VTOL Presentation does not fit with the APEX Protocol

[maxl30 81]

In the VTOL Presentation have the CSAT with regular troops a direct confrontation with NATO expedition troops on the 10th June 2035.

In APEX Protocol, was the first contact of NATO/CTRG troops with CSAT/Viper on the 13th August 2035.

[lexx 1331]

Most of the showcase missions can be considered non-canon. For all we know, based on story details, there probably was never a direct NATO vs CSAT confrontation on the Horizon Islands. At least not within the known time frame. (unless I missed something)

[Ex3B 265]

I seem to recall other, similar, issues with some of the single missions, l agree with lexx

 

I think only the Tac ops DLC missions, and the old man scenario are meant to fit in with the canon story.

 

Some of the missions its not clear if they fit (like the Jets DLC showcase)

[drebin052 323]

The VTOL showcase isn't canon. Prior to Old Man, Pacific CSAT aren't even deployed on Tanoa (Viper SOF don't count). Jets showcase also doesn't fit in lore since CSAT went out of its way to avoid fighting with NATO after they lost the airport. Remnants of War also makes it clear that any CSAT units which didn't retreat in time surrendered themselves to NATO troops.

 

This is different to say, Arma 2 where some of the showcases were made canon like Scud Busters in BAF. Basically, if a showcase isn't listed on the timeline then it isn't canon.

[Ex3B 265]

On 4/6/2020 at 11:42 AM, drebin052 said:

Jets showcase also doesn't fit in lore since CSAT went out of its way to avoid fighting with NATO after they lost the airport. Remnants of War also makes it clear that any CSAT units which didn't retreat in time surrendered themselves to NATO troops.

So I went and checked, and it does fit in with the timeline.

So a few things that fit:

1) The stepping stone campaign (cannon, no?) shows a carrier group heading to Altis.

2) The mission "Air superiortiy" where NATO takes the airfield takes place on 9 Aug 2035, starting just after 05:00

3) The Jets DLC showcase takes mentions that they just took the airport, and takes place on 9 Aug 2035 at 15:15. 

In the Jets DLC showcase, you intercept CSAT jets believed to be making a strike on the newly acquired airbase. So it would fit right in with the cannon if that was CSATs last attempt to resist the NATO invasion, and it gave up after that.

 

In the campaign, IIRC, CSAT contests the capture of the airport, then decides to retreat to the north east after the airport falls to NATO. The Jets DLC fits in if we just assume they launched an airstrike against the airport before making the decision to withdraw.

 

Even if not cannon, the data and time certainly seem like it was intended to be, and is cannon compatible.

Also Jets DLC came out before Tac-ops, and Tac-Ops could have omitted the carrier fleet, and simply said that they needed to secure Malden to allow the LPDs/LHDs/transports to pass through.

 

On the other hand... the lack of any fast mover air support is hard to explain if there was a whole carrier group that should have 20-40 blackwasps on hand... but if we accept that as valid, we'd have to say Tac-Ops is not cannon either... instead of the carrier and blackwasp didn't exist at the time they made the campaign... although they could go back and retcon it by adding a few flybys from jets, similar to how they added some of the SAM assets to the campaign when Encore came out.

[drebin052 323]

I didn't contest Stepping Stone's events or the fact that Carrier Strike Group 14 was sailing towards Altis. In fact, it's even listed on the timeline so I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.

 

The problem is the briefing for the Jets showcase, which is as follows:

 

Quote

After the AAF surrender, NATO continue to clean up remnants of CSAT forces to the northeast. Progress has been halted after CSAT brought in fast-air assets to interdict our ground assault. Air superiority is vital for victory. USS Freedom has been deployed to Altis. As an F/A-181 fighter pilot, your task is to secure the airspace to allow ground assets to continue their attack.

