Tanks - Missile flight profiles and weapon improvements

[FoxFort 341]

I'm getting really low performance with HEAT, shot to the turret of AMV nothing. Shot in engine of T-140 nothing, in 3rd mission where you have to destroy your friendly tank, 3 shots in engine nothing.

[x3kj 1247]

According to whats in the changelogs... i assume the hitpoints are already balanced for heat simulation via submunition, but the submunition for HEAT isnt implemented yet fully in the branch.

[jwllorens 43]

2 hours ago, x3kj said:

According to whats in the changelogs... i assume the hitpoints are already balanced for heat simulation via submunition, but the submunition for HEAT isnt implemented yet fully in the branch.

 

Which is wierd, because in my tests, HEAT is more effective against medium and light armor than either HE or APFSDS.

 

I found during the campaign too, when you are on the last mission and fighting loads of Rhinos, HEAT rounds can knock them out in one go while APFSDS seems to get eaten by slat armor or reactive plates. 

 

Slat armor and reactive plates should be more effective against HEAT, no?  Only marginally effective against kinetic penetrators?

[SuicideKing 233]

11 hours ago, jwllorens said:

 

Slat armor and reactive plates should be more effective against HEAT, no?  Only marginally effective against kinetic penetrators?

Slat cages should help against rockets, not sure how effective they are against shells. Some people claim that they might at most cause slight deflection to kinetic rounds, although i can't help but think that large calibre rounds wouldn't be effected, due to their momentum. Maybe the fins of a sabot getting caught on the cage may have an effect? idk. and i don't know whether that's something BI should care about.

[scavenjer 112]

49 minutes ago, SuicideKing said:

Slat cages should help against rockets, not sure how effective they are against shells. Some people claim that they might at most cause slight deflection to kinetic rounds, although i can't help but think that large calibre rounds wouldn't be effected, due to their momentum. Maybe the fins of a sabot getting caught on the cage may have an effect? idk. and i don't know whether that's something BI should care about.

Well, the leopard 2A5 has a hollow wedge on the front of the turret that is specifically designed to make penetrators shatter/"tumble" after penetration so the main armour behind it can catch what's left.

 

This has varying effects depending on the projectile, if the projectile doesn't straight up shatter it will tumble so it doesn't hit the armour straight on, this leads to a significant decrease of l/d ratio which is the main benefit and property of long rod penetrators, thus allowing the main armour to confidently catch it.

 

Wether thin mild steel slat armour has this effect.... I kinda doubt, there's also no angle to speak of.

 

Highly doubt that for the vehicles that can equip it, it would be of any help because their base armour probably wouldn't be sufficient to catch the shell anyway even if it travelled sideways by a bit.

[Strike_NOR 898]

12 hours ago, jwllorens said:

Which is wierd, because in my tests, HEAT is more effective against medium and light armor than either HE or APFSDS.

 HEAT is most likely subject to change in a very near future update to the devbranch. They introduced an offset parameter now that allows you to spawn the submunition forwards or aft of the parent munition (simulating stand-off distance) to the target. This mechanic allows for two very important things:

 

1. If the parent munition can have its own hit effect, it can now be a pure HE/Frag effect (like a real HEAT warhead has).
2. The submunition can now act as the penetrating shaped charge jet, which has an armor-piercing effect.

This means that ArmA3 should now handle the HEAT weapon as a true multi-purpose weapon, as well as be tailored for different balances of HE and AP effects.

 

Currently, before HEAT rework, the HEAT ammo works as a strange splashdamage weapon (indirectHit) with very high damage. This does not reflect how these weapons work IRL, nor make a lot of sense from a game-design point of view. It's basically like saying "Let's make a second HE ammo, make it explode with more damage, but in a smaller area and call it HEAT". - In other words, it is essentially abusing excessive HE damage to gain anti-tank lethality.

 

So to address your comment/observations, the HEAT ammo currently deals very high damage intended for tanks, but that in turn makes it just as deadly towards medium/light vehicles. Since these have lower HP/Protection they simply die faster. APFSDS works by penetration mechanics, which makes it deal damage based on how much speed it loses in the target. If it's a light target, it can "overpenetrate" without dealing very much damage. This means APFSDS can actually do more damage against heavily armored targets, than lightly armored ones. (You can see this when shooting the back of pickups, trucks and even sometimes when shooting through helicopters.)

