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Asheara

Tanks - Damage improvements

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To be fair, one side shot in just about any MBT, especially with HEAT-FS or long rod APFSDS will murderize the turret crew. The Crew-in-hull design is more meant to improve crew survivability by putting more armor where it counts. The turret only needs enough internal protection to keep the firing mechanism safe from lower-threat weaponry like aerial rockets and light AT, and compartmentalize the ammunition in case of an explosion. Saving armor here allows more weight to be spent elsewhere, and it also allows vastly improved crew cohesion , though at the expense of the high turned-out position for the commander.

As for the hull side, was the test run with ERA enabled or disabled? (This can be accomplished with the "Ares" zeus extension, in the detailed damage menu) I imagine that the ERA is making up the majority of the side protection to keep weight below 50t

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not about new afv, and similar to before my said.

MBTs mantlet in Arma 3 is too weak.

Surely, Many MBTs have weakspot in mantlet. It was said T-80u(380mm) Leo2 420mm, because of difficulty that making composited armor used by manlet.

But 1~3 shot by Autocanon can destroyed is weird.

additionaly some MBT's mantlet developped after cold war were made of Special steel and it can protect by tank shell(written in Specification document).

 

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The overall protection of tanks seems be to weak. They take a lot of damage from bounces, or non-penetrations. The front armor of T-100 or the T-14 is not even enough to stop a 105mm APDFSD-T on 4km range.

A loss of penetration over distance with APDFSD rounds should be more noticeable.

 

Are explosions necessary? Destruction of the turret / engine / killing the crew should be indicator enough? It would be great to get a way from this "shoot it, till it blows up, no matter where i hit" system. Blowing up on a penetration would be good, but blowing up just after none penetrations seems odd to me... (hitting component other than "ammo" should not decrease the global hp)

 

Just hitting the Gun barrel of the tank is already enough to cause ~10% damage to the global hp pool, instead of just damaging the component. The same goes for just hitting external armor, without any penetration.

https://imgur.com/a/4Xfer

 

Quote

Turrets, their hitpoint and balance are going to be tweaked / fixed in near future


Looking forward to the tweaked values. (please mention them in the change log)

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I did some tests Rhino 120mm APFSDS vs Slammer. I focused mainly on hitting the slammer on the side.

The hits on the side turret seem have reasonable effects, with a resulting red gun or red turret.

While, shotting at the hull, the only way i did some damages was: 

1) Hitting directly the tracks, resulting in a damaged track. Fine.
2) Hitting exactly the driver seat spot. In this case was something more than some damages: all hitpoints red!
 

https://imgur.com/a/NrJWF
 

Instead, all the other shots in all the other parts of the tank's side hull, penetrating or not penetrating, did nothing to the hitpoints, only global HP. No engine or hull or tracks damages.


https://imgur.com/a/CWn2u

Strange behaviour. Especially on the front side it should damage the engine, and the damages made hitting the "driver seat area" seem way too much compared to what happen if you hit other spots, even if per se it's good that a penetrating AP on that spot do a lot of damages.

With 2-3 shots the tank usually explode because global HP i guess, but we should see more effects on the hitpoints before the "blow-up" event.

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1 hour ago, armilio said:

I did some tests Rhino 120mm APFSDS vs Slammer. I focused mainly on hitting the slammer on the side.

The hits on the side turrets seem have reasonable effects, with a resulting red gun or red turret.

While, shotting at the hull, the only way i did some damages was: 

1) Hitting directly the tracks, resulting in a damaged track. Fine.
2) Hitting exactly the driver seat spot. In this case was something more than some damages: all hitpoints red!
 

https://imgur.com/a/NrJWF
 

Instead, all the other shots in all the other parts of the tank's side hull, penetrating or not penetrating, did nothing to the hitpoints, only global HP. No engine or hull or tracks damages.


https://imgur.com/a/CWn2u

Strange behaviour. Especially on the front side it should damage the engine, and the damages made hitting the "driver seat area" seem way too much compared to what happen if hitting other spots, even if per se it's good that a penetrating AP on that spot do a lot of damages.

With 2-3 shots the tank usually explode because global HP i guess, but we should see more effects on the hitpoints before the "blow-up" event.

Yeah, this is something I also noted a few pages back, the damage models are still very much WiP. Can confirm it still happens.

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@Asheara

 

Question, is it a possible thing that you guys can make vehicles turrets not disappear during their destruction or at least make this a random behavior, for example 20% of chance that turret will disappear, kinda emulating a turret being thrown away from the hull by random ammo cook off?

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On 3/11/2018 at 1:10 AM, Damian90 said:

@Asheara

 

Question, is it a possible thing that you guys can make vehicles turrets not disappear during their destruction or at least make this a random behavior, for example 20% of chance that turret will disappear, kinda emulating a turret being thrown away from the hull by random ammo cook off?

