ARMA 3 land navigation system. Azimuths. Also: Shooting for groups and zeroing.

[Pickles0311 2]

Hey, so I downloaded ARMA 3 Apex from Steam this past Friday, and have been playing it all weekend. I'm loving the game. Very realistic, but have some commentary. I noticed the map/compass system seems a bit simplistic.  The map allows for 6 digit grids instead of 8. This would mean a fine accuracy of 100 meters squared rather than 10 meters squared. I would have assumed  BIS would have incorporated a clear plastic protractor that would allow for the placement of precise points for an 8 digit MGRS system.  Also, maybe allowing the player to use the protractor as a straight edge in order to draw a straight line between two points, and then realigning the protractor to obtain an azimuth once magnetic declination has been accounted for. Why didn't BIS include this? It seems kind of silly to include a military grid map, but leave out the primary purpose of having it. 

 

The other point I have isn't one of contention, but merely a want, lol. In regards to zeroing optics: First off, why don't they make it so that we can group holes on paper? Then use the elevation and windage turret knobs to bring point-of-impact onto point-of-aim. They could allow the player to run very large paper targets along a very long electronic wire/conveyor that you see in indoor shooting ranges, but in an outdoor environment. The player can input the exact distance to set the target in meters, thus allowing the player to zero the optic for whatever range of choosing. This would be an improvement over the current zeroing system which only allows the player to preset the reticle for increments of a hundred meters. This isn't a major gripe, but would be cool.

Subordinate to the previous point, I would like having accurate ballistics portrayed in ARMA 3. Things that would be taken into account such as barrel length, sight-height-over-bore, and cartridge load. For example, standard military 5.56 such as the M855 green tip has a pretty well understood trajectory, and should be accurately reflected in game. The same can go for other loads. But more unconventional cartridge loadings would require the programmers to refer to actual balistic tables for that cartridge combined with factors such as barrel length, etc. I think incorporating additional factors such as elevation, humidity, etc is going a bit too far, but there might be an option to include those if the programmers should decide to do so. 

 

I know some would say that I'm nitpicking, but I think both these features are central to any military simulator as they are basic and integral aspects of infantry skills.  The map alone loses relevance without the features described in my first paragraph. And my second paragraph is necessary for any precision work, which in a game focused on shooting, is a must. 

 

Other things I noticed are things in the mission editor that made me chuckle. The Opfor diver units are equipped with Keltec RFB rifles, but BIS redesignated them as 'underwater weapons.'   This amuses me because Keltec RFBs were notorious have having cycling issues due to under-gassing, especially when new. So expecting them to operate anywhere in an aquatic environment is hilariously absurd. A subtle joke on part of the BIS developers I'm guessing. lol 

 

P.S. I forgot to add. There should be a pace counting system incorporated to complement the map/compass land navigation system. All combat troops learn everything I mentioned above, and they also count their paces in order to keep track of distance walked. So for example: My pace count is 69 paces to 100 meters. Now, I don't expect the game to force players to count each pace, but maybe atleast a distance tracking system when walking. I apologize if this, or any of the above is already featured in the game. I've only been playing since Friday and am still learning the game.   :)

Anyhow, what do you guys think? 

[Pickles0311 2]

It's been a few days and still not a single response to my posting? I put a good deal of thought into this. I hope this isn't typical for this forum. 

[en3x 209]

Almost missed this thread. For now I will comment on the map tools first.

 

So the first time I realized importance of MGRS system (military grid reference system) is with United Operations at Land Nav courses.

Community used ACE as basis of advanced system and one of those are map tools. Here is example of "Roamer tool"

 

How does that compare with protractor Pickles?

 

Another interesting thing is subdividing grids. In this particular example we have map that have 2 digit grids labeled like real life counterpart.

Essentially no simplified Arma auto labeled grids/6 digit grids. Video reference is over here.

 

How could that tie in in Arma and does it make sense for current Vannila Arma sandbox concept?

[Pickles0311 2]

Okay, I looked at the videos, and this is exactly what I was talking about. A few notes: in the first video they are having some disagreement in finding the precise direction between the two points in the example. I am certain that that's due to the imprecise placement of the cross point on the tool in the first grid reference point. That can be solved by simply using the red line on the roamer tool instead of the not-touching cross lines. But details aside, this is exactly what I wanted. While the roamer tool is of a different style from the protractors I've used, the design and implementation is exactly the same. 

