The Iraq Thread

[Longinius 1]

"Where I get pissed and I'll bet a bunch of others do too, is when you arrogant Europeans assume that we have bad intentions all the time, or that we are going to screw up now."

You don't have bad intentions all the time. The American people rarely have bad intentions at all. But there always is a political agenda which rarely has much to do with good or bad intentions. Its about politics and economics and that rarely mixes with the little guy. I have tried telling several Americans on this forum this again and again but been jumped upon every single time. Its like they refuse to admit that their government to has greater interests at heart than the average Iraqi citizen or the little guy in America.

"You wouldn't be typing this shit on the internet were it not for the United States. And, were it not for the united States, the Russians and a few other allies, you might all be typing in German, or, later on down the road, in Russian."

And if it wasnt for the English, French, Dutch and many others, so might you.

[Guest]

0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 23 2003,090)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you been reading the posts of some of the Americans in this topic?

It doesn't seem like it.  Many of the Americans here including myself, have been very critical about our government, its policies, our culture and our history.<span id='postcolor'>

I am pretty sure he was refering to a  a certain sub-group of people.  You have to admit though that if you look at the average persons, Americans are clearly more nationalists than Europeans. I find it most interesting, especially because America is truly na very diverse country with a non-homogenous population. Perhaps it is just because of that. To keep it togeather you have to emphasize the things you have in common.

Btw, did anybody see the arrival of the ex-POWs in Texas? Now that's disturbing. It was like a scene from the 1930's in Germany  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And, were it not for the united States, the Russians and a few other allies, you might all be typing in German, or, later on down the road, in Russian.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh yeah baby. Now I'm typing it in English instead. I feel so liberated.  

Edit: Some other developments:

U.S. Rejects UN Inspectors Despite Iraq Resolutions

US signals action against France

Why is Bush looking for another fight? He'll only end up with the sanctions not being lifted.

And why the objections against UN inspectors? How could their presence be bad? It looks very much like USA wants to plant evidence and don't want any konwledgable witnesses around...

[killagee 0]

At Last! here is a fair method to form Iraqs new Government.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3915/new_fox_reality_show.html

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 23 2003,09:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And, were it not for the united States, the Russians and a few other allies, you might all be typing in German, or, later on down the road, in Russian.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, such a simplistic view of WW2. Newsflash: Were it not for the actions of germany in WW2, people would be speaking russian in Paris and there isn't anything U.S. could have done about that.

[PitViper 0]

Actually, our mistake was getting involved with your continent.  Monroe had it right.  We should have stuck to just sinking European (or other) warships entering the western hemisphere.  but noo.. we had to come charging across the ocean twice for no reason.  Perhaps we should have just let the nazis, the communists, the fascists, the vichies and all their mindless followers decimate each other. We probably interfered with the natural course of fate by becoming involved.

[Longinius 1]

Yes, maybe you should have. That way the victor could eventually have decimated you. Great idea, PV.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 23 2003,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, maybe you should have. That way the victor could eventually have decimated you. Great idea, PV.<span id='postcolor'>

heh.. across the Atlantic?  ya right.

I'd take that chance.

[Longinius 1]

What, only Americans are brave enough to cross the Atlantic now? And missiles cant cross water?

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 23 2003,09:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps we should have just let the nazis, the communists, the fascists, the vichies and all their mindless followers decimate each other. We probably interfered with the natural course of fate by becoming involved.<span id='postcolor'>

GOOD NEWS!!! Glug Glug Glug, My pick up is thirsty!

Mmmm, "Freedom Oil".

-=Die Alive=-

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 23 2003,09:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What, only Americans are brave enough to cross the Atlantic now?<span id='postcolor'>

Nothing a large Atlantic fleet could not take care of.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And missiles cant cross water?<span id='postcolor'>

ICBM's?  They can go both ways, which is why none ever went either way

[Longinius 1]

And if a guy like Hitler or Stalin had taken all of Europe, you think they'd be afraid of launching ICBM's or a large fleet for that matter?

[tracy_t 0]

I'm quite interested in this conversation. You do know that the Germans were working on an Atomic Bomb don't you?

So, had America not intervened in the war, the UK may have been nuked, swiftly followed by the States... you Yanks could be speaking Deutsch too.

Don't think that would've been implausible at the time. The Germans could have invented ICBMs - don't you realise it was German scientists who helped the US get a man in space? That's no conspiracy theory, but documented fact.