 

Well :D

That's quite complicated question. To crush your hopes and dreams from the start: no, we won't do that.

However, it's more complicated. You see - most of the times we have 'wreck' p3d for this purpose. It is usually without the turret. Sure, it can be pasted from normal p3d and such, and hiding some parts on some condition is not really a problem. Problem is randomizing it. Although there is randomization in Virtual Garage and Eden, I believe that except the scripting, we have no proper way to randomize this kind of things. It would probably require either programming support, or script it. Scripting we are generally trying to avoid - when it comes to the vehicle functionality, we have configs for that and... we can't just hack everything with scripts, we need to maintain some standards ;) Stability, performance and this kind of things.

So all in all - it would require some work from art department to remodel the wrecks. It would require work from programming to give us proper way to randomize things upon destruction. And work of encoding to put it together. 

That's quite a bit of work for a small visual fluff, don't you think? :)

Especially when receiving reports around here how broken the configs of the damage model are :P With the short time given to us, we need to focus on the important things :)

 

@Yoshi_E
Damn, the overall protection is weak? And here I thought the tanks are kinda tanking it (well everything except APFSDS). Will try to look into it, but... 

Turrets first! Started working on it, and yes, we plan to tweak that total damage which gets done. Divide it into the categories of unmanned remote vs. manned turret, and the unmanned ones won't give any total damage (except Angara, because that's one huge ass turret), while the others will be getting some total damage. However, I'll try to tweak it in a way so... hitting a gun barrel doesn't do this kind of stuff :D

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48 minutes ago, Asheara said:

Turrets first! Started working on it, and yes, we plan to tweak that total damage which gets done. Divide it into the categories of unmanned remote vs. manned turret, and the unmanned ones won't give any total damage (except Angara, because that's one huge ass turret), while the others will be getting some total damage. However, I'll try to tweak it in a way so... hitting a gun barrel doesn't do this kind of stuff :D

 

Yes, please :)

 

A few things that still stand out is:

 

  • Non-penetrating hits (ricochet and surface "absorb") deal great damage to global health of vehicle (I think it is related to the way a high Hit value will create an indirectHitrange damage that spreads to every Hitpoint in the area). (This isn't exactly accurate behavior unless you are being hit by a wrecking-ball sized cannon shot.)
  • Damage to crew can still occur, even if shell is fully stopped by armor surface. (will post some more feedback/details on this soon™ from testing on current devbranch version).
  • HEAT weapons that use IndirectHit values (all but the PCML) seem to cause 0 damage when hitting ERA, and full damage when hitting anything else, regardless of position. The vehicles global health suffers greatly, regardless of impact angle, armor thickness etc. The PCML behaves more like a real HEAT weapon, and causes different damage values dependent on impact angle/penetration depth/area etc.
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@Strike_NOR

I know about the issue with HEAT, TandemHEAT and such, however right at this moment I cannot do anything about it - those weapons are still being worked on by someone else and thus unfinished (teaser: possible submunition!). I've been told to hold on with these and focus on AP balance for now. But thanks for the suggestion! Once we get the green light, it will be very useful :)

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34 minutes ago, Asheara said:

(teaser: possible submunition!)

 

How dare you tease with something like that! :D My knees are now weak.

 

Seriously though. This sounds promising. Considering that this may see the light as natively supported in ArmA3 - it will be even more important to look at AP mechanics (since submunition projectile follows the same laws as other ArmA projectiles).

 

Thanks for the hype. I totally needed that on top of my monday caffeine rush!

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On 3/12/2018 at 9:06 AM, Asheara said:

 

@Yoshi_E
Damn, the overall protection is weak? And here I thought the tanks are kinda tanking it (well everything except APFSDS). Will try to look into it, but... 

 

@Asheara

1. All crew members die if an armored vehicle (APC or MBT) nearby explodes (with a radius of about 5m ). Smaller vehicle explosion (Trucks and normal cars) already cause injuries to crew members (Hatchback at 2-3m --> 10-20% dmg; HEMTT at 2-3m --> 30-40% dmg --> 2x Truck explosions are enough to kill the crew sometimes). 

I doubt a modern MBT can be taken out with the explosive force a a 50L fuel tank @ 2m :D.

 

Heavily armored Vehicles does not seem to protect well against certain vehicle (fuel) explosions. 

The vehicle itself remains almost undamaged.

 

This distance is already deadly for the T-140k Crew

DU4L3iV.jpg

 

2. The T-140 seems to be under armored against AP rounds, the 40mm AP from the AMV-7 can already penetrate everything on it, may it be front armor, turret, or side armor. It's possible to kill the hole crew with 3 shots from the front, or 1 shot from the side (40mm AP). Its slightly more resistant to 30mm AP, but the front armor is sill penetrated by it, killing the crew again with only ~4 rounds. The T-100 at first appears to be better on the upper Glacis, but is not able to resits on the side or turret.

