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brgnorway

The Iraq Thread

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Well that was a better reaction than most.

A quite possible explanation, maybe we can watch the war of the USA on TV, with all the militia against the military trying to organise a coup, now that would be good TV!

A second reveloution would be very cool, i could be part of the UN intervention!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 23 2003,23:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and yes, for once Afghanistan was left to UN just like they want Iraq to be handled. and what's wrong with that?<span id='postcolor'>

It was not given the necessary resources to pull it off. The country isn't secured. There are 100x to few military personel. Nobody gives a fuck about Afghaninstan, not USA, not France and not Britain. A large militar effort is required and nobody is willing to put up.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oh boy, i'm pretty sure some right wing moron's gonna copy this and use it crazy.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Whattaryatalkingbout? I thought you were a right wing moron! biggrin.giftounge.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">why not leave UN to deal with Afghanistan since (according to critics's argument) US can't do a good job in pos-twar restructuring?<span id='postcolor'>

As I said, a larger military presence is required in Afghanistan. The UN reflects the views of the world and nobody gives a fuck about Afghanistan. sad.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and speaking of liberation, isn't US's "liberation" bad thing according to US's critics? so it's better that they live the life of not being liberated by US?

<span id='postcolor'>

I used the word "liberation" as sarcasm.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I should have mentioned that my particular response was with respect to Afghanistan, not Iraq. wink.gif<span id='postcolor'>

But according to you there is no difference, it's all part of the combined desire for self-defence and unselfish altruism of the Bush administration.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whattaryatalkingbout? I thought you were a right wing moron! <span id='postcolor'>

Hey! I'm a right wing glue-loving moron! There is a BIG difference biggrin.giftounge.gif at least i don't own a crappy plastic pistol tounge.gif

if there is not enough military support for UN, than why does it expect to be the leading role in Iraq? for what right does it make it ok for UN to be the decision maker for every nation?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But according to you there is no difference, it's all part of the combined desire for self-defence and unselfish altruism of the Bush administration.<span id='postcolor'>

eh hem! you know my stance on Iraq war and justification thereof. wink.gif AQ clearly attacked US while harbored by Taliban controlled Afghanistan, but Iraq is not AQ operated, nor has ties, nor has acted like one.(that is yet to be given proof of). so the procedure of thoughts mean that one can be precessed theough the procedure other cannot go through same procedure.

of course, your counter argument would be than why different procedure for post-war Iraq and Afghanistan is used. my answer is that as US critics say, case by case basis, (supposedly) unlike US critics who are able to apply one procedure for all situations. wink.gif

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"they could have turned UBL in instead of budging and calling US to "forget about 9-11". And if US DIDN'T go in, we wouldn't have UBL, but as US went it, there were better chance of gettinghim and dealing a serious blow to AQ's operation, which had sole objective of attacking US."

The US went in with more resources than the Taliban ever had, and they couldnt get Usama. Even if the Taliban wanted to they wouldnt be able to hand him over.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 24 2003,00:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The US went in with more resources than the Taliban ever had, and they couldnt get Usama. Even if the Taliban wanted to they wouldnt be able to hand him over.<span id='postcolor'>

cause we did not have contacts with UBL before? wink.gif except some journalists. Remember Jay Leno's joke. "CIA says they don't know where UBL is, but ABC just landed and interview with him. We should pay the ABC to find where he is, not CIA" biggrin.gif

Taliban could have at least just said to UBL, "sorry we can't house you any more, please leave." I'm sure Taliban had more resources than AQ in Afghanistan and would be able to deport him.

not to mention that Taliban and AQ were in great friendship.

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lol. I love to hear about how ENGLAND wasn't invaded during WW2. Typical Yank ignorance. They seem to think Scotland, Wales and Ireland aren't part of Britain.

Anyway, I digress.

Amazing how all our grandfathers died for democracy and freedom of speech â„¢, yet France is now to be punished for exercising its right.

You Americans make me laugh - home of the free? Pish.

I thought you would always be friends with the country that GAVE you your independence from British rule, too....

