The Iraq Thread

[Longinius 1]

"our class field trip was killed that day and i think that was provocation enough to warrent war."

This statement lead me to believe the field trip was cancelled, thats what I made the statement I did.

If you had said "my class was wiped out" or something to that effect I would have understood what you were talking about.

[ran 0]

i don't know which threads this belongs to but :

i was watching Arte and they shown pictures of the Iraqi Oil ministery building , it was one of the only non-burning building of the block and was under the protection of a whole US compagny

[joshnolan225 0]

sorry but Im leaving this thread, i leave for Marine corps boot camp next month and after that, i dont know. people in this thread are so close minded and stubborn that it reminds me of myself almost a while ago.  no one can say anything with out recieving a shitload of blithing remarks from others.  i myself may be guilty of that so i apologize and i say good bye, i just want people to know that not everyone agrees with them and it doesnt make them evil or a bad person. just someone with different veiws. I say that people need to get off their soapbox and look around, we a re all human and i think some of us take our stances to the extreme,(denoirs comment about killing Bush). to Gollum1 I already explaind my Killem all comment and maybe you should go back and read it.bye

[Longinius 1]

"(denoirs comment about killing Bush)"

Indeed. Extremely extreme when compared to your KILL EM ALL.

As for the oil ministry building. Well, the coalition can spare troops to guard oil wells and administration buildings, but not hospitals or museums with ancient art. Yep, this war sure AINT about oil...

[ralphwiggum 6]

let's be realistic again.

oil can be used for reconstruction of Iraq after war. while the artifacts cannot. they are both important, but for immediate future, and to survive, you need to have somrthing to sell and buy foods. artifacts sure won't do that unless you loan them to other museums.

if US did not guard oil ministry building, and let go of control, i'm pretty sure some ppl would have said "US did not care about rebuilding and did not protect source of money that could be used to rebuild"

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 13 2003,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">let's be realistic again.

oil can be used for reconstruction of Iraq after war. while the artifacts cannot. they are both important, but for immediate future, and to survive, you need to have somrthing to sell and buy foods. artifacts sure won't do that unless you loan them to other museums.

if US did not guard oil ministry building, and let go of control, i'm pretty sure some ppl would have said "US did not care about rebuilding and did not protect source of money that could be used to rebuild" <span id='postcolor'>

but , have you seen the pictures ? they were quite a lot standing around the ministery doing nothing

but frankly , 2 men , just 2 men to protect a museum containing the most important patrimony of the region , an unestimable collection of artefacts , 2 men ? while there were mayb e2 compagnies for the oil minister ?

and what the hell would be so important in the oil minister ? registeries ? papers ? the soldiers would just have to take them with them and to put them in some safe place

the building ? because the hospitals , the health ministery , the interior ministery , the agriculture ministery are less important than oil ministery for the reconstruction of iraq ?

[Longinius 1]

"oil can be used for reconstruction of Iraq after war. while the artifacts cannot. they are both important, but for immediate future, and to survive, you need to have somrthing to sell and buy foods. artifacts sure won't do that unless you loan them to other museums."

What good is that oil when the people are dieing because they cant get care at hospitals, because all food has been looted and because they risk getting shot on the streets?

[turms 0]

George Bush has accused Syria of having chemical weapons.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Asked if Syria could face military action, he said: "They just need to cooperate."

<span id='postcolor'>

Now this is disturbing...Talk about pre-emptive strikes

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,14:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but , have you seen the pictures ? they were quite a lot standing around the ministery doing nothing

but frankly , 2 men , just 2 men to protect a museum containing the most important patrimony of the region , an unestimable collection of artefacts , 2 men ? while there were mayb e2 compagnies for the oil minister ?

and what the hell would be so important in the oil minister ? registeries ? papers ? the soldiers would just have to take them with them and to put them in some safe place

the building ? because the hospitals , the health ministery , the interior ministery , the agriculture ministery are less important than oil ministery for the reconstruction of iraq ?<span id='postcolor'>

