the US Forces. The Allies tried to meet the threat by cutting of the German Army. Patton was ordered to go south of the German Army and then he should go to the north, where he would meet Monty's troops and cut the Germans off. Patton did his part, but Monty was still struggling with the Germans in Caen. So he was unable to close the ring and a huge part of the German Army escaped behind the Somme. This was the first time I noticed Patton accusing Monty of hesitation. However, Monty faced some serious resistance in Caen.

Here begins the story of Patton's race across France while Monty and his 21st Army Group fought their way towards Belgium.

Due to the unexpected fast advance of both Army Groups, the Allied Expeditionary Force faced a grave situation. All the supply still had to be brought all the way from the Normandy beaches. They only had enough capabilities to supply one Army Group.

Facing this, Monty made up Operation Market Garden. A daring plan, to say the least. It had the great advantage, that if Operation Market Garden would have been a success, the industrial heart of Germany, the Ruhr-area, would have been subject to allied ground offensives. The remainder of the german troops in Belgium and the Netherlands would also have been almost cut off.

But Operation Market Garden was a failure. The Red Devils in Arnhem got badly choped up and the road of advance came under attack from both sides. So, now Monty didn't have his surprise attack into Germany but had to face the battle for Antwerp and the river islands. In the meantime, Patton got stuck in the mud of Lorraine.

Let's jump to the Battle of the Bulge, 'cause I'm getting tired around here.  

Patton turned his army around and covered the distance to the bulge in less time with more men then everybody thought possible. Monty however, assuming command over the troops on the northern part of the Bulge, somehow didn't get started with the counterattack. I remember, that the US Commanders in the northern area were very pissed about not getting off the leash, to put it in friendly terms.  

In the end, the Battle of the Bulge became the story of the 101st Airborne under the command of General "Nuts" McAuliffe. (Band of Brothers, anyone? Those were really great episodes    )

I think, you can honestly say, that the Bulge was an American Battlefield. By holding Bastogne the advancing German Armies were denied the vital road junction, so that this last ditch (and hopeless) offensive was doomed to a quick end.

After the Bulge, Patton cleared out the Palatinate and Monty finally liberated the Netherlands. Once both were in Germany, there aren't any significant comparisons possible. Patton cleared out the southern part while Monty took care of the northern part. ( Simplified!!! )

On the continent both commanders had their moments, and I would't dare to declare a "winner" on that part. (To be comletely honest, I don't know the Operations of the 21st Army Group well enough.)

Patton and Montgomery were both bigger than live personalities. They both shaped the Army's of their respective countries and the way they fought WWII.

In the end, Patton and his big mouth were his own greatest enemy. Eisenhower could have kicked him three times for something Patton said or did.

Monty just took his mouth a bit too full after the Bulge...

That were just my two cents. I hope, i didn't forget anything significant...  

[Paratrooper 0]

I don't think it really matters, and as both men had great military success, and were loved by their men, It is hard to call betwene them. Monty was Cautious, Patton was bold, they complemented each other.

As for both of them slapping their men, I don't think Monty ever struck anyone. But I am happy to be proved wrong, even in suprised.

[Oligo 1]

I don't know about his strategic skills, but I'd never ever want to serve under Patton. That man was a megalomaniac and an egoist. Remember his great idea of attacking russians after german surrender? Now there was an idea which would have resulted in some serious slapping of US and UK.