 

Sorry for being so insistent, but for a game that claims to be a military simulator, map reading skills and tools are fundamental; you lose basic functionality of any type of military unit without them. I didn't get through the entire video because the points I watched covered the most important parts, but all troops thoroughly learn, and are field tested in all these skills in bootcamp or other basic military schooling. 

 

So then, where is this function and how can I find this in game? lol. If it's a mod, then where can I obtain this, and why is this not included as a standard part of the game?? 

[en3x 209]

I wonder if that is possible since rotation point of roamer is on the circle cutout on the romer. (Is called romer not raomer. In another word Grid finder. I called it wrong name).

 

So if you would align on the red line your rotation would not be precise. Interesting to hear that protractors work similarly. I tend to hear and see this tools (protractors) a 

lot more then romers.

 

I agree on map reading skills. Bit unfortunate Arma 3 leadership deviated from older Arma 2 military simulator to a something called "sandbox". Their concept is to have

giant playground for all different player types from RP to KotH to mil sim so they tend to simplicate some things. Still provided good gameplay value and challenge this

is still doable if presented correctly to Bohemia.

 

The functions that you saw are available in mod called ACE (advanced combat environment 3). Note that map grid system was editing by United Operations which

is community (not like a clan or mil sim with mandatory training schedule or ranks) which play Arma 3 as close as possible to a real thing within reason.

 

Why isn't in a game? I don't think people requested this to get noticed, it may be one the thing that is not noticable right away but adds depth with time spent learning it.

There wasn't any good case or thread explaining pros and cons, how to implement in a game, why do it and what would it add to the game. But for sure interesting aspect of the game.

The closest to Land nav from BiS is one really crude example of Locating area (triangulation?) in Arma 3 Singleplayer mode "BootCamp". Try playing it, I already forgot the details.

[Pickles0311 2]

To answer your last question: Yes, not only does it make sense for standard vanilla ARMA, it is a must. No real world military operation is planned without precisely understanding relations between units and terrain via a map. This is most often done via the MGRS map, and the 8 digit grid system.  Speaking in terms of the game, this level of precision would allow individual players as well as units to realistically navigate the world using the map, use terrain features, without the use of the unrealistic and fake "blue moving unit marker."  They should get rid of that; it's childish and "arcadey."  Also, if you understand certain weapons, say a certain machine gun has a max effective range of 1500 meters, and you know enemy positions on your map , you then know if they are within your max effective range, etc. 

[Pickles0311 2]

10 minutes ago, en3x said:

I wonder if that is possible since rotation point of roamer is on the circle cutout on the romer. (Is called romer not raomer. In another word Grid finder. I called it wrong name).

 

So if you would align on the red line your rotation would not be precise. Interesting to hear that protractors work similarly. I tend to hear and see this tools (protractors) a 

lot more then romers.

 

I agree on map reading skills. Bit unfortunate Arma 3 leadership deviated from older Arma 2 military simulator to a something called "sandbox". Their concept is to have

giant playground for all different player types from RP to KotH to mil sim so they tend to simplicate some things. Still provided good gameplay value and challenge this

is still doable if presented correctly to Bohemia.

 

The functions that you saw are available in mod called ACE (advanced combat environment 3). Note that map grid system was editing by United Operations which

is community (not like a clan or mil sim with mandatory training schedule or ranks) which play Arma 3 as close as possible to a real thing within reason.

 

Why isn't in a game? I don't think people requested this to get noticed, it may be one the thing that is not noticable right away but adds depth with time spent learning it.

There wasn't any good case or thread explaining pros and cons, how to implement in a game, why do it and what would it add to the game. But for sure interesting aspect of the game.

The closest to Land nav from BiS is one really crude example of Locating area (triangulation?) in Arma 3 Singleplayer mode "BootCamp". Try playing it, I already forgot the details.