 

The first line already presents an issue; Akhanteros has not capitulated at this point in time and his troops are still resisting the NATO advance towards Selakano/Ioannina. Since the airport itself has only just been seized (Air Superiority), this would mean that the 111th ID wasn't ready for the siege against Pyrgos. The siege can't happen until later that night, and that's when Moral Fiber takes place.

 

This alone prevents it from being canon in any way, as it would mean that NATO somehow captured Pyrgos, Kalochori, Ioannina and Panagia on the same night. That's definitely not possible as it'll be at least another 24 hours before the AAF surrender in Paradise Found and Terminal Defiance on August 10th.

 

40 minutes ago, Ex3B said:

In the campaign, IIRC, CSAT contests the capture of the airport, then decides to retreat to the north east after the airport falls to NATO. The Jets DLC fits in if we just assume they launched an airstrike against the airport before making the decision to withdraw.

 

They didn't contest it, as Remnants of War explicitly states in Nathan's conversations. Griffin Regiment launched one failed counterattack on Neochori (Resurgent West), and is then forced to defend the airport without the AAF's help on the next morning after Operation Steel Pegasus succeeds (Final Strike). From that point onward, they simply retreated and avoided combat with NATO troops.

 

40 minutes ago, Ex3B said:

Even if not cannon, the data and time certainly seem like it was intended to be, and is cannon compatible.

Also Jets DLC came out before Tac-ops, and Tac-Ops could have omitted the carrier fleet, and simply said that they needed to secure Malden to allow the LPDs/LHDs/transports to pass through.

 

The Jets showcase is about as canon-compatible as the Tanks or even Tank Destroyer showcases are. Or simply put, they were just using parts of the campaign's setting to make a fun mission to play using the DLC's new toys, and never intended to make it canon.

 

Quote

On the other hand... the lack of any fast mover air support is hard to explain if there was a whole carrier group that should have 20-40 blackwasps on hand... but if we accept that as valid, we'd have to say Tac-Ops is not cannon either... instead of the carrier and blackwasp didn't exist at the time they made the campaign... although they could go back and retcon it by adding a few flybys from jets, similar to how they added some of the SAM assets to the campaign when Encore came out.

 

While we obviously didn't see the jets themselves when Adapt was first released, the flyby sounds at the start of Beyond Recognition made it clear that fighter jets were hitting CSAT/AAF positions on August 8th. Those sounds weren't added post-Jets DLC; they were already present back when the episode first came out. Altis Requiem further confirmed that Carrier Strike Group 14's fighters were the ones doing the airstrikes, as the intro image for Salient Force confirms.

[Ex3B 265]

22 hours ago, drebin052 said:

I didn't contest Stepping Stone's events or the fact that Carrier Strike Group 14 was sailing towards Altis. In fact, it's even listed on the timeline so I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.

I'm not saying you contested it, I'm just mentioning elements of cannon that are compatible with the Jets DLC showcase.

 

22 hours ago, drebin052 said:

The problem is the briefing for the Jets showcase, which is as follows:

 

The first line already presents an issue; Akhanteros has not capitulated at this point in time and his troops are still resisting the NATO advance towards Selakano/Ioannina. Since the airport itself has only just been seized (Air Superiority), this would mean that the 111th ID wasn't ready for the siege against Pyrgos. The siege can't happen until later that night, and that's when Moral Fiber takes place.

 

This alone prevents it from being canon in any way, as it would mean that NATO somehow captured Pyrgos, Kalochori, Ioannina and Panagia on the same night. That's definitely not possible as it'll be at least another 24 hours before the AAF surrender in Paradise Found and Terminal Defiance on August 10th.

Ah, I didn't actually replay it before posting, I just watched a youtube vidoe and noticed the intro cinematic had a compatible date:

It seems that video cut some parts out? because what you mentioned doesn't appear in the video.

Found this one:

 

Yea, that mission breifing does not fit... Its a shame, because it seems they could have made it fit... it even seems that they tried to make it fit with the date and time... and then they give that mission briefing... I guess you are right.

