Jump to content
tinter

Thoughts On Creator DLC and How It Has Mislead

Recommended Posts

Congratulations on the initial release to Julian and Lars. I can see what a great opportunity it is to get to make this as a DLC instead of a mod. I'm really excited to see what you further do with this DLC.
I have respect for modders and the developers of Arma and the work they do. I love this series myself and I'm sure love for this series is part of what has driven much of this new DLC.

That said my thoughts on the new DLC are really mixed and a little disappointed. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but my main gripe is that I have to have so much doubt.

When this DLC was announced, I was really excited. Just the thought of getting to play with this new content like action figures or dolls to dress up in arsenal, filled me with a glee. Which isn't even considering the scenarions made, I would make and others would make with the content, or the mods that it will inspire. There wasn't much information to go off on, other than the store page, which gave an outline of the expected content, and the creator DLC page https://arma3.com/dlc/creator. What particularly struck out to me is the question of:
"What is Bohemia's involvement?

Bohemia provides continuous feedback to the developers, assists with the Quality Assurance (testing) process, and offers legal, mastering, publishing, and promotional support."

This to me, meant that we could expect the same level of quality as other DLC content has. Much can be said about the vanilla and earlier DLC content of arma. The future setting isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I really think that there's not any mods that feel as well polished as vanilla and DLC content. And for this reason, I sometimes prefer to play without mods.

Now this DLC has launched, and I like a lot about it, but my main problem is that I can only conclude it's a work-in-progress, and I didn't expect it to be a work-in-progress. It was quite a bit shocking to see the state of some of the content, like the SPW-40 that is near uselss with only the picture-in-picture view animated at 5 fps, or the SPW-60 that is completely useless because you can't see the picture-in-picture view. It was a little gradual process that ranged from disappointment in the quality, eventually leading to me concluding that this isn't a finished version. Which is fine, if I had known all along that this was an unfinished version, but I can only draw my own conclusions that it is.
Now everything is always in progress now a days, with being able to patch games through the internet. But my assumption going into it was that it was a 1.0 release where the content was mostly finished. Without being able to properly define what exactly that entails, I'll just summarize that my expectations were wildly different compared to what was delivered. It feels like there's been a big miscommunication.

So now afther the "shock" so-to-speak, what are my thoughts then? Well I have no doubt that there will be further work to improve it and that it will turn out better with time. Hell it was the same for Arma 3 itself, looking back I can't believe I ever tried to use the 2D editor.
But still I have some doubt. Doubting my own expectations of quality, not knowing what is actually the view of something being finished. There are lots of little things that irk me now, which could just be fixed, but what of it will actually be changed? For something like the SPW-60, I'm sure there will be changes, but what about the new uniforms and vests that clip with a lot of Bohemia content (Clipping is always an issue, but how much is gonna be tolerable? Putting stuff together in different ways is part of the appeal of new gear for me.) What about the reload animations that are for the most part fine, but still is a little janky? They feel 90% done, but is 90% enough? There are many small touches that make it feel different from Bohemia's content, but I don't have a sense of what is going to be changed or what is going to be kept? I could list out many issues (some are maybe just personal to me), but I doubt that'd be constructive, I'm sure most you'd already know about.

What I wish is just a sense of where this DLC is going to go. As a DLC, rather than a paid mod, I'd expect it to be on par with other DLCs, fair enough if it takes time, but just get there in the end. It's just that I have seen no promise that this is the level of polish that you strive for. And with images like this https://arma3.com/assets/img/post/images/spredsheet.jpg I doubt more. Model interior not required? While I've been skeptic of vehicle interiors (Amount of work vs. what is gained), this is not leaving it on the same level as other DLCs. I hope it turns out good, but I'm just worried that it's going to leave out the features or polish that Bohemia's content has. Which would mean that this goes from the anticipated third-party collaboration, to a mere paid mod.

Sorry if it comes out dramatic, but it's just me feeling a little lost as to what I should expect. I hope this will not come off too harshly, I just don't think low expectations are doing anyone a favour. We all want Arma to be the best it can be. So keep going and make it even better, please.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tinter said:

reload

I think this post is best read alongside the rest of the feedback in GM DLC thread: 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point isn't really about the errors in themselves, I only cared at first because I didn't expect it to be a work-in-progress, but that's fair even though I really think they should've made that clear. I'm sure everything will be made better with time, a lot of stuff fixed, but now I'm just worried if it's gonna be up to DLC standards. And considering this is being sold as a DLC, that's what I, and I know many others, expected the level of quality to match. We just have no statement as to what their plan is, or what to expect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, tinter said:

Bohemia provides continuous feedback to the developers, assists with the Quality Assurance (testing) process, and offers legal, mastering, publishing, and promotional support."