Regards,

A proud Scotsman.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ April 23 2003,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit - Toov pissed to make seroius comments. Shal reply tomorrow.<span id='postcolor'>

Good choice. smile.gif I guess we learn something new every day. tounge.gif

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<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No doubt, statistically about 1% of the U.S. population controls over 90% of the wealth.  The gap between rich and poor grows bigger every year as well.  America now has a super elite, and a shrinking middle class.  As America transitions to a service economy and ship production overseas, the death knell for the middle class is being sounded.  In 20 years, there will be the rich, whose income is now thousands of times greater than the poor, and will eventually become tens of thousands of times greater, and the poor, who have no prospects, no hope, and no power to change anything.  As money plays an ever increasing role in U.S. politics thanks to the Supreme Court's decision in Buckley v. Vallejo, the average American will become disenfranchised from the political process.  The factions representing special interests, who have the big campaign money to contribute will become the ones represented by the legislature.  When it dawns on the average american that he is no longer free, and no longer has a meaningful vote, the shit will hit the fan.

schoeler

I don,t know where you get this stuff but its not even close

to being true.If this is the case we would not more people

trying to came live in our country than any other country in the world but we do.I was in the army for 12 years til I got

shot up so bad it put me out now my income is over 136,000 a year ad I am happy to be in the middle class so you may want to check the facts.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tracy_t @ April 23 2003,18:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Amazing how all our grandfathers died for democracy and freedom of speech â„¢, yet France is now to be punished for exercising its right.<span id='postcolor'>

speaking of ignorance,  why should France's proclamation that they are against the war in Iraq actually impune Americans as a matter of free speech?  Free speech doesn't guarantee any such thing and certainly doesn't shield you from any effects of your speech.  Fine, the French believe the war is wrong so we respond by boycotting them.  How are we wrong?  Boycotting is simply another form of free speech.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LandShark-AL @ April 23 2003,20:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">schoeler

I don,t know where you get this stuff but its not even close

to being true.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.  Sounds like something you'd read out of a socialist rag. The middle class is as large as it has ever been and is growing rapidly and becoming extremely diverse. standard of living and conditions for the poor have drastically improved in this country.

Let's not get into economic forecasts anyway because things aren't too chipper on that side of the atlantic.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was in the army for 12 years til I got

shot up so bad it put me out now my income is over 136,000 a year ad I am happy to be in the middle class so you may want to check the facts.<span id='postcolor'>

good for you.  BTW, That wouldn't be middle class. Remember, the socialists believe that making more that $28,000 is considered "rich".   tounge.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 24 2003,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree. Sounds like something you'd read out of a socialist rag. The middle class is as large as it has ever been and is growing rapidly and becoming extremely diverse. standard of living and conditions for the poor have drastically improved in this country.

<span id='postcolor'>

I do think schoeler has a point though! Some effects of your poor economy (you are right - most of the economies in Europe has taken a beating too) : During the presidency of Bushy-wushy US has lost 2 000 000 jobs. The Dow Jones index has fallen 25 percent since january 2001. During february and march US lost 500 000 jobs.

In Missouri only every third light bulb is in use because of the poor economy. Colorado has cut down the weekly teaching at schools to four days instead of five. A quarter of a million children in Texas lacks health control due to lack of money.

......and you are saying the middle class is as strong as ever?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 24 2003,03:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 24 2003,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree.  Sounds like something you'd read out of a socialist rag. The middle class is as large as it has ever been and is growing rapidly and becoming extremely diverse. standard of living and conditions for the poor have drastically improved in this country.

<span id='postcolor'>

I do think schoeler has a point though! Some effects of your poor economy (you are right - most of the economies in Europe has taken a beating too) : During the presidency of Bushy-wushy US has lost 2 000 000 jobs. The Dow Jones index has fallen 25 percent since january 2001. During february and march US lost 500 000 jobs.

In Missouri only every third light bulb is in use because of the poor economy. Colorado has cut down the weekly teaching at schools to four days instead of five. A quarter of a million children in Texas lacks health control due to lack of money.

......and you are saying the middle class is as strong as ever?<span id='postcolor'>

Umm....where did you read this? Links?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 24 2003,03:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 24 2003,03:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 24 2003,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree.  Sounds like something you'd read out of a socialist rag. The middle class is as large as it has ever been and is growing rapidly and becoming extremely diverse. standard of living and conditions for the poor have drastically improved in this country.

