accuracy Please make adequate accuracy for Tank AI-gunners, against air targets

[mickeymen 322]

Dear Developers!  I send this request here, because I don’t want to wait for years until it is noticed on the feedback,

There are always more chances to be noticed.

 

Please reduce fire accuracy of subordinate AI-gunner vs air-targets:

 

 

I'm not saying that a tank cannot shoot down a helicopter, but such a scheme -

 

one shot - killed,

one shot - killed,

one shot - killed -

 

is not normal.

 

The player inside the tank (commander) has the ability to kill helicopters from the first shot (120mm cannon), while other tanks (AI) will not shoot at 120mm a helicopter in generally! It turns out that when a player is in a tank and his opponent is a AI-helicopter, then the player has the advantage before AI (player can destroy the helicopter from the one-two shot). Or when a player in a helicopter and attacks a AI-tank, he again has the advantage! (since the AI in the tank will not shoot him)

 

As seems to me - All you need to do is to adjust the fire-accuracy (much lower) of the AI-gunner in the tank, against air targets, then it will explain why the AI does not attack the helicopters with the help of 120 mm - this is not effective. Or set it up so that the AI can also use ability fire helicopters.

 

If I am mistaken and such sniper-accuracy is possible in real life, then give the AI the same ability!

This will correct the deformation of abilities - Player/AI

 

Repro steps:

 

1. place in the map your tank (player commander)

2. place in the map enemy helicopters (must move in your direction)

3. run game and order to your gunner attack them

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

Idk man seems pretty realistic to me, modern tanks have laser technology where they can put the laser on the target, it gives them info

in terms of distance, and whatever else, and allows them to lead their targets.

 

   In Arma1 there was a mod  that did exactly this ----> http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=2217

NWD TankFCS

Watch the 2 videos there especially the top video he demonstrates the system and leads the heli and shoots it down with the main cannon.

 

Also an article ---> https://www.quora.com/Has-a-tank-ever-shot-down-a-helicopter-with-its-main-gun

 

 

[mickeymen 322]

52 minutes ago, Gunter Severloh said:

Idk man seems pretty realistic to me, modern tanks have laser technology where they can put the laser on the target, it gives them info

in terms of distance, and whatever else, and allows them to lead their targets.

 

   In Arma1 there was a mod  that did exactly this ----> http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=2217

NWD TankFCS

Watch the 2 videos there especially the top video he demonstrates the system and leads the heli and shoots it down with the main cannon.

 

Also an article ---> https://www.quora.com/Has-a-tank-ever-shot-down-a-helicopter-with-its-main-gun

 

 

 

Oh my God! 

 

If so, then why do troops need anti-air vehicles?

 

PS: Even if the 120 mm cannon is effective against Helicopters, why other tanks (AI) not using their 120 mm canons vs helicopters?

They will never use it.. 

 

What I showed in the my video seems to be a ravings of a madman, this should not be in real life. Perhaps a 120 mm cannon can destroy a helicopter, yes! but it should not be so efficient. Otherwise the troops would not need anti-air vehicles.

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

My post is after yours no need to quote my whole post i know what i said, not like were 10 pages deep use @ and my

name if you want to get my attention, or quote something specific that i said.

8 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

If so, then why do troops need anti-air vehicles?

Tanks aren't meant to fight helicopters is why, but they can, obviously from your video you can.

11 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

Even if the 120 mm cannon is effective against Helicopters, why other tanks (AI) not using their 120 mm canons vs helicopters?

Programing, but you can change that with AI mods or scripts. They will never use it because their programmed in the game not to, either directly or indirectly.

A mod or script can change that function.

 

According to the title of your thread you have "Please make the AI-Tank gunner adequate against air targets!"

You basically saying, make the AI Tank gunner proficient at killing air targets.

 

Then you say,  Please remove this nonsense from the game

So which is it?

 

Best retitle your OP so that you can be better understood what your asking the devs to change.

 

Maybe reword it to:     Please make the AI-Tank gunner inadequate against air targets!

or  Please make the AI-Tank gunner not able to shoot air targets with their main cannon!

which would be a bit more specific.