 

 

You say the mod is called ACE, but is also further edited by United Operations? What type of editing was done? Is it better? I want realistic and precise functionality, so I will download from whichever source is more accurate and realistic. This is good news  :)

[en3x 209]

7 hours ago, Pickles0311 said:

To answer your last question: Yes, not only does it make sense for standard vanilla ARMA, it is a must. No real world military operation is planned without precisely understanding relations between units and terrain via a map. This is most often done via the MGRS map, and the 8 digit grid system.  Speaking in terms of the game, this level of precision would allow individual players as well as units to realistically navigate the world using the map, use terrain features, without the use of the unrealistic and fake "blue moving unit marker."  They should get rid of that; it's childish and "arcadey."  Also, if you understand certain weapons, say a certain machine gun has a max effective range of 1500 meters, and you know enemy positions on your map , you then know if they are within your max effective range, etc. 

 

I think if this would be implemented the singleplayer mission showcasing and explaining this would be a must. Before courses I had no idea about navigation and I doubt average player does too!

 

In regards of editing I think they changed the way topographic looks like. Its clearer and more readable but I forgot technical changes. As I mentioned its only 2 digit grid so you need to subdivide 

to get your location. I would have to find thread on the forum on UO (united operations) about it to tell you more. You can try to find it too ; )

[Pickles0311 2]

Okay. So I am still new to the game and playing the single player campaign. I'm on the mission where you wash up on the beach after you and your men attempted to withdraw from the area via boat, while under pursuit by enemy forces. Now I have to make it on my own to link up with friendly forces. This mission is a perfect example of why all players should have access to the land navigation system I requested, and which you are describing. I can see where I am on the map, and see the coordinates for my destination. But I have no method of divining a compass bearing to arrive at that destination. Is it 30°, or is it 50° that I should move at? You know? I am running just based on guessing with the on-screen compass, map and orientation of terrain features, buildings around me, and that childish little blue circle that represents me on the map. That does the job, but having the ability to zone in on a very specific point would add significantly to my ability to survive.  I guess, unless you've been in the military, you have no idea how important this is, especially when you are trying to be stealthy and avoid contact with enemy forces or civilians. 

 

That being said, do you have a link where can I obtain the ACE mod as edited by United Operations? I think this will be very beneficial.  :)

[Pickles0311 2]

Hey man, you got a link to the United Operations mod? I checked out the link to their forum, but can't find a link for their edited version of the ACE mod. 

[BLACKOUT6IX 250]

14 minutes ago, Pickles0311 said:

Hey man, you got a link to the United Operations mod? I checked out the link to their forum, but can't find a link for their edited version of the ACE mod. 

The normal version of ACE includes the map tools, you can find it here

[Pickles0311 2]

en3x was saying there is an optimized version that has an improved map system? I will download from the link you provided, but in the future, if I manage to locate the optimized version, will I need to uninstall this one in order to upgrade to the United Operations version?

[Pickles0311 2]

Okay, sorry it's been a while. Been busy with school. I have attempted to install the ACE 3 mod, but it says I also need the CBA mod to use it. So I downloaded the CBA mod, and put it into my ARMA 3 folder, but when I open up the ARMA 3 launcher and select the mods I want to activate, it only shows the ACE 3 mod, but not the CBA mod. It says there are "Dependencies Missing" which I am assuming they are referring to the CBA mod.  Why is it not showing up even though I put the CBA file in my ARMA 3 folder?

[R0adki11 3945]

2 minutes ago, Pickles0311 said:

Okay, sorry it's been a while. Been busy with school. I have attempted to install the ACE 3 mod, but it says I also need the CBA mod to use it. So I downloaded the CBA mod, and put it into my ARMA 3 folder, but when I open up the ARMA 3 launcher and select the mods I want to activate, it only shows the ACE 3 mod, but not the CBA mod. It says there are "Dependencies Missing" which I am assuming they are referring to the CBA mod.  Why is it not showing up even though I put the CBA file in my ARMA 3 folder?

 

Where did you get ACE from? And where did you get CBA from?

[Pickles0311 2]

This website.

 

https://ace3mod.com/wiki/user/installation-guide.html

[Pickles0311 2]

I just now pressed extract file on the CBA folder in the ARMA 3 folder, and it asked me if I want to replace something with something else (I'm not super good with computers so I don't understand lol), and I said yes. It said it's gonna take like 2 hours for the process to complete.  Is this normal?

[Pickles0311 2]

To be exact, it said this:

Would you like to replace the existing file    

C:\Users\Adam\Documents\Arma 3\@CBA_A3\

 

with this one?