<span id='postcolor'>

I do think schoeler has a point though! Some effects of your poor economy (you are right - most of the economies in Europe has taken a beating too) : During the presidency of Bushy-wushy US has lost 2 000 000 jobs. The Dow Jones index has fallen 25 percent since january 2001. During february and march US lost 500 000 jobs.

In Missouri only every third light bulb is in use because of the poor economy. Colorado has cut down the weekly teaching at schools to four days instead of five. A quarter of a million children in Texas lacks health control due to lack of money.

......and you are saying the middle class is as strong as ever?<span id='postcolor'>

Umm....where did you read this? Links?<span id='postcolor'>

I read it today in a norwegian newspaper called "Dagbladet" . It's in norwegian of course, but I'll present a link. The story is written by a (in Norway that is) well known reporter. She is the paper's US-correspondent.

By the way, there shouldn't be any problems finding this info at the web.

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2003/04/23/366970.html

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every third lightbulb? schools reduced to 4 days a week?

absurd.  completely false.

LOL.. Can you imagine schooldays ever being reduced with the huge budget increases in schools the last few years?

BTW, our economic number have fallen because the dot.com bubble burst.

BTW, what is health control?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 24 2003,03:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">every third lightbulb? schools reduced to 4 days a week?

absurd.  completely false.

BTW, our economic number have fallen because the dot.com bubble burst.

BTW, what is health control?<span id='postcolor'>

I'll give you one pointer, you can dig up the rest yourself smile.gif

Shortened School Week

How is this connected to Iraq. I think we should get back on topic smile.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 24 2003,03:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, our economic number have fallen because the dot.com bubble burst.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry again - but you are wrong. The dot.com bubble did burst, but the economy was on the way down before that happened. There is no way you can explain the loss of 2 000 000 jobs to the dot.com disaster.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">some forecasts predict that the economy will indeed grow more strongly in 2004, although not enough to reduce unemployment substantially.

It has grown by 2 million since Mr Bush took office.

<span id='postcolor'>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2965241.stm

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, what is health control?<span id='postcolor'>

Ok - health service or something like that. How the hell am I supposed to know what you call it over there.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">every third lightbulb? schools reduced to 4 days a week?

absurd.  completely false.

<span id='postcolor'>

I'll try to dig up a link!

Edit: here it is : </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Missouri's governor ordered every third lightbulb unscrewed in state offices to save electricity.<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/budg5_20030305.htm

How absurd is that?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 23 2003,21:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll give you one pointer, you can dig up the rest yourself smile.gif

Shortened School Week<span id='postcolor'>

hmm... you got me there!  But its quite clear this is a voluntary experiment to save a few bucks and not because its a financial last-resort as BG makes it out to be.  School budgets are getting massive funding increases in this country. Heck, I can barely pay my property taxes now its so high.

I'd like to see the real story about the "every third lightbulb" bit. I bet its simply an energy conservation plan biggrin.gif

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Didn't your mummy tell you not to bet?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Missouri's governor ordered every third lightbulb unscrewed in state offices to save electricity.

<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/budg5_20030305.htm

How absurd is that?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit: here it is : Quote  

Missouri's governor ordered every third lightbulb unscrewed in state offices to save electricity.

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/budg5_20030305.htm

How absurd is that? <span id='postcolor'>

So now you're chiding us because we are conserving energy? There's simply no winning with you people.

If you want to talk poor indicators of economy, you should check your unemployment rates.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 24 2003,03:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit: here it is : Quote  

Missouri's governor ordered every third lightbulb unscrewed in state offices to save electricity.

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/budg5_20030305.htm

How absurd is that? <span id='postcolor'>

So now you're chiding us because we are conserving energy?<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">QUESTION: How did we get into this mess?

ANSWER: Blame Sept. 11, 2001, financial scandals at big corporations, a possible war with Iraq and flat Christmas retail sales.

In other words, the economy and the stock market took a dive in 2002 and haven't climbed out of the water.

Also, the state went on a tax-cutting spree in the late 1990s but didn't cut spending accordingly. In the robust, pre-9/11 economy, revenues from sales and income taxes rose faster than Gov. John Engler and the Legislature could cut taxes.