 

Devs wont change this because one person doesn't believe its realistic or what have you, they break the code for you, and then

you got 100 other players who prefer it the other way.

imo better to script it so that at least on your end when you do play and are in such a situation where there are tanks, planes, and helicopters

then the AI tanker wont engage the heli or planes with his main cannon but his mounted mg instead if he has one.

 

Just a thought and suggestion.

[mickeymen 322]

13 hours ago, Gunter Severloh said:

Devs wont change this because one person doesn't believe its realistic

 

Generally no desire to argue with you, dude) But why do you speak for everyone? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks so.

I just hope that the developers have some common sense. 

 

elementary reasons to think about what I'm talking about:

 

а) if tanks could have destroyed air-targets with such efficiency as we see in my video, then any army would in general not need Anti-Air Vehicles, but any army have a special Anti-Air Vehicles. It makes them meaningless, deprives them of their specialization

 

b) what is in Arma3 today in terms of game balance is cheating - a human player (tank-commander) can effectively destroy helicopters with tanks, while an AI players (!all tanks) will NEVER use his 120 mm cannon against air targets. Everyone can check it!  If we assume that in 2035 the tanks had set themselves apart to shoot down helicopters with sniper efficiency,  then let all the tanks (human player and ai) do it! In this case, there will be no claims. It will look strange, but at least there will be no cheating

 

с) Blurring classes - Anti-Air / Anti-Tank - does not make the game better, because each vehicle class or each weapon class will lose its purpose. We do not want AA-Missiles to destroy tanks, or AT-Missiles to capture an Air-targets!? I am sure the answer will be positive.

I think each specific weapon must have its own specialization. 120 mm canon this special weapon also. Its purpose is ground targets.

 

all that is needed is to only correct the accuracy (significantly reduce) or make it dependent on the current target speed.

 

[Beagle 684]

It's a matter of Speed and elevation. The FCS in a tank can actually without problem target a helicopter, thats was already the case back in the mid 80's. BUT, thats goes for slow moving, hovering and low targets, just like in the video. At speed above 100 kn and more than 2km out, there is little chance for a hit RL and in game. A hovering or slow moving helicopter at low altitude is to the Ground vehicle FCS just like another valid target. Autocannons are even better. No try to hit a Jet going 700 at 1000m with a MBT or IFV... no chance... that's what Air Defense systems are for.fun fact for you, Tankers train at shooting down helicopters in every army equiped with even closely modern armoured vehicles.  Thats includes MBTs and IFVs. It is also done RL and in game, that you can actually lock ATGMs on hovering helicopters. Thats the reason why Helicopters RL use pop up attacks and cover or stand off range. Its not the games fault that some players dont think of neither, but it is the games fault that AI does also not.

[EDcase 87]

AI accuracy seems about right in missions I play such as Domination.

[mickeymen 322]

1 hour ago, Beagle said:

It's a matter of Speed and elevation. The FCS in a tank can actually without problem target a helicopter, thats was already the case back in the mid 80's. BUT, thats goes for slow moving, hovering and low targets, just like in the video. At speed above 100 kn and more than 2km out, there is little chance for a hit RL and in game. A hovering or slow moving helicopter at low altitude is to the Ground vehicle FCS just like another valid target. Autocannons are even better. No try to hit a Jet going 700 at 1000m with a MBT or IFV... no chance... that's what Air Defense systems are for.fun fact for you, Tankers train at shooting down helicopters in every army equiped with even closely modern armoured vehicles.  Thats includes MBTs and IFVs. It is also done RL and in game, that you can actually lock ATGMs on hovering helicopters. Thats the reason why Helicopters RL use pop up attacks and cover or stand off range. Its not the games fault that some players dont think of neither, but it is the games fault that AI does also not.

 

Your arguments seem reasonable even to me! Yes! But wait!

 

Give at least a one helicopter (from four units) survive! At least let the shooter make at least a one mistake!

 

What do we see in my video?

 

Shot - hit, targets falls,

Shot, Killed,

Shot - Killed,

Shot Killed!!! 

 

It's absurd, don't you see? 

 

In addition, I many times saw my AI-gunner in a tank shoot down a helicopter at a more far distances and that does not go in the direction of the gunner, that moves to the side at full speed! Please do not force me to make a new videos, I am tired.