 

@CBA_A3\

 

I clicked yes, and now it's gonna take like 2 hours, lol.  Please tell me I didn't mess something up. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Pickles0311
spelling and grammar

[Pickles0311 2]

Now it says like 12 minutes, but it keeps changing. 

[Pickles0311 2]

Okay, I feel really dumb now. But I think I got it fixed. I deleted the CBA folders and files from my ARMA 3 folder, and redownloaded the CBA mod through steam, and it put it in the right place. So now the mod seems to be working! lol.  Totally thrilled about that. About to dive in and figure out what's new.

 

Can a mod put this thread back in ARMA 3 General please? I think my troubleshooting issue is resolved. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Pickles0311
Added a request

[Pickles0311 2]

Okay, so I have been reading the instructions for the ACE 3 mod from the main website, and there are so many details that I will have to learn. But first and formost, The reason I made this post:  I stumbled upon the land navigation tools!!  The only problem is that the map grid system and tool arn't scaled appropriately for use in game. Each grid square and the corresponding tool are way too large given the playing area. While it is possible, due to the sheer size of the map tool and grid, it's very tiresome to use effectively. But I did a basic test in the editor. I placed a random rucksack in some random hillside, and then placed myself a good distance away. I marked the location of the rucksack by drawing a small dot on the map. I got a compass direction (290°), using the map tool (roamer), between a specific location and the rucksack. And then in the game, I actually used my compass to follow the same heading (290°).  In a short period of time, I find myself upon my lost rucksack.  

 

The system has everything one needs to conduct proper, realistic land navigation. IMO, only 2 things need to be done to improve it:   1) The smaller subordinate grid lines that keep appearing when you zoom in must not be there. If they need to be there, then maybe they can make the main grid lines bold.   2) The roamer tool and large grid system must be shrunk down in relation to the actual playing area so that the player can effectively utilize the roamer tool to get compass headings.  I'm not sure if BIS is using actual military map scale, but can anything be done?

 

Also, if a mod sees this, can you please return this thread to ARMA 3 General forums, or another one? I don't think it belongs in troubleshooting anymore. 

[Pickles0311 2]

Okay, I'm going to redact my previous post a bit. It was late last night and I didn't have time to fully investigate everything before bed. I spent a significant amount of time learning the functions of ACE's navigation system today though. Basically, which keystrokes bring up which features, etc.  I must say that I am extremely impressed!! In the mission editor, I made a basic little land navigation course for myself. I placed a ketchup bottle way out in the forest. I noted the grid coordinates in the bottom screen of the mission editor, and jotted them down on a pad of paper that I used for this test.  I then placed myself in this Marina town. I used the roamer tool to plot points of landmarks on the map, such as the edge of a far away building, a fork in a dirt road, etc. I then used the tool to find bearings from one checkpoint to another. I did all that before starting off on my walk. Anyhow, my final checkpoint before finally embarking to find the ketchup bottle was the fork in the road several hundred meters away from my supposed ketchup bottle. The whole while, I moved from point to point using my vanilla compass. I was standing over my ketchup bottle in no time.   

 

I then decided to randomly place myself somewhere on the island by using Alt + LMB. I then used my compass to get a back azimuth from two visible landmarks, such as a radio tower, and the edge of another recognizable feature, such as a radio dome. I then used the straight edge of the tool to intersect both lines and found my position exactly.  I am using Veteran mode so that there are no goofy position markers. 

 

This system is incredibly impressive, and exactly what I was looking for!   I only have 2 minor gripes. 1) The in game compass needs to be rendered better. It's hard to make out every degree on the compass. It's not perfect, but it works. But in real life, you can actually bring the compass to your face to line up the center wire with the U-notch on the folding magnifying lens, just like rifle sights. You can still look through the magnifying lens to see the compass readings while simultaneously using the cross hair and U-notch. Not a big complaint, but it is a place for improvement. 2) The smaller grid lines should be removed. Using the Roamer tool, they are not necessary. I really only want to see the 1000 meter grid lines. Is there a way to remove them?

 

One last source of irritation I have is in the mission editor specifically: While I did use this function for my Resection test, it's a pain, overall. How do you get rid of the Alt+LMB teleport? I hate this. 

 

Final question: Can I get a roamer tool for my character during the campaign? I would love to use it for my current, "find your way back to friendlies" mission.