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Asheara

Tanks - Damage improvements

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Greetings!


Many of you know that in our damage model's current state the calculation of the damage dealt can be quite unpredictable at times. Therefore, we're really happy to announce the new component system, which will significantly reduce this problem and increase the transparency of the damage dealt. Calculating a round's penetration will be much more precise. Furthermore, there are several smaller features to improve Arma 3's quality-of-life for our dear community creators. The intention is to make their job of implementing the damage model easier. We do this by decreasing the amount of variables they had to take into consideration thus far and which often fell under the category of 'black magic'. However, the number one game-changer when it comes to this feature is the simulation of armor types. This involves the ability to create multiple types of protection, which can even react differently to different ammunition types. This opens the door to many new gameplay possibilities, and gives the player the option to select more efficient ammunition against a certain type of armor. And while we ourselves will be using this in a relatively modest way that is still understandable for the majority of players, the possibilities for the community creators are virtually endless.

 

That being said, I'd like to encourage you to give feedback. The numbers are still a prototype and need to be tweaked - after all, thanks to the component system it will work a bit differently.

Things I'd like to bring to your attention are:

  • The component system - simulation of AP rounds should be much more accurate, while the spheres are still there for the explosive damage. Passthrough should also work more deterministic than before
  • The armor simulations - the vehicles have been given passing protection in form of SLAT and ERA armor, while there are currently three types (SLAT, Light ERA and Heavy ERA), which should have some differences between ammunition (we also have 4 types of ammunition - AP, HE, HEAT and Tandem Heat). We're aware that current configuration is not yet ideal, but we'd appreciate your help in pointing out the issues.
  • The damage visuals - compared to previous two it's a minor thing and not a game changer, but I believe that things like destroyed ERA or semi-damaged SLAT would make your Arma immersion a lot better. This should already work correctly in all cases, therefore if you find something which doesn't, let us know! 

 

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Tanks soo much! Pun intended. ;)

If only I was off instead of headed out the door.   This looks like a great, long awaited implementation. 
Alongside the Customization posted below, this should help extend Arma 3 play for quite a while!

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Speechless. This was the no1 thing I hoped for as a gameplay mechanic improvement.

 

My prayers have been heard.

 

My schedule has been cleared.

 

I am prepared

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24 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

Speechless. This was the no1 thing I hoped for as a gameplay mechanic improvement.

 

My prayers have been heard.

 

My schedule has been cleared.

 

I am prepared

 

My body is ready.

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Any chance we'll get the ability to specify in EDEN how many of which shell a tank is to carry? It looks like a great system (didn't have the time for in-depth testing yet), the ability to customize the loadout to suit a mission's needs would be of great help to mission makers.

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This is a long-awaited and unique update.

I still hope for at least some kind of repair system in Arma 3, because against the backdrop of advanced damage system there must be repair system also.

 

 

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One major problem with A3 vehicle ammunition is ricochets. I have tested the Kuma, Slammer and T-100 extensively, firing from distances of 500 - 2000 meters, and found very odd behaviour when encountering angled surfaces.

 

One example here. I found that the APFSDS behaved much like a rubber ball when hitting angled surfaces, for example I had this happening: https://imgur.com/a/LHSX4

 

AP from slammer at about 1km, ricochetting off the armor, without doing damage twice. This shouldn't happen! Modern APFSDS rounds are designed to be very resistant to ricochets, in fact they are designed to nose into armor they encounter. Apparently the angle at which they bounce is approaching 80° to normal. Anything less and the armor needs to be thick enough to stop the projectile from plowing through it.

 

Tank rounds need to be -way- less bouncy. What often happens is that the projectile shatters, and the tracer goes flying off while the penetrator in the front of the round continues through the armor.

 

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First of all, tanks a lot for this update! ;-)

 

Of course, i excitedly checked stuff out, and thus have some initial feedback.

 

Kamysh + slat cage vs PCML from the side

  • In DIR mode, slat armour section gets blown off, hit points take no damage. However, overall damage value is still 0.83 vs 0.88 without slat armour.
  • The problem here is, with the next hit, the vehicle explodes since the damage value exceeds 1.
  • The slat armour on the opposite side also gets blown off.
  • In TOP mode, damage seems to be very less, although iirc there is hit point damage

Marshall + slat cage vs PCML from the side

  • 1-hit KO (same as without cage) in DIR mode.
  • don't remember what happened with TOP mode.

Marshall + cage vs RPG-42

  • Takes reduced overall damage but similar hit point damage as without cage

Mora + cage vs PCML from the side

  • DIR works intuitively (low damage, cage blown off on one side, no hit point damage)
  • TOP works as expected when it comes to overall damage value. however hit point damage is strange - hitting it from the right damages the left track??