Other Tanks like Kuma or Slammer have enough armor on the front to stop small AP rounds, but not on the side. Kuma also seems to be missing turret ring protection, as rounds can enter from there with ease, including the front.

The T-100 has better side armor than the Kuma does (again 40mm AP), that seems quite odd to me. On the T-100 they are unable to penetrate the hull at all, on the Kuma they over penetrate the tank from the side (penetrate the hull, pass through the vehicle, penetrate the hull again, get stuck in modular armor)!

 

40 MM over penetrating the Hull of Kuma, vs T-100 (penetrates skirt, but not not the hull) Should it not be the other way around?

JQWcwu6.jpgZDUYXTV.jpg

 

The side armor, of course should be weak, and 40MM still packs a punch, but to this extend?

 

Even if the round does not manage to penetrate, it still causes damage.

 

The T-140 Is penetrated by the AMV Marshal 40mm AP from the front an side

WmUJ9m2.jpgyJzXbUh.jpg

 

3. The damage of AT missiles/rockets and AT mines seems ok though. They cause a fixed damage to the vehicle, as long as you hit the hull, and not ERA or SLAT.

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On 08/03/2018 at 1:42 PM, hellfish6 said:

The tyres/tires on the Rhino are very fragile. I'm constantly damaging or destroying them on small objects like rocks and those low rubble walls. I don't remember having so many problems with flat tires with the other wheeled armored vehicles (Marshal, Marid, Strider, Gorgon, etc)... is the damage threshold different for the Rhino's tires?

 

Could I make a plea to at least include a repair kit in the vehicle inventory so I can change the tires and not just abandon the vehicle?

 

Yeah I noticed that too, they seem to have the same behavior that MRAPs wheels had back in the day. Read wet cardboard.

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2 hours ago, Yoshi_E said:

Even if the round does not manage to penetrate, it still causes damage.

WmUJ9m2.jpgyJzXbUh.jpg

 

 

Hey!

 

Yeah the 40mm seems a little bit too potent now maybe? At least from the front it should not be able to penetrate MBT's that well.

 

Have you experimented with range? Does the 40mm still penetrate at typical engagement ranges of 500 - 1000 meters? I'd like to know what you find out :)

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1 hour ago, arziben said:

 

Yeah I noticed that too, they seem to have the same behavior that MRAPs wheels had back in the day. Read wet cardboard.

We still have a general problem regarding tires in ArmA III. Neither MRAPS nor wheeled IFV or whatever should use plain standard Truck tires. Military combat vehicles use run flat tires quite eclusivly. As long as the rim and the inner solid rubber tire exists.... the mobility of the vehicle is reduced, but not gone.

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27 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

Yeah the 40mm seems a little bit too potent now maybe? At least from the front it should not be able to penetrate MBT's that well.

 

Have you experimented with range? Does the 40mm still penetrate at typical engagement ranges of 500 - 1000 meters? I'd like to know what you find out :)

 

The 40mm round has a starting velocity of roughly 1600m/s at arround 4km it is arround 1000m/s

At 1km it has a speed of 1415m/s and easly penetrates the front of the T-140k

At 2km it has a speed of 1260m/s and fails to penetrate

 

After some additional testing it seem to fail to penetrate at a speed below 1300m/s, at ~1.8km

Below 1km even 30mm can penetrate the T-140k.

 

The Kuma seems to suffer under the same, but slightly different armor problem, as shells can pass between the turret and hull into the tank and crew. The front armor itself seems to be sufficient, but the side armor is far from useful.

 

 

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Interesting, when I shot the T-140 in the side with the Varsuk (APFSDS) it got stopped by the side armour...

Hmmm maybe the 40mm or 125mm has been updated while the other hasn't?

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15 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

Interesting, when I shot the T-140 in the side with the Varsuk (APFSDS) it got stopped by the side armour...

Hmmm maybe the 40mm or 125mm has been updated while the other hasn't?

 

Are you sure?

As you can see it cuts through like butter for me, at ~1.6km

Exit speed is 905m/s sometimes even 1100m/s, enough to penetrate a second T-140k

 CLh3SkA.jpg

 

 

Edit: it seems the Hull has a lot more stopping power below the turret, maybe you experienced that? The crew area however has almost not stopping power

 

Edit: Just downloaded today's update, but nothing has changed. Results are the same

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nice to see BIS doing such a great job and the community giving such well informed feedback. thanks to all of you!

