Back in the ussr (errr, russia)

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wasnt exactly patronizing you.  And it certainly has nothing to do with your age.<span id='postcolor'>

Then maybe you should advance a little bit beyond world history for 1st graders in your attempts to educate me on how the world really works.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It has to do with being at a point where I am sick of certain nations believing that they can dictate to the world, in spite of what other nations may want.  Yeah...they may have the military might...  but with great power comes great responsibility..and some of these people dont seem to think that they have to take responsibility for how their government stomps around the world.

And might doesnt always make right.<span id='postcolor'>

Amazing. After 6 months of defending American actions against members who only "Have divergent opinions on US policy", I cannot believe that you could say something like the above when I merely expressed my ambivelance towards Russia reinstating a symbol that has such an awful connotation to so many people, not just in America, but in Europe and in Asia also. And all I'm doing is "Disagreeing with Russian policy". I'm not dictating jack-shit to Russia; hell, I'm just some guy posting on an electronic message board, and I doubt that my government will even release a statement on the subject, since Dubya and Putin are such great pals.

As for "with great power comes great responsibility", there are few better poster children for abuse of power than the army that marched under the red star. From there on in your post seemed to degenerate into a semi-coherent rant against the powers that be (presumably the USA) so in the interest of staying ontopic I wont respond.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government.  Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them.  Think about it.<span id='postcolor'>

Like it or not, that's what Americans voted for. We have complete control over who we want in power- at the moment America prefers the Republicans. You might think that's a bad thing, but the fact is that America gets to decide who leads America, not Europe, Canada, or the UN. But anyways, this is completely offtopic.<span id='postcolor'>

I am not really aiming those comments squarley at you. You were just the catalyst for my frustration welling over.

You arent dictating, that much is true. You are however implying that by restoring the red star as a symbol of Russian military, that somehow soviet ideas are going to slip back in as well. And yes, it IS a symbol of a pretty nasty regime.

Here is a question that is off topic..but I really want an answer:

The average American generally seems rather unwilling ot trust their government. People see conspiracies to take away rights and privledges all over the place, and generally mistrust big government.

that being said, why does the average american seem to think that their government is lily white when it ocmes to the way they deal with the rest of the world?

[Guest]

Chill out Tex. You brought up the cold war. Warin only responded that there were two sides of that conflict and you don't see anybody objecting Americans using the US flag, the same flag that was used in Vietnam. It's the same flag that represented the people who nuked Japanese cities.

The big difference between a swastika and a red star (or american flag) is that the Germans lost the war and since then we have been taught how horrible the Nazis were. We have also been taught the association between the swastika and nazism. While it certianly is true that the nazism in germany was a really dark spot in history, we gladly omit that systems that exist today also have a history that isn't always that nice.

So, we have to take it at face value. When an American waves the star spangled banner, he isn't refering to the fire bombing of Dresden, the napalm bombing of Vietnamese villages, but of the actions of a country that you are proud of.

The same with the Russian red star. They do not associate it with Stalin's purges etc etc.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 29 2002,22:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wasnt exactly patronizing you. And it certainly has nothing to do with your age.<span id='postcolor'>

Then maybe you should advance a little bit beyond world history for 1st graders in your attempts to educate me on how the world really works.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't want to butt in but I do.

I don't think that's 1st grade to most in America, maybe we need another survey.

I think Denoir really captured the essence of why the star again. (Have not read entire thread.)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

fuckit, I suppose you have a point. It just makes me a little nervous, that's all I was trying to say in the beginning. Also, anyone know if there's a good OFP game going at the moment? I want to kill some commies

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the last 'real' international conflict, the Soviet Union was our ally.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean Korea? No, they weren't our ally then.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you don't see anybody objecting Americans using the US flag, the same flag that was used in Vietnam. It's the same flag that represented the people who nuked Japanese cities.<span id='postcolor'>

Here we go again............................

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government. <span id='postcolor'>

Hmmmm.

Liberal House of Commons + Liberal Senate + Liberal Supreme Court + Liberal Prime Minister = Same thing, but worse.

Do I see a theme here?

Anyways:

My stance on the re-instatement of commie era symbols: I really don't care what they do, it's their country. Yes the Red Star is a symbol of the Russian Military, the same military that was used to opress and kill so many people under the old totalitarian regime, but what can you do? If they want to parade it, let them.

So long as the government doesn't revert back to it's old form, we'll have no need to worry.

Tyler

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,05:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">fuckit, I suppose you have a point. It just makes me a little nervous, that's all I was trying to say in the beginning. Also, anyone know if there's a good OFP game going at the moment? I want to kill some commies  <span id='postcolor'>

Dont be nervous about Russia and a red star. Their economy is so shitty that they really dont have a lot of hope of regaining anything approaching the power and might of the USSR. If you want a Red to be worried about... worry about their neighbours to the south east. China is a far more worrisome place

And as an aside, if you want to read a really good book about Lend/Lease Shermans on the eastern front, pick up:

Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks: The World War II Memoirs of Hero of the Soviet Union Dmitriy Loza

There are some very amusing anecdotes and information about the use of lend lease materiel in the Soviet Union during World War II. The only drawback to the book is its pricetag..so check your local university/college library first!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Nov. 30 2002,05:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the last 'real' international conflict, the Soviet Union was our ally.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean Korea?    No, they weren't our ally then.<span id='postcolor'>

Korea doesnt count. It wasnt a 'world' war.

And just in case you may doubt it...the Liberals make me just as mental as they make you. If there isnt a SIGNIFICANT increase in military spending in the next budget, i have a feeling they will lose the next election. At least Stockwell Day isnt in charge of the only party that can give the liberals a run for their money

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Nov. 30 2002,05:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">China is a far more worrisome place <span id='postcolor'>

I'm getting a Mandarin phrasebook tommorrow

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Korea doesnt count. It wasnt a 'world' war.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, let's see who participated:

-S. Korea

-N. Korea

-China

-Russia (MIG pilots)

-U.S. of A.

-Canada

-