This to me, meant that we could expect the same level of quality as other DLC content has.

I think you made an expectation mistake with that line of thinking. BI said they would provide quality guidance, they did not say Creator DLC would exactly fit their own (sometimes very high) professional standard.

 

Quality wise I would expect something in between the existing well made mods and BI's owns stuff. And let's not forget: Arma has always been a wysiwyg development. Arma development has

known many struggles and even today it's easy to point out large quality differences in the official content reflecting struggles in the past. The hype train has crashed more than once, which is unnecessary if people would just be a little more patient and realistic.

 

I use wait-and-see with the official content and even a bit more so with the creator. In the end I believe buying all official DLC was worth it, let's see how it goes with this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, joostsidy said:

I think you made an expectation mistake with that line of thinking. BI said they would provide quality guidance, they did not say Creator DLC would exactly fit their own (sometimes very high) professional standard.

 

Quality wise I would expect something in between the existing well made mods and BI's owns stuff. And let's not forget: Arma has always been a wysiwyg development. Arma development has

known many struggles and even today it's easy to point out large quality differences in the official content reflecting struggles in the past. The hype train has crashed more than once, which is unnecessary if people would just be a little more patient and realistic. 

 

I use wait-and-see with the official content and even a bit more so with the creator. In the end I believe buying all official DLC was worth it, let's see how it goes with this.

I think this hype train crashing that you mention, could've just been avoided if Bohemia had been more specific about what they do and don't do. Who sets the standards?

Whether that line of thinking is a mistake, I can't say, but I can say I've seen people who share that line of thinking and others who disagree completely. Which is all the more reason that there should've been better communication about this. I think when they decide to charge money for this, then that sets the expectation that it'll be better than what you can get for free.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, tinter said:

then that sets the expectation that it'll be better than what you can get for free.

Hey you're moving the goal-posts! Before you said 'we could expect the same level of quality as other DLC content has.' 

 

I agree that it's fair to expect that it'll be better than what you can get for free (besides perhaps some exceptional exceptions). BI is indeed often late and vague in communications regarding new stuff, but part is that they burnt themselves in the past on releasing information too soon, basically making promises they couldn't keep. This created even bigger (longer?) crashing hype trains. BI's strategy is not perfect, but I can understand. That's why I'm kind of trying to spread the message of only releasing your feelings of hype when you can see the finished product. Because this has been the situation for years and I'm pretty sure it will be for years to come. I've been playing OFP / Arma for almost 20 years, but I would not buy Arma 4 pre-order for instance.

 

Full disclosure: I'm also responding to your post to keep just ahead of you in number of posts.. 😉

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, joostsidy said:

Hey you're moving the goal-posts! Before you said 'we could expect the same level of quality as other DLC content has.' 

 

I agree that it's fair to expect that it'll be better than what you can get for free (besides perhaps some exceptional exceptions). BI is indeed often late and vague in communications regarding new stuff, but part is that they burnt themselves in the past on releasing information too soon, basically making promises they couldn't keep. This created even bigger (longer?) crashing hype trains. BI's strategy is not perfect, but I can understand. That's why I'm kind of trying to spread the message of only releasing your feelings of hype when you can see the finished product. Because this has been the situation for years and I'm pretty sure it will be for years to come. I've been playing OFP / Arma for almost 20 years, but I would not buy Arma 4 pre-order for instance.

 

Full disclosure: I'm also responding to your post to keep just ahead of you in number of posts.. 😉

That's not moving the goal posts, since the official DLC is also better than what you get for free. That's a matter of opinion, but it's my opinion the quality from Bohemia has consistently been higher. That is entirely ignoring the amount of content, on purpose mind you.

 

I will say that after joining the discord and viewing the discussion with the developers, that I'm feeling more sure that this will eventually end up with a level of polish that I will be satisfied with. Seeing them talk about the work they're doing and collecting bug reports, responding personally to discussion, gives me a lot of faith in their ability to deliver work.

But it's just sort of hidden away, and I really am of the opinion that the release should've been marked as beta or been released on the dev branch first, to sate people's expectations.