Quote

AI accuracy seems about right in missions I play such as Domination.

 

 

AI wil not use 120 mm canon vs helicopters and this is the second problem in my opinion. If I assume that I am wrong and the tanks can effectively kill helicopters, then why AI commanders of tanks in Arma3 don't know about it?

In this case, they must attack helicopters effectively, but this does not happen.

[Beagle 684]

It's not absurd  thats what a computer controlled fire control system FCS does....all you need to do in a modern MBT or IFV is slew crosshair over target, lase, wait 2 seconds, pull trigger = 90% first hit probability within 200m. Draftees can do that after just 8 weeks of training. And Tankers are not even consider to be the most clever in any army. The computers inside the tanks are the main source of heat. A modern MBT is a self propelled computer console. It has nothing to do with how things were in the 60's. Sensors and turret are even capable of autotrack and auto recognition these days. In another 15 years there will be probably no more crew inside.

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

5 hours ago, mickeymen said:

But why do you speak for everyone? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Not speaking for everyone, just pointing something out, and im sure theres many people who feel the same as you about this, no doubt,

though your the only one saying anything about it, which is nothing wrong with that, just maybe your more attentive to such things then others who feel the same but dont think

to say anything about it as you have.

     None the less its a decent point as to what your asking whether its realistic or not thats another story.

[mickeymen 322]

19 hours ago, Beagle said:

It's not absurd

 

Ok, then now let's remove the fire-miss while shooting from the game at all)  At war, the soldiers never miss

Let the player kill the every helicopters from first shot, while the AI-gunner of other tanks cannot fire at helicopter at all! 

I hope you will be happy

 

17 hours ago, Gunter Severloh said:

though your the only one saying anything about it

 

At this moment  this is so, just probably not all people have seen my post, maybe for many it is not a big problem and he does not want to support me.

There may be many reasons. But for me this is a big problem, because when I'm in a tank, I easily kill the helicopter, and when I'm in the helicopter, I also easily kill the tank! This is not normal - it turns out that the player dominates the AI in all situations.

 

You are all proving to me that I am wrong and modern fire-control systems are capable of such accuracy. Yes Ok, but none of you cannot explain me -

 

why in the Arma3 the AI of other tanks does not know that their tanks have such modern fire-control systems and why they does not know that their tanks are capable of firing at enemy helicopters and killing them from the first shot!? 

I say "does not know" because he does not use it.

 

Well, explain to me

 

[mickeymen 322]

I updated the main description.

 

I see two solutions for fire at 120 mm cannon vs Air-targets:

 

1. To Save a super accuracy of player subordinate AT-gunner (because there is a modern fire control system) and make the other AI (all ai-tanks) capable of firing helicopters also.

2. To reduce the accuracy of player subordinate AT-gunner against helicopters, the other AI (all ai-tanks) does not attack helicopters at all (as it is now), since this is not an effective method of attack.

 

Either of the two decisions will at least smooth the balance of the game and look logical.

 

IMHO

[a_killer_wombat 120]

In my eyes, the crux of the issue is the limitations in aircraft AI behaviour (particularly rotary wing). In a conventional war zone (state vs state), attack helicopters are very vulnerable to being shot down by all kinds of threats, including assets which weren't primarily designed to kill aircraft such as MBTs, IFVs, even ATGMs. This is why the tactical doctrine for attack helicopters is for them to do as much as they can to limit their exposure to possible enemy observation. This means nap-of-the-earth (NOE) flight, terrain masking, pop-up attacks, standoff range, etc. 

 

Unfortunately, Arma 3's helicopter AI isn't capable of performing any of those tactics and as such, are very vulnerable to being shot down by a player. And although AI AFVs do fire their auto-cannons and .50 MGs at aircraft when given the opportunity, I don't remember them ever firing their 105+mm cannons or ATGMs at aircraft (which is what would happen in real-life). This may be intentional by the devs to give AI helicopters a chance due to their limitations in avoiding such threats. If the devs flipped the switch to allow the AI to fire ATGMs and large calibre cannons at aircraft without changing the current AI helicopter behaviour, the AI helicopters would get shot down like flies.