When the economy curdled, people lost jobs and income tax revenues fell18 percent in 2002.Sales tax revenue fell 6 percent as people spent less money on everything, including big-ticket items like cars and furniture.

Meanwhile, costs for schools, prisons, Medicaid and universities climbed.

Income down, costs up. You've got a deficit.

<span id='postcolor'>

(ibid)

Do you understand what the word deficit means? Conserving energy my ass!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's simply no winning with you people.

If you want to talk poor indicators of economy, you should check your unemployment rates.

<span id='postcolor'>

And now you are lashing out on me. I never said anything about the rest of the world's economy being great! Read my first post on this subject before you say silly things! And I bet Norway's unemployment rates are a wee bit better than yours anyway.

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America is in debt at the moment, due to certain people spending fairly large amounts of money on other certain things.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LandShark-AL @ April 24 2003,02:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No doubt, statistically about 1% of the U.S. population controls over 90% of the wealth.  The gap between rich and poor grows bigger every year as well.  America now has a super elite, and a shrinking middle class.  As America transitions to a service economy and ship production overseas, the death knell for the middle class is being sounded.  In 20 years, there will be the rich, whose income is now thousands of times greater than the poor, and will eventually become tens of thousands of times greater, and the poor, who have no prospects, no hope, and no power to change anything.  As money plays an ever increasing role in U.S. politics thanks to the Supreme Court's decision in Buckley v. Vallejo, the average American will become disenfranchised from the political process.  The factions representing special interests, who have the big campaign money to contribute will become the ones represented by the legislature.  When it dawns on the average american that he is no longer free, and no longer has a meaningful vote, the shit will hit the fan.

schoeler

I don,t know where you get this stuff but its not even close

to being true.If this is the case we would not more people

trying to came live in our country than any other country in the world but we do.I was in the army for 12 years til I got

shot up so bad it put me out now my income is over 136,000 a year ad I am happy to be in the middle class so you may want to check the facts.<span id='postcolor'>

That post was based upon facts. Compare the median income as a percentage of the top income in 1950, 1970, and 2000. You'll be quite surprised I assure you. Now, compare the purchasing power of the dollar in those three eras. Again you'll be surprised. Lokk at the statistics for how many blue collar production jobs existed in the U.S. for those 3 eras as well. You'll see a sharp decline and an almost equally sharp increase in service oriented jobs since 1980.

Still don't believe me? Try to find a U.S. television manufacturing plant, a shoe or textile mill, finished steel products etc.. The list goes on and on. The job your grandfathers and fathers did for decent pay, are now being done in Mexico or Indonesia for pennies.

Read about the lavish lifestyles of what are now being termed the superrich. Compare their incomes in those three decades.

Now try and find out how responsive your Congressman is to you, or worse yet, your Senator. Check to see where and from whom they recieved their campaign donations. See if they sponsored any legislation that had a beneficial impact upon those donors. I'll just bet you are gonna get really pissed off.

Oh, by the way, read Buckley v. Valeo. Still think your government gives a fuck about you?

Buckley v. Valeo (Or the selling out of democracy).

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Here are some links to leftwing rags that explain what I was talking about. They include such comsymp organizations like the Washington Post, Cal Poly, Congress and ABC News. I'd post better articles on academic sites, but I'm not going to share my student ID number and password with the world. Want more? Google things like: Soft Money, The Income Gap, Income Disparity, Middle Class Decline etc..

Open your eyes and have a look at whats really going on in this country.

The Income Gap

http://www.house.gov/sabo/ie.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/01/18/wage.gap/

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/incomes000118.html

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v9n3/income.html

http://www.ufenet.org/press....de.html

The Decline of the Middle Class

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1988/05/art1exc.htm

http://srproj.lib.calpoly.edu/project....dle.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ecbig/declkutt.htm

Campaign Finance

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....fin.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....ro2.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....ro3.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....ro4.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....ro5.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....ro6.htm

The Truth About Soft Money

http://www.commoncause.org/laundromat/

Education can be a real bitch can't it?

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Ok, let's get back to the issue, before this thread is closed.

Those realpolitik bitches. Every time I see politicos turning their coats and commencing arsekissing, I realize that nobody in politics has ANY balls.

The world is going to hell. mad.gif

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