Wird logic isn't it. I can't understand how that makes sense as well.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,20:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What good is that oil when the people are dieing because they cant get care at hospitals, because all food has been looted and because they risk getting shot on the streets?<span id='postcolor'>

what good is an artifact with your logic?

it seems like some ppl think Baghdad is a quiet place without any threats to US forces, which i doubt. i think there should be another division dealing with guarding crucial releif agency places. however, with only 3 divisions that's near damn impossible.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,20:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but , have you seen the pictures ? they were quite a lot standing around the ministery doing nothing

but frankly , 2 men , just 2 men to protect a museum containing the most important patrimony of the region , an unestimable collection of artefacts , 2 men ? while there were mayb e2 compagnies for the oil minister ?

and what the hell would be so important in the oil minister ? registeries ? papers ? the soldiers would just have to take them with them and to put them in some safe place

the building ? because the hospitals , the health ministery , the interior ministery , the agriculture ministery  are less important than oil ministery for the reconstruction of iraq ?<span id='postcolor'>

maybe ppl were not looting that building since US forces were there, and thus no one to make US soldiers run around yelling them to "stop or i'll shoot?"

the oil ministry might have info about where to contact and the procedure and specification of oil wells. and more info on who the seller/buyer is.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 13 2003,14:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,20:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What good is that oil when the people are dieing because they cant get care at hospitals, because all food has been looted and because they risk getting shot on the streets?<span id='postcolor'>

what good is an artifact with your logic?

it seems like some ppl think Baghdad is a quiet place without any threats to US forces, which i doubt. i think there should be another division dealing with guarding crucial releif agency places. however, with only 3 divisions that's near damn impossible.<span id='postcolor'>

Tough shit isn't it, it's got to be in the war plans to protect what you control.

What is happening is quite a lot like nazis getting rid of historical artifacts and looting, only now the US forces just let the local criminals do it for them so no one can say anything. Well peope will still hold them responsible, at least some.

[ran 0]

yeah .. but the more it lasts , the more i think all that is weird , it's got weirder and weirder during the past years and now it's getting uncontrollable

i'm more and more thinking about retiring and finding a nice safe quiet place where noone would come and bother me where i could live in peace for the rest of my life .... it's a better alternative than suicide (sry , mid-life crisis again)

[Longinius 1]

"what good is an artifact with your logic?"

I was talking about hospitals in that post.

As for artifacts, I still say they could have taken some people from that oilminestry and placed at the museum instead.

OR they could have gone in with UN support, under a more thought through plan, and actually have the manpower to guard the ministry, the wells, the museums, the hospitals and the street. But no, what am I saying, of course not. The people are MUCH better off this way...

"it seems like some ppl think Baghdad is a quiet place without any threats to US forces, which i doubt. i think there should be another division dealing with guarding crucial releif agency places. however, with only 3 divisions that's near damn impossible."

Yeah, thats what you get for going cowboy.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 13 2003,20:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what good is an artifact with your logic?<span id='postcolor'>

so for you , it's not that important if the iraqi patrimony , our patrimony is transformed into ashes by a bunch of furious illitered assholes ?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i'm more and more thinking about retiring and finding a nice safe quiet place where noone would come and bother me where i could live in peace for the rest of my life .... it's a better alternative than suicide (sry , mid-life crisis again)<span id='postcolor'>

Except suicide is not an alternative for stress... at least try to take Dubya with you. Or maybe Rumsfeld.

I'll give you a line I picked up in Canada: Take it easy, relax.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 13 2003,20:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i'm more and more thinking about retiring and finding a nice safe quiet place where noone would come and bother me where i could live in peace for the rest of my life .... it's a better alternative than suicide (sry , mid-life crisis again)<span id='postcolor'>

  Except suicide is not an alternative for stress...  at least try to take Dubya with you.    Or maybe Rumsfeld.