 

Current HE does somewhat large damage over a large area, and as such, during a vehicle direct hit, it may actually do less damage than HEAT, and therefore seem weaker.

 

 

So let's hope for a complete HEAT rework soon, where HEAT has A: An explosive effect (small fragmentation) and B: An armor piercing effect (strong against heavy armor/weak against unarmored).

 

1 hour ago, SuicideKing said:

Slat cages should help against rockets, not sure how effective they are against shells. Some people claim that they might at most cause slight deflection to kinetic rounds, although i can't help but think that large calibre rounds wouldn't be effected, due to their momentum.

 

Yeah, there was a huge SLAT vs RPG debate. I guess it ended with ArmA3 isn't real life. But to sum it up: SLAT cages are designed to specifically counter RPG-7 rockets, due to their fuze wiring. During a best-case successful defence against RPG-7, the fuze is destroyed before the warhead can detonate - meaning the entire armor-piercing effect is lost. This leads to minimal damage to the SLAT and vehicle. The second best-case is that the fuze is destroyed, so the shaped charge cannot form, but the warhead still explodes on impact. This means there is no armor-piercing effect, but the HE charge still detonates, causing some fragmentation and possibly significant damage to the SLAT cage. Worst case scenario: If the RPG-tip hits the actual SLAT bars (instead of between), it will explode as designed - but have an increased standoff distance. This allows the shaped charge to completely form before hitting the vehicle main armor and may even increase the effective penetration depth - compared to hitting a vehicle without SLAT armor.

 

So from a game-design standpoint this is really hard to simulate, as it would require extremely detailed firegeometry meshes, or a Random Number Generator feature that emulates the chance that the RPG reacts in one of the three ways I described above. This is also unwanted, as it causes unpredictability. 

 

The best realistic approach (AFAIK) would be to make it only work against RPG-7, and do virtually nothing against other heat weapons (except for maybe very oblique angles).

The best game-design approach (IMO) would probably be to make it effective against RPG-7's and a little effective against every other HEAT weapon.

 

A bad game-design approach (IMO) would be to make SLAT defeat ALL HEAT weapons (because why the heck would you ever opt to use a vehicle without SLATs then?)

 

Edit:

Against APFSDS and AP ammo (High Density Core ammo) SLAT should effectively do near nothing. As if shooting plywood with .50 cal. Sure, the bullet will take some damage, but it will still do significant damage to whatever is behind it. On the other side, SLAT armor should not suffer much damage from these kinetic penetrators, since it is like the equivalent of shooting a wire-mesh fence with a .50 cal bullet. Even if you hit a piece of wire, the fence will be mostly intact!

[scavenjer 112]

Personally I think cage armour and such should balance itself out because of added weight and size, not to mention many mission makes will just make it cost more, therefore making it work against all HEAT is fair enough.

[Strike_NOR 898]

9 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

Personally I think cage armour and such should balance itself out because of added weight and size

I can see that, but one of the main advantages of the cage armor is that it is lightweight and cheap compared to most other anti-HEAT systems, except APS (in weight - APS is very costly, and you would not primarily use that against RPG-7 anyways). 

[scavenjer 112]

2 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

I can see that, but one of the main advantages of the cage armor is that it is lightweight and cheap compared to most other anti-HEAT systems, except APS (in weight - APS is very costly, and you would not primarily use that against RPG-7 anyways). 

Still several tons (1-3t) and cost is ofcourse chosen by mission makers.

[Strike_NOR 898]

In any case, it will be interesting to see how SLAT armor will react to AP, HE, HEAT and tandem HEAT in the future dev updates.

 

If the devs wanted the SLAT armor to be a "Get out of jail free card" (as it is now) then technically you could just angle the tank 90 degrees and use one of the other 3 sides of SLAT armor to keep taking hits without consequence. However, I am getting the feeling that they are trying a rock paper scissor method where:

 

SLAT = reduce or cancel effectiveness of light HEAT weapons (rpg-7 - maaws basically).