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

23 hours ago, mickeymen said:

why in the Arma3 the AI of other tanks does not know that their tanks have such modern fire-control systems and why they does not know that their tanks are capable of firing at enemy helicopters and killing them from the first shot!? 

You should be able to answer that yourself, if you dont see them doing it, it obviously means its not in their technical ability to do so,

in other words their not scripted, or programmed to do such things. Like i said in a previous post, it can be scripted or modded to do so, but the person coding it would have to understand

the functions of such a system to make it work and translate that into code.

[mickeymen 322]

23 hours ago, Gunter Severloh said:

You should be able to answer that yourself, if you dont see them doing it, it obviously means its not in their technical ability to do so, in other words their not scripted, or programmed to do such things.

 

It turns out that AI is programmed to fire primary weapons, secondary weapons, they are also programmed to fire from the Launcher but they are not programmed to fire 120 mm at helicopter - and do you think this is normal?

 

Or maybe do you think that the programmers who created Arma3 are UNABLE to program their AIs for shooting from 120 mm?

 

23 hours ago, Gunter Severloh said:

Like i said in a previous post, it can be scripted or modded to do so, but the person coding it would have to understand

the functions of such a system to make it work and translate that into code.

 

As I understand, you suggest that I (or anyone else) solve this with the help of scripting. Unfortunately, I do not own scripting. I propose that the game developers decide this, not in order to satisfy my needs. I propose to do this in order to remove imbalance from our favorite game - I think you should support me and not argue with me

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

3 hours ago, mickeymen said:

they are not programmed to fire 120 mm at helicopter - and do you think this is normal?

Normal for what we are used too, but in general no.

If and when BIS were to add that capacity to the AI then there would be certain circumstances in which the AI would or could engage a heli, i think it would

need to be based on realistic capabilities in real life, for example:

1. If a heli was hovering and not far, then there then would be a perfect target and best option if the AI chose to shoot their main cannon at the heli.

 

2. If a heli were flying slowly but moving then the Ai could again choose to engage that heli provided they are programmed to calculate, and lead their target and hit the heli

timing in that would be crucial because based on the terrain, speed of the heli, and reload time of the main cannon, distance heli is and progressively making - (give or take he does some tactical evasive maneuvers if hes smart)

then theres still a good chance the AI could hit the heli without problems.

 

3 hours ago, mickeymen said:

I propose to do this in order to remove imbalance from our favorite game - I think you should support me and not argue with me

No one is arguing with you, a discussion as we are having is not an argument, im not against what your saying just question whether its worth requesting at this stage in

Arma3's game development, but then that all depends on BIS, they do tend to surprise us in their updates.

 

My suggestion is to use this thread as a reference and create a ticket on the feedback tracker for arma3 https://feedback.bistudio.com/project/view/1/

Be specific and give the reasons, not opinions because you like or dislike, just show why BIS should add that function, they need a reason to do something.

    If you dont want to do the ticket then well, unless you keep bumping this thread and hope that a dev sees it then imo your wasting your time to a point.

[mickeymen 322]

On 4/19/2019 at 6:42 PM, Gunter Severloh said:

Be specific and give the reasons, not opinions because you like or dislike, just show why BIS should add that function, they need a reason to do something.

 

"reasons, not opinions" -  this is exactly what i have been doing for the last two weeks. The trouble is that you do not see!

 

If you offer me to make a new post, in a new place, then I do not know where it can be done with greater efficiency than on the developers branch. 

It makes no sense to do it in a new place ... In particular, feedback does not work!

Sometimes it seems to me that there is no point in doing it even here, since the game has already died. because it is no longer interested for developers. Direct proof of this is that Arma3 is a tonns of errors and not functional things, which however are declared as functional, but developers don't care anymore

[domokun 515]

43 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

 

"reasons, not opinions" -  this is exactly what i have been doing for the last two weeks. The trouble is that you do not see!

 

If you offer me to make a new post, in a new place, then I do not know where it can be done with greater efficiency than on the developers branch. 

It makes no sense to do it in a new place ... In particular, feedback does not work!