I hear a carpet being lifted, ready for something to be swept under it.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tracy_t @ April 23 2003,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm quite interested in this conversation. You do know that the Germans were working on an Atomic Bomb don't you?<span id='postcolor'>

and so were the Americans with the help of refugee scientists.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't think that would've been implausible at the time. The Germans could have invented ICBMs - don't you realise it was German scientists who helped the US get a man in space? That's no conspiracy theory, but documented fact.<span id='postcolor'>

ICBMs were derived from the V2. However, it would have taken a while to develop them and its certainly nothing the Americans could not have developed themselves or attained through espionage.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 23 2003,16:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tracy_t @ April 23 2003,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm quite interested in this conversation. You do know that the Germans were working on an Atomic Bomb don't you?<span id='postcolor'>

and so were the Americans with the help of refugee scientists.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't think that would've been implausible at the time. The Germans could have invented ICBMs - don't you realise it was German scientists who helped the US get a man in space? That's no conspiracy theory, but documented fact.<span id='postcolor'>

ICBMs were derived from the V2.  However, it would have taken a while to develop them and its certainly nothing the Americans could not have developed themselves or attained through espionage.<span id='postcolor'>

germans had plans for intercontinental delivery systems at the end 1943

[Potatoman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 23 2003,16:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ICBMs were derived from the V2.  However, it would have taken a while to develop them and its certainly nothing the Americans could not have developed themselves or attained through espionage.<span id='postcolor'>

Sure. At the end of WW2 the Germans had missiles that could fly from Germany to Britain and the US had.. erm... nothing! And the US has really shown how good they are at spying.

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 23 2003,08:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That could also be because in recent history, it has been the U.S. that has shelled out most of the firepower. <span id='postcolor'>

And how is that a good thing, are we meant to be proud of wars? Because although everyone goes on about the reality of war and how OFP conveys it you still don't seem to get it do you.

If i start talking proudly about the British empire and how many hundreds of thousands of innocent people we killed out of pure imperialistic greed...do you see what i'm getting at here?

There are thousands of pictures and documented sources about how the French, Belgians, British, Spanish etc. mutilated and murdered people so the elite could prosper back in their countries. The Americans like to think they did everything by themselves, wake up please! Without the French you most definitely would have been mostly under British control for a hell of a lot longer. We had a hundred years war with France, and you find that most British people can relate to the French quite well, and they are the closest place to get duty free tobacco products and Drink! from. However, the Yanks, like a newborn child have no memory of the French organisation of their rebellion, and are quick to forget the statue of liberty because the French, in their sane ways, don't like the idea of a pointless war that will only benefit the elite.

Oh and for christ's sake, why do you still call the Europeans elitist? Look at Norway, it's quite socialist and there is a fairly good income equality. Now take a look at a America, it's presidents are useless against the corporations (that's pitiful) and it's schools are mainly funded by companies like coca cola. How the fuck can you call us elitist when your entire country is ran by a few billionaires in corporations!

This is why we think some Americans are not very smart, as it seems general opinion of the goverment is immediately imitated by the people.

That was a relaxing rant. And several (fairly, well they join the forces! intelligent guys contributed to it, and one of them is like myself is half American. So don't think we are just jealous or want to hate someone or as previously proved false are elitist wankers, we just see the world from a less isolated and controlled perspective.

[Jinef 2]

Oh and watch less television! It's boring and numbs the brain.

From the book 'Fast Food Nation' written by an American called Eric Schlosser i found these stats.

" The typical American child spends more time watching television than doing any other activity out of school apart from sleeping. On average they spend 21 hours a week watching TV, or one and a half months a year."

1+1/2 months watching TV! Christ just think of all the time you could go out and socialise or go clubbing etc. Or even if you wanted to play OFP instead, not much better but certainly more fun and interesting, plus you can think about stuff while doing it, TV makes that impossible.

[Guest]

I have no TV

Mine broke a couple of months ago and I havn't bothered to get a new one. Sitcoms and reality shows are not my thing. News I can get from the web and movies - well, I just watch them on my monitor (22"). I can get TV receiption through my video and PC, but I never bother.

Back to Iraq:

Surprising Strength of Iraqi Shiites

[Jinef 2]

Whenever i see the Iraqi Shiites being spelled i think how unfortunate when you transfer the spelling to English.

But i'm sure they don't really care, it's just me and my little thoughts meandering around.

[PitViper 0]

I don't watch TV but I do have a small home theater system.

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 23 2003,16:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 23 2003,09:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What, only Americans are brave enough to cross the Atlantic now?<span id='postcolor'>

Nothing a large Atlantic fleet could not take care of.<span id='postcolor'>

Nothing an even larger Atlantic fleet could not take care of.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 23 2003,15:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What, only Americans are brave enough to cross the Atlantic now? And missiles cant cross water?<span id='postcolor'>

Gimme a break, the Germans couldn't even cross the friggin English Channel. They put off operastion Sea Lion due to Russian pressure on the eastern front.