ERA = reduce or cancel the effectiveness of all light and medium HEAT weapons (larger HEAT weaponry/small tandem HEAT).

Heavy ERA = reduce or cancel the effectiveness of ALL HEAT weapons (meaning even large Air to Ground missiles may see reduced effectiveness against tanks).

 

Otherwise it just becomes rather bland. Add-on armor = 1 extra life guarantee.

 

I'd laugh if the Nyx cage armor protected it from a Macer (maverick), or Vorona.

[scavenjer 112]

Macer would hit the top armour and probably avoid any cage/ERA add on so...

I'd be okay with cage working against most forms of HEAT, the amount of HEAT weaponry used is very high in most missions and scenarios anyway.

[SuicideKing 233]

8 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

A bad game-design approach (IMO) would be to make SLAT defeat ALL HEAT weapons (because why the heck would you ever opt to use a vehicle without SLATs then?)

well the answer is, you wouldn't, unless the mission maker wants you to be without it. Which is up to the mission maker! Maybe the AAF ran out of slat cages! etc.

secondly, with the advent of Top Attack, i think it effectively only protects from dumbfire rockets/direct attacks. Which is fine, since players will probably use top attack most of the time when possible. It's possible the AI also chooses top attack when it can - i have been hit by top attack at least once. Further, the number of rockets fired at players by AI is usually quite high, so it's almost desirable, albeit maybe not the most realistic.

Finally, it's possible they let the submunitions spawn anyway but at the point of explosion (i.e. slat cage), so they probably may lose some effectiveness or end up with a higher spread/etc. If the submunition velocity/other params is different per warhead, then it could effectively mean that they're only useful against RPG/PCML/MAAWS. but that remains to be seen, of course.

 

6 hours ago, scavenjer said:

not to mention many mission makes will just make it cost more, therefore making it work against all HEAT is fair enough.

Of course, many of us don't make grunts do the work of Army requisition officers :P We are great at coming up with excuses not to give people all the toys, though. XD

I'd rarely give something like a Kamysh a slat cage, especially if it's AI. But I'd rather Marids have it, since they're paper, and it's no fun for the crew if they die the first time they get hit by an RPG from somewhere.

[SuicideKing 233]

Well... :D

 

Quote

Tweaked: Sabot rounds nowdeal less damage to the cage armor 

Added: A new submunitionParentSpeedCoef submunition parameter   

[FoxFort 341]

After this update, I am having better results with HEAT. I was able to defeat Slammer from side, with 2-3 shots ~400m, While for Rhino MGS, I got it from behind with 5-6 shells from ~120m, it didn't explode but I killed the crew so, plus for penetration kills. AMV Marshall is still making holes in T-140 with an ease. This is all during last mini-campaign mission. Also I must noted that HEAT shells are making too big explosions, same as HE.

[scavenjer 112]

3 minutes ago, FoxFort said:

After this update, I am having better results with HEAT. I was able to defeat Slammer from side, with 2-3 shots ~400m, While for Rhino MGS, I got it from behind with 5-6 shells from ~120m, it didn't explode but I killed the crew so, plus for penetration kills. AMV Marshall is still making holes in T-140 with an ease. This is all during last mini-campaign mission. Also I must noted that HEAT shells are making too big explosions, same as HE.

HEAT AFAIK is still the same, they just added an additional parameter to be used.

[Strike_NOR 898]

3 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

HEAT AFAIK is still the same, they just added an additional parameter to be used.

 

Submunition parameters have been trickling in one by one over the last couple of weeks. It all points towards redesigning the way HEAT ammunition acts in the game, which is good :)

 

Like you say though, the implementation of new HEAT mechanics, have not been introduced. Yet.

 

However, what @FoxFort is seeing may be a result of:

 

Quote

Tweaked: Penetration and balancing across multiple vehicles 

 

Which has also been done over the last two updates, and may not be complete yet :) 

 

11 minutes ago, FoxFort said:

Also I must noted that HEAT shells are making too big explosions, same as HE

 

I'll just say this. Size isn't all :) The actual explosion is often very small, while slow burning compositions and more generate a lot of smoke, giving the appearance of a large explosion. That's why Hollywood uses fuel canisters to create "explosions", rather than real explosives. Real explosions are "boring" for the audience :) I've been so lucky to have experience with different military grade high and low-explosives, professionally. It all depends on:

-What type of explosive is used?