 

22 hours ago, drebin052 said:

They didn't contest it, as Remnants of War explicitly states in Nathan's conversations. Griffin Regiment launched one failed counterattack on Neochori (Resurgent West), and is then forced to defend the airport without the AAF's help on the next morning after Operation Steel Pegasus succeeds (Final Strike). From that point onward, they simply retreated and avoided combat with NATO troops.

You just said that they defended the airport without the AAF's help... to me that means CSAT contested NATO's capture of the airport. If it were uncontested, then CSAT would have retreated and NATO would have captured it without resistance.

So NATO and CSAT did directly fight for control of the airport, and the showcase mission takes place at a time when NATO had control of the airport, enemy forces hadn't capitulated, and just hours after stiff resistance from CSAT ground forces.

 

It could have easily been made cannon compatible. If you ignore the breifing in the map screen, and a few markers placed on the map, it would have fit.

[drebin052 323]

14 hours ago, Ex3B said:

It seems that video cut some parts out? because what you mentioned doesn't appear in the video.

 

The first video was recorded when the showcase was still on devbranch (bottom right of the screen). You can easily verify this stuff by just loading the mission itself.

 

14 hours ago, Ex3B said:

You just said that they defended the airport without the AAF's help... to me that means CSAT contested NATO's capture of the airport. If it were uncontested, then CSAT would have retreated and NATO would have captured it without resistance.

So NATO and CSAT did directly fight for control of the airport, and the showcase mission takes place at a time when NATO had control of the airport, enemy forces hadn't capitulated, and just hours after stiff resistance from CSAT ground forces.

 

It could have easily been made cannon compatible. If you ignore the breifing in the map screen, and a few markers placed on the map, it would have fit.

 

The whole point of Operation Steel Pegasus was to divert the AAF from the airport, leaving it understrength and easier for NATO forces to seize it. The only time CSAT overtly contests with NATO are in Final Strike (Steel Pegasus), Resurgent West (The East Wind) and Air Superiority (The East Wind). After Air Superiority finishes and they lose the airport to NATO, Griffin Rgt. ceased fighting and began their evacuation. All of this happened on August 9th.

 

This is the briefing map taken directly from Moral Fiber. Note the lack of CSAT units located anywhere near the front line:

 

And then one(s) for Preventative Diplomacy. Again, note the lack of CSAT ORBAT markers and the explicit mention of no fighting against CSAT troops:

 

Quote

For now, CSAT forces seem to be under orders not to interdict our operations; they've once again pulled back. Command is trying to work out what exactly's going on. We need to bring an end to this conflict before the global situation escalates beyond our control.

 

And lastly, the one for Fighter Jets. No AAF markers, Pyrgos is within CSAT-controlled territory and for whatever reason, they've decided to fight NATO too?

 

The territories controlled also does not match up. How did NATO gain control of Paros at 1515 when they don't begin moving out until 1900 (nearly four hours later)? And yet somehow, they've also managed to lose control of Paros again?

 

Once again, it's not canon-compatible as all of this is still made irrelevant by the simple fact that the AAF has not surrendered yet. You can't just disregard the briefing, as in order to make it fit into canon, Bravo Zero One would have to rewrite the entire showcase's events. For instance, if they had set it during the invasion of Altis when Carrier Strike Group 14 first attacks, that would fit better as it would canonically make sense for CSAT to repel NATO ground forces/airstrikes with their own Shikras.

 

But that's certainly not going to happen seeing as how the showcase is just a tutorial made to show off the Black Wasp, and was never meant to be canon material.

[Ex3B 265]

As I said, I concede, you are right and its non-canon.

I think it would only have taken minor changes to make it canon compatible.

3 hours ago, drebin052 said:

The only time CSAT overtly contests with NATO are in Final Strike (Steel Pegasus), Resurgent West (The East Wind) and Air Superiority (The East Wind). After Air Superiority finishes and they lose the airport to NATO, Griffin Rgt. ceased fighting and began their evacuation. All of this happened on August 9th.

 

This is the briefing map taken directly from Moral Fiber. Note the lack of CSAT units located anywhere near the front line:

 

And then one(s) for Preventative Diplomacy. Again, note the lack of CSAT ORBAT markers and the explicit mention of no fighting against CSAT troops:

According to the timeline, Preventative diplomacy takes place on 10 August, so not relevant.

You agree that CSAT was fighting NATO on 9 Aug during Final Strike, Resurgent West, and Air Superiority. The last mission stats around 05:00, lets say its takes at least an hour.

You point out that by the evening of 9 Aug, by the mission of Moral Fiber, CSAT had pulled back. That takes place at 19:00

 

So according to canon, at some point between about 06:00 and 19:00, CSAT gives up and pulls back. Since its undefined when that takes place, an mission where you fight CSAT at 15:15 on 9 Aug would not contradict canon... but, your next point seals it:

 

Quote

 

And lastly, the one for Fighter Jets. No AAF markers, Pyrgos is within CSAT-controlled territory and for whatever reason, they've decided to fight NATO too?

[snipped]The territories controlled also does not match up. How did NATO gain control of Paros at 1515 when they don't begin moving out until 1900 (nearly four hours later)? And yet somehow, they've also managed to lose control of Paros again?

 

I agree

Quote

Once again, it's not canon-compatible as all of this is still made irrelevant by the simple fact that the AAF has not surrendered yet. You can't just disregard the briefing, as in order to make it fit into canon, Bravo Zero One would have to rewrite the entire showcase's events. For instance, if they had set it during the invasion of Altis when Carrier Strike Group 14 first attacks, that would fit better as it would canonically make sense for CSAT to repel NATO ground forces/airstrikes with their own Shikras.

 

But that's certainly not going to happen seeing as how the showcase is just a tutorial made to show off the Black Wasp, and was never meant to be canon material.

 

Yes, I see its not meant to be canon. I agree that you can't just disregard what doesn't fit, but Bravo Zero One could have made it fit without changing much, its a shame.

I don't think they would need to re-write the entire showcase's events. The timing is OK, not great, but OK. The showcase mentions radar picking up contacts 100km away, indicating that CSAT air attacks weren't originating from Altis or Stratis - so perhaps they weren't prepared for the NATO invasion... there are numerous ways to explain away the timing (No Shikras based on Altis, dissent within CSAT ranks, as we saw in Stepping Stone with the Chinese wanting to avoid conflict, but the north african members wantin to continue. Maybe they initially thought they had enough time to get the East wind device off the island, but then decided an airstrike might buy a little more time... etc).

So if you'll agree the timing is OK, we're left with the NATO and CSAT positions as the problems.

For the most part, changing the map markers and briefing text is all that's needed, as that doesn't actually affect the mission.

I forget where exactly the CSAT armor was located, but if its not in the north East, they could easily just move it there. They are just stationary targets to showcase the A2G capabilities of the black wasp.

 

 

I mean... it seems like it would have been so easy to fit that mission into canon, and the time and date suggest that they had canon in mind (of all the dates and times in the year, they chose the roughly 12 hour window when NATO had control of the airport, and it wasn't explicitly shown that CSAT had disengaged).

I don't know why they didn't just make it fit canon, it would have been easy.

 

When showcases come out before/without a suitable canon setting, it makes sense not to have them be canon.

The VTOL showcase for instance... when it was made, it would be pretty hard to make a mission like that fit canon. Sure you could fery a viper team from sosovu to Balavu or something, but since the Viper involvement was supposed ot be covert, a canon compatible CSAT showcase would just be a couple taxi rides, without using the Xian's combat capabilities.

If Old Man had come out first, they could have made an interesting VTOL showcase in that setting, "But that's certainly not going to happen". Years old non-canon showcases won't be completely remade to match new canon, but the Jets showcase could have been made canon compatible from the start, yet they made it clearly non-canon, but with nods to canon... I don't understand their thinking...