 

i just had a random thought.i understand that some more sophisticated solutions like submunitions for heat simulations or specific penetration properties might not work 100% reliably and are therefore substituted by more crude appropriations, that yield reproduceble results.

i just wonder, if reproduceble results are so important, because when in game you don't have the analytics view and as long as the effect does not look glitchy, a certain amount of glitch induced randomness might actually be a good thing, as long as the average (!) lethality of a given warhead at specific speed and angle is somewhat reliable and the glitch factor is not affected by system parameters like fps, netcode, lod, etc.

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1 minute ago, twistking said:

nice to see BIS doing such a great job and the community giving such well informed feedback. thanks to all of you!

 

i just had a random thought.i understand that some more sophisticated solutions like submunitions for heat simulations or specific penetration properties might not work 100% reliably and are therefore substituted by more crude appropriations, that yield reproduceble results.

i just wonder, if reproduceble results are so important, because when in game you don't have the analytics view and as long as the effect does not look glitchy, a certain amount of glitch induced randomness might actually be a good thing, as long as the average (!) lethality of a given warhead at specific speed and angle is somewhat reliable and the glitch factor is not affected by system parameters like fps, netcode, lod, etc.

Well technically evereything is effected by netcode and simspeed(fps).

However, bullets and rockets are client side meaning if you hit on your client you will hit on the server.

Missiles are server side and therefore depend entirely on the server and it's performance, that's why missiles are so weird and glitchy at times.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the new HEAT warhead simulation is performed on, server or client?

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I think before the thread is filled with penetration and damage charts and tests, we should wait a few days until the announced tweaks and changes for armor and ammunition handling come to an effect in a new build.

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4 minutes ago, Beagle said:

I think before the thread is filled with penetration and damage charts and tests, we should wait a few days until the announced tweaks and changes for armor and ammunition handling come to an effect in a new build.

Word.

 

I realize this too and I am contemplating creating a dedicated thread for wishlist/improvements stuff and this thread for actual feedback (response) to devbranch updates.

 

Came to the conclusion that I'll wait until datalock - assess the situation and start adressing areas of improvement/potential thereafter.

 

 

Some of the posts here remain very valid though - and the devs recognize that^^ :)

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PSA: Penetration in mm (ingame):  impactvelocity [m/s] * caliber * penetrability / 1000.  Caliber is an ammo property in CfgAmmo (not related to "bullet caliber"), penetrability is a material property. Penetrability of Arma 3 Armor Steel = 15.

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8 hours ago, Beagle said:

We still have a general problem regarding tires in ArmA III. Neither MRAPS nor wheeled IFV or whatever should use plain standard Truck tires. Military combat vehicles use run flat tires quite eclusivly. As long as the rim and the inner solid rubber tire exists.... the mobility of the vehicle is reduced, but not gone.

 

That's only really a problem in Arma if you assume that the destroyed tire state is meant to represent a flat. I don't think it is; there's an intermediate damage state where tires visibly "deflate", which usually looks like what you'd expect from a runflat. If anything, the problem is with civilian vehicles; they also have a "flat" state that makes it look like the tires are mildly underinflated.

 

IMO, the full "disintegrated tire" damage state is meant to represent catastrophic damage, as well as stand in for damage to the drivetrain. After all, you'd expect more than a flat from a direct hit from a 40mm shell or from running into a wall at 150kph.

 

That being said, it is a little silly that you can completely destroy an IFV tire with a few more shots than it takes to deflate them. If it were up to me, I'd keep the deflate threshold the same, but significantly increase the health of those sorts of tires so they can only be destroyed by small arms if they really take sustained fire.

 

3 hours ago, x3kj said:

PSA: Penetration in mm (ingame):  impactvelocity [m/s] * caliber * penetrability / 1000.  Caliber is an ammo property in CfgAmmo (not related to "bullet caliber"), penetrability is a material property. Penetrability of Arma 3 Armor Steel = 15.

 

Worth noting that, if my understanding of the A3 damage wiki page is correct, this only applies to kinetic rounds. Previously, HEAT was explosive, but that might not be the case with the new system used with the PCML.

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On 3/1/2018 at 6:38 PM, Yoshi_E said:

@Asheara Please take a look at the hitpoints  "hitcomturret" and "hitcomgun" for the vehicles: AMV-7 Marshall, CRV-6e Bobcat, IFV-6c Panther and IF-6a Cheetah.

A simple burst with a normal gun on the commander optics sets the hull and the main turret into the "badly damaged" state.

 

Also a lot of lights have duplicate names (can be found on almost all armored vehicles):
      "#light_l",
      "#light_l",      <----
      "#light_l2",
      "#light_r",
      "#light_r",      <----
      "#light_r2"

 

The duplicate light hitpoints should be fixed by now :)

Also, the turret hitpoints have been tweaked, it shouldn't give the total damage anymore. However, the values to make them last longer are still WIP

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