-What composition is it used with (zirconium for incendiary, phosphorous for smoke/incendiary etc).

-Where does it explode? (on ground, under ground, over ground, far into the air, water etc).

-What is around the explosion? (Dust, dirt, mud, water, grass, leaves etc).

-What is the weather conditions? (Shockwave condensation/visible shockwave?).

 

Also, most high explosives are so powerful that they last so briefly you have to be expecting it to happen for the eye to catch it. C4 actually detonates with almost no smoke residue, just a huge bright yellow flash.

 

Anyways. I hear your point. There is little variation in ArmA 3 explosion effects. I know Reyhard was showing off some smokepuff effects with the cluster bombs a while back. It could probably be used in the same fashion for HEAT, if they inherit the same submunition configuration :)

 

*Waiting patiently*

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

Hello, I have a suggestion which I reallllly hope you guys take into consideration. Should just be a few small tweaks I'd imagine.

 

 

Can these indicators be changed so the hull turns instead of the turret, like this?

 

 

I feel like it would make driving much easier from the gunner or commander's position.

[martin_lee 33]

That will make SP driving much easier :) Although irl I think the indictor is how it is now.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

Slammer UP needs its 105mm back, unless there is some reason thats not a good idea that can be explained here :)

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

2 hours ago, martin_lee said:

That will make SP driving much easier :) Although irl I think the indictor is how it is now.

 

I don't think irl really matters in this case. :P

[Ex3B 265]

36 minutes ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

Slammer UP needs its 105mm back, unless there is some reason thats not a good idea that can be explained here :)

because otherwise NATO MBTs are worse than even AAF tanks at actually being an MBT.

They are the slowest tank, they suck at climbing hills, the standard version seems to have a bit lesss armor than the Kuma. It also has ever so slightly less firepower (according to the config files I've been looking at, the Kuma's Sabot rounds have a little higher muzzle velocity).

So the M2A1 slammer is slower, lacks a commander MG, has less armor, and its main gun is a little weaker.... oh but it carries troops? congratualtions, its an IFV, not an MBT

The M2A4... even slower, now has less armor, and the weakest main gun of all, carries troops? Ok, its a very well protected IFV...

If the NATO MBTs are inferior to the Kumas, which are supposed to be old NATO MBTs, it makes no sense.

[Strike_NOR 898]

@Night515 @martin_lee @fn_Quiksilver & @Ex3B .

 

Don't mean to nitpick, but you have gone off-topic. 

 

This is the Missile flight profiles and weapons improvement thread :)

[SuicideKing 233]

14 hours ago, FoxFort said:

After this update, I am having better results with HEAT. I was able to defeat Slammer from side, with 2-3 shots ~400m, While for Rhino MGS, I got it from behind with 5-6 shells from ~120m, it didn't explode but I killed the crew so, plus for penetration kills. AMV Marshall is still making holes in T-140 with an ease. This is all during last mini-campaign mission. Also I must noted that HEAT shells are making too big explosions, same as HE.

probably the better place for this is 

 

[dragon01 902]

20mm feels much better now, though rounds from Nyx' autocannon seem to ricochet more than they explode. Damage seems good when they do explode, at least.

 

EDIT: Although I have to point out that the Blackfoot's gun sound and ROF still suck. 

[Yoshi_E 178]

First of all props to the guys who worked overtime, to push out the update this later at night.

 

Quote

Added: 105mm, 120mm and 125mm HEAT shells, RPG32, Titan and Scalpel now use HEAT submunition (damage values WIP) 

 

Its good to see that HEAT uses projectile like mechanics. Though it seems that some ERA (e.g. Rhino UP) wont activate from it.

Cant give any feedback about the damage, as both the weapon and the vehicle armor is still WIP.

 

I wonder which vehicle / weapon will get Tandem HEAT, as mentioned in the field manual.