Sometimes it seems to me that there is no point in doing it even here, since the game has already died. because it is no longer interested for developers. Direct proof of this is that Arma3 is a tonns of errors and not functional things, which however are declared as functional, but developers don't care anymore

Opinion: "there is no point in doing it even here, since the game has already died. because it is no longer interested for developers"

Reason: "proof of this is that Arma3 is a tonns of errors and not functional things, which however are declared as functional, but developers don't care anymore"

Fact: 6 years after it was released, BI regularly publishes patches for A3 which fix some (but not all) bugs and sometimes deliver new features

[mickeymen 322]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:06 PM, domokun said:

Fact: 6 years after it was released, BI regularly publishes patches for A3 which fix some (but not all) bugs and sometimes deliver new features

 

Perhaps that is why we see flying tanks, which stumble about bushes/small obstacles? Lol!

Or jumping corpses, which fly up to 5-10 meters?

 

Or do you think that 6 years is not enough to fix it? 

[lugiahua 26]

Smart Tank addon already allows Tank gunner to engage slow flying aircrafts, they would even switch to ATGM if available.

[rowdied 44]

I guess no one ever played Arma or Arma 2 then judging by the comments here (Gunter excluded 🙂).

The AI used to target planes to the detriment of other tanks being around them. I have seen and lived it. Being shot down by AI when in a helicopter and them in a t72.

My fault for flying low and slow.

If I am in a tank and you are stupid enough to fly close to the horizon and go very slow or even hover for a minute I will shoot you out of the sky regardless of game OFP, Arma, Arma 2 or Arma 3.

Much harder to shoot a plane down when he zooms by but again, the helicopter is more vulnerable than a plane because it can hover, fly slow and land etc... much quicker and practically anywhere where a plane cannot.

@mickeymen it sounds like you are butt hurt because you keep getting shot down by humans. Maybe adjust your tactics or don't fly then.

 

 

Just sayin....

[mickeymen 322]

On 4/24/2019 at 1:15 AM, rowdied said:

 

@mickeymen it sounds like you are butt hurt because you keep getting shot down by humans. Maybe adjust your tactics or don't fly then.

No, I am a butt hurt since there is an imbalance in the game.

It doesn't seem like you understand what I'm talking about. I'm not flying anywhere, this AI-helicopter is flying at me)

 

A human player will always have an advantage in front of AI. The player will easily kill a AI-helicopter (when player in a tank) and player will easily kill a AI- tank with AT-Missile (when player in a helicopter)  AI-tank, in his turn cannot kill helicopter of player

My question - If an AI tank can't kill my helicopter, then what the hell my tank can be a sniper against an AI helicopters? Here is disbalance

 I hope you understood me correctly

[oukej 2910]

I am afraid that if we allowed the AI tank gunners to shoot at helicopters they would be too good at it and players would complain. Also the AI could easily get too fixated by any enemy helicopter and would ignore ground combat.
If we wanted to balance it out by limiting their accuracy or speed of the target they can engage, we'd have to limit it for all targets, crippling the tank crew efficiency even against "normal" ground targets. So I'd rather leave it as it is.

Out of curiosity - according to our advisor for Tanks DLC engaging helicopters with the cannon (+FCS) was an actual part of their gunnery training 😎

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

6 hours ago, oukej said:

I am afraid that if we allowed the AI tank gunners to shoot at helicopters they would be too good at it and players would complain. Also the AI could easily get too fixated by any enemy helicopter and would ignore ground combat.
If we wanted to balance it out by limiting their accuracy or speed of the target they can engage, we'd have to limit it for all targets, crippling the tank crew efficiency even against "normal" ground targets. So I'd rather leave it as it is.

Out of curiosity - according to our advisor for Tanks DLC engaging helicopters with the cannon (+FCS) was an actual part of their gunnery training 😎

 

the big one is enabling optional tank HE shell against infantry.

 

specifically the autocannon Nyx, should be attacking with its autocannon instead of switching to 7.62 when firing at infantry.

[pierremgi 4737]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:10 PM, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

the big one is enabling optional tank HE shell against infantry.

 

specifically the autocannon Nyx, should be attacking with its autocannon instead of switching to 7.62 when firing at infantry.

It seems to me that's already the case for Nyx autocannon or Marshall in Vanilla 1.92.

For more general HE shells fired by Tanks/APCs, you need something more: MGI advanced modules >> Enhanced turrets module