I'll give you a line I picked up in Canada:  Take it easy, relax.<span id='postcolor'>

yeah ... canada .... find me a fisherman's hut near one of the great lakes with some paper to write and to draw on , a PC with OFP and resistance and i'll be all set

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 13 2003,20:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is happening is quite a lot like nazis getting rid of historical artifacts and looting, only now the US forces just let the local criminals do it for them so no one can say anything.  Well peope will still hold them responsible, at least some.  <span id='postcolor'>

your analogy is not working since you are subscribing to the idea that US is deliberately letting looters do US's work. Nazis did it with their own hands, while US (even if your idea is true) did not. so US != Nazi.

so US has to control everything? geeze, where's your US should not control everything attitude?

i heard that there is sentiment that Arabs are accusing US of letting the looting happen to pave way for US's basis for government.

[Longinius 1]

"i heard that there is sentiment that Arabs are accusing US of letting the looting happen to pave way for US's basis for government."

Does make some sense. Its easy for the coalition to come with a statement like

- For your own safety we must impose martial law. You are unable to stop the lootings yourself, but our security forces will keep you safe...yadayadayada

Not saying thats the plan, but if I was an Iraqi I would sure be worried about it as a potential event.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 13 2003,20:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what good is an artifact with your logic?<span id='postcolor'>

so for you , it's not that important if the iraqi patrimony , our patrimony is transformed into ashes by a bunch of furious illitered assholes ?<span id='postcolor'>

hey hey! i was just showing falacy of the logic

and for god sakes, watch where you are aiming. "illiterate assholes" could mean those looters who looted Baghdad museum.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 13 2003,21:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 13 2003,20:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what good is an artifact with your logic?<span id='postcolor'>

so for you , it's not that important if the iraqi patrimony , our patrimony is transformed into ashes by a bunch of furious illitered assholes ?<span id='postcolor'>

hey hey! i was just showing falacy of the logic

and for god sakes, watch where you are aiming. "illiterate assholes" could mean those looters who looted Baghdad museum. <span id='postcolor'>

these artifacts represent the memory of humanity , some of them re unestimable recipients of our history and the history of the mid-east , i agree about the fact that these artifacts don't have a big financial (is that the word) value , but they have an historical value which is millions times bigger and thousands(ok , hundreds most of the time) times older than the US patrimony

yes , when i talk about the illiterate (thx by the way for the correct othograph) i talk about the looters who are destroying their own history , the remains of their own roots and who have no clue about what they are doing

and it's a fact that a lot of iraqi are not well read (i have to admit most of them aren't illiterate)

[ran 0]

i also have to add that this discussion is maybe based on a cultural difference between the "old world" and the USA , a difference in the appreciation of historical artefacts

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,15:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 13 2003,20:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I'll give you a line I picked up in Canada: Take it easy, relax.<span id='postcolor'>

yeah ... canada .... find me a fisherman's hut near one of the great lakes with some paper to write and to draw on , a PC with OFP and resistance and i'll be all set <span id='postcolor'>

Trust me, I'd like that as well. Where I live in Vanier SOME people piss me off so much at times I'll give them a nice yelling. Ever seen a deer in the headlights of a car, you've seen what happens to people that piss me off. It's necessary sometimes... especially when there is no one to back you up.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,21:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i also have to add that this discussion is maybe based on a cultural difference between the "old world" and the USA , a difference in the appreciation of historical artefacts<span id='postcolor'>

Ask the average American how they would feel if someone broke into the museum and trashed the Liberty Bell and the Declaration of independance.

They'd go bonkers.

And those items are less than 300 years old.

Might give them some perspective on things thousand of years older being destroyed and looted.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 13 2003,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,150)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 13 2003,20:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I'll give you a line I picked up in Canada:  Take it easy, relax.<span id='postcolor'>

yeah ... canada .... find me a fisherman's hut near one of the great lakes with some paper to write and to draw on , a PC with OFP and resistance and i'll be all set <span id='postcolor'>

Trust me, I'd like that as well.  Where I live in Vanier SOME people piss me off so much at times I'll give them a nice yelling. Ever seen a deer in the headlights of a car, you've seen what happens to people that piss me off.     It's necessary sometimes... especially when there is no one to back you up.<span id='postcolor'>

hmmm .....

i'll go in southern america then . Patagonia .....