 

I can entirely see how saying too much can also be a bad thing, but I don't really think that's a good argument to make. It's not a situation of 'say everything or nothing,' there's a middle ground and I think they missed it by not saying what state the initial release of the DLC will be in, and more importantly in my opinion, what they're doing moving forward and what the goal is.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry to say this. Most likely the creators are more intelligent, gifted, diligent and even sexier than I am.

But this DLC does in no way look like Bohemia's own/vanilla stuff. It looks, sounds and feels like home-made by amateurs (though on a level that I will never reach). For a home-made addon it's enormous. But for quite a pricy addon it's a joke. It's beyond my understanding how Bohemia could take this in its current state as an Arma-inherent, official, pricy addon. The only thing that's on Bohemias quality level is the exterior of the tanks. There are no interiors. The cars and bikes are... SORRY... ugly - inside and outside; and they drive s**t. The voice acting totally sounds like home-made. Tank crews clip through the tank. The uniforms are ugly or at best medium quality. You can not walk through many bushes. The towns look home-made. Even without any other 3rd-party mod or addon there is a big error message when opening the map in the editor. Lol. How can such a clearly visible error get into a release version?

 

I don't know what it is... but no addon/mod ever from Arma 1 to 3 matched the quality, feeling and optical smoothness and "rightness" of Bohemia's vanilla stuff, including this 3rd-party DLC. I don't understand how this could become inherently supported official Arma stuff. One reason may be that owners of the "all-future-DLCs-inclusive-version" have to pay for it, since it is clearly stated as a 3rd-party addon. I don't think that the "Bohemians" being responsible to declare this DLC to be official Arma content really and  inherently believe by heart that this DLC is as qualitative as other official Arma content. Something like "The Emperor's New Clothes" must have gone on there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't really understand this mentality. If a product arrives to market that I don't fancy or don't consider good value I just don't buy it, end of, I move on with my life and things that I do like or feel positive about. What's the pressing importance to making your dislike known?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the sake of Arma, let's hope they don't sign, officially support and publish more things that look and feel like a Workshop mod done by amateurs at home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Defunkt said:

Don't really understand this mentality. If a product arrives to market that I don't fancy or don't consider good value I just don't buy it, end of, I move on with my life and things that I do like or feel positive about. What's the pressing importance to making your dislike known?

 

 

Because providing negative feedback will hopefully get BI to do better with the next DLC.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

even RHS, ACE or ACRE would be worth to "spend" 20$ instead of this to get a "modern" arma in 2019. For Vanilla arma is very oldschool with his mechanics to handle multiplayer scenarios (VoIP for an example)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i would not say that the the communication was missleading, but i am still dissapointed, that the dlc does not have that high level of official arma 3 content.

 

it may be great for such a small team and maybe worth the price for some types of players, but for someone likes me - who prefers vanilla arma over modded arma simply because of the visual consistency and decent quality throughout - it's just not that appealing.

 

i guess i would have preferred a smaller scale of dlc (less assets, less missions), if that would have meant vanilla arma quality and consistency.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, snajdan said:

even RHS, ACE or ACRE would be worth to "spend" 20$ instead of this to get a "modern" arma in 2019. For Vanilla arma is very oldschool with his mechanics to handle multiplayer scenarios (VoIP for an example)

 

 

I think if you polled people about what DLC content they wanted,  the number one response would be, contemporary military assets.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personaly I do not think this DLC should of been released yet until it is 100% fit to play in a server, I have not been able to find any servers yet that provide this DLC.  I wonder is there any of the Bohemia team or DLC ever been in the Forces in the Cold war of the 1980's in germany ?, Iam sure this will be very Interesting question. ?.  Myself i Had 3 years over there then 1983-86 and i must say they where very enjoyable times as well. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldnt mind a free weekend to check things out myself prior to forking over the cash.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ANZACSAS Steven said:

I wouldnt mind a free weekend to check things out myself prior to forking over the cash.

Agreed. And to be honest, having played it on a free weekend, I wouldn't have bought it.

For me the standout asset in this was the terrain. I hope that in time, the other assets get the love they deserve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, today I paid £17 for ‘this dlc and it crashes arma 3 during the intro at the same place every time I try to play it and because I spent more than two hours trying different mods and things like that steam refuse to refund me my money so a complete waste of time and money for me so be cautious if you’re thinking of purchasing this dlc. Dave.

  • Confused 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×