P.S. my view of the second world war is not "overly simplistic." Its just that I'm willing to acknowledge that Europe would have been doomed to German conquest if not for the United States and Russia, and doomed to Russian occupation if not for the United States and N.A.T.O. Notice the common factor here? I'll point it out. Its the United States. Yes we didn't win the war singlehandedly, and it took participation and sacrifice on the part of the whole of Europe, but prior to American entry, daylight bombing, technological advantage, lend-lease assets, and logistical power, Europe was getting its ass kicked. I'm sure your grandparents still appreciate what the Americans do for them, its just to bad that those memories will die with them.

We didn't have to get involved in europe, we could have focused on eliminating the Japanese threat and coming out of the Great Depression. No, we did it because you were "our friends."

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 23 2003,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Europe was getting its ass kicked.<span id='postcolor'>

Europe wasn't getting its ass kicked. Germany is Europe, Russia is Europe. We had an internal conflict and you got involved to promote your interest in it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">Its just that I'm willing to acknowledge that Europe would have been doomed to German conquest if not for the United States and Russia, and doomed to Russian occupation if not for the United States and N.A.T.O. <span id='postcolor'>

Yes indeed (well the Russian part is not certain). And where do you think they would go next? Who do you think they would occupy after the rest of the European countries? Where would little USA stand, all alone, outnumbered, technologically behind with limited resources? I'll tell you, you'd be the next on the list.

And so what. The Swedish occ.. I mean "liberation" of Germany during the 30 year war changed the European landscape. Are we dragging it up today?

America would not exist without Europe - but so what? How are those things relevant today?

[bn880 5]

I think this WW2 issue has been shewed upon numerous times in this forum. Doesn't help to let one person post their opinions on it and block others because it's off topic.

EDIT: And my view is exactly what Denoir summed up.

[Schoeler 0]

6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ April 23 2003,176)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 23 2003,08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That could also be because in recent history, it has been the U.S. that has shelled out most of the firepower. <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

And how is that a good thing, are we meant to be proud of wars? Because although everyone goes on about the reality of war and how OFP conveys it you still don't seem to get it do you.

If i start talking proudly about the British empire and how many hundreds of thousands of innocent people we killed out of pure imperialistic greed...do you see what i'm getting at here?

There are thousands of pictures and documented sources about how the French, Belgians, British, Spanish etc. mutilated and murdered people so the elite could prosper back in their countries. The Americans like to think they did everything by themselves, wake up please! Without the French you most definitely would have been mostly under British control for a hell of a lot longer. We had a hundred years war with France, and you find that most British people can relate to the French quite well, and they are the closest place to get duty free tobacco products and Drink! from. However, the Yanks, like a newborn child have no memory of the French organisation of their rebellion, and are quick to forget the statue of liberty because the French, in their sane ways, don't like the idea of a pointless war that will only benefit the elite.

Oh and for christ's sake, why do you still call the Europeans elitist? Look at Norway, it's quite socialist and there is a fairly good income equality. Now take a look at a America, it's presidents are useless against the corporations (that's pitiful) and it's schools are mainly funded by companies like coca cola. How the fuck can you call us elitist when your entire country is ran by a few billionaires in corporations!

This is why we think some Americans are not very smart, as it seems general opinion of the goverment is immediately imitated by the people.

That was a relaxing rant. And several (fairly, well they join the forces! intelligent guys contributed to it, and one of them is like myself is half American. So don't think we are just jealous or want to hate someone or as previously proved false are elitist wankers, we just see the world from a less isolated and controlled perspective.<span id='postcolor'>

Easy there big fella.  My point was not to glorify war, but to show that in recent wars the U.S. has put out the dominant amount of firepower, which leads one to believe by simple extension of mathematics, that the U.S. too would be the nation most likely to engage in friendly fire incidents.

I think if you check back in this thread, you'll find a post of mine that quite clearly acknowledges the role of Lafeyette and the French Fleet in America's revolution, so you can take that comment, roll it up into a ball, light it on fire and stuff it you know where.

As far as elitism, I'm referring to the smug superiority that some people don't go to a lot of trouble to conceal when they think they are the only ones who are cultured, educated or intellectual.  A lot of this criticism about America and Americans are based upon assumptions and biased media reports.  I don't go around assuming all Europeans are backwards, ignorant brainwashed TV absorbing miscreants now do I?  Yet some of you feel quite comfortable making those accusations towards the Americans present here.  I think that we deserve a little credit for making an effective argument in this forum from time to time, and those of you who are too arrogant to acknowledge that, well, I shit on you. I've had no trouble acknowledging an effective argument here when I see one, and have only attacked those who post sensationalist or uncorroborated information. I just can't sit back and not call what I find ridiculous and absurd what it is.

PS. I don't watch TV, I study law and politics. I also volunteer and work part-time. If I do watch TV, its the news, and only when I'm grabbing a bite to eat betweeen activities. TV is mostly crap and disinformation.