Tanks

  • ERA seems to prevent damage even after being blown off (tested with HEAT, APFSDS by hitting on the same spot repeatedly) on the slammer UP and Varsuk
  • Varsuk seems pretty invulnerable to RPG-42s. Took loads of hits, didn't do much, no hit point damage (only commander's turret got disabled).
  • Varsuk even survived multiple RPG hits directly to the rear (no wooden log in place) without taking much damage.
  • Kuma, without the extra armour (i.e. cages exposed) too little to no damage from Titan AT hits to the rear (manual guidance).
  • Varsuk took a Titan AT hit in TOP mode, i was in the Varsuk. hull went red but crew didn't get hurt.

Closing comments: Perhaps it may be good to drop the overall damage value entirely? Let it be a binary 0/1. When the HULL hit point takes maximum damage (hitpoint damage = 1), set the overall to 1 as well, otherwise don't calculate it. Damage modelling isn't my area of expertise (i am but a humble mission maker) so this is mostly just me musing on what i've observed.

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Can confirm what @SuicideKing has pointed out, one example is RPG-42 HE rockets blow off ALL ERA on the T-100 even the ERA on the opposite side...

Doing more testing as we speak.

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Things to note:

  1. : the camo nets do not effect thermal as much as they probably should.
  2. : the SLAT armour gets destroyed too quickly (1 RPG) it would be better if it took 2 or 3 rockets depending on type or size.
  3. : the ERA gets destroyed by HE all over the tanks, also isn't the Varsuk in specific supposed to have ERA on the "bottom" of the turret? https://imgur.com/a/AKXuk
  4. : there is no description on rockets or missiles stating what kind of warhead they have (HE, HEAT or tandem HEAT)

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20 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

: the SLAT armour gets destroyed too quickly (1 RPG) it would be better if it took 2 or 3 rockets depending on type or size.

I actually don't mind this too much, to be honest. Seems to be good balance (1 RPG/PCML). Didn't try a Titan.

 

21 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

: there is no description on rockets or missiles stating what kind of warhead they have (HE, HEAT or tandem HEAT)

Well, HE is usually described (both Titan and RPG-42 mention this) but which type of AT is not specified (i.e. HEAT or Tandem HEAT). Agreed that it should be mentioned.

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One more thing, will the Varsuk get actual 125mm shells with the Tanks DLC update? The current config on stable branch is identical to the 120mm shell.

 

nvm it's different

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Right, another round of testing this time using Varsuk: 

  1. HEAT blows up quite a lot of the ERA on the slammer UP (and Varsuk UFP as well) https://imgur.com/a/2GKvW maybe less should blow up at once?
  2. HE agains blows up all ERA on the entire vehicle even ERA that's on the other side of the tank.
  3. after the ERA has been blown off, HEAT still does no damage to the side of the slammer  UP, and for some reason APFSDS does only 50% damage from the side (90° angle), yet when I tired it on a slammer UP with ERA it one shotted it!.
  4. Neither HEAT from the Varsuk nor HE seem to destroy the camouflage netting on the Kuma (side shots directly on netting)

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Just now, SuicideKing said:

One more thing, will the Varsuk get actual 125mm shells with the Tanks DLC update? The current config on stable branch is identical to the 120mm shell.

IIRC the 125 has 50 more hitdamage with APFSDS than 120s, 550 vs 500

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Another thing of note: the weapons on the Kamysh, Mora and Gorgon either do way too little damage or the armour on the MBTs (side armour) is way too good, I put all 60 APFSDS round and two titan ATs into the side of the Varsuk at close range and the Varsuk only received approx 55% damage to the hull. 

MP-T and APFSDS-T did not destroy the ERA after several direct hits.

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@Asheara

can we get docu on CfgArmorSimulations please - or is it essentially hardcoded engine functionality and not extendable anyhow?

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17 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

IIRC the 125 has 50 more hitdamage with APFSDS than 120s, 550 vs 500

Yup, you're right, i don't know how i missed it!

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10 minutes ago, Maxzymator said:

I mean the device itself. Like drawn. Like in interior.

Ah, the display. Would suggest discussing that here: 

 

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Just now, SuicideKing said:

Yup, you're right, i don't know how i missed it!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I missied other stuff too

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13 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

Another thing of note: the weapons on the Kamysh, Mora and Gorgon either do way too little damage or the armour on the MBTs (side armour) is way too good, I put all 60 APFSDS round and two titan ATs into the side of the Varsuk at close range and the Varsuk only received approx 55% damage to the hull. 

This sounds about right for guns. Note that a 30 or 40mm will barely scratch a tank's armor, no matter which part it hits (threads, sights and so on are another matter). For missiles, try using the top attack mode (yes, APCs support it now). Direct attack shouldn't be your first choice against tanks, and should have reduced efficiency. If the missiles didn't hit exactly the same point, surviving two hits to the side armor is not out of the question.

 

You've got a point about ERA, though. 30mm AP rounds should probably detonate it away, although I'm not sure about that, either. The front plate on those is fairly thick, dunno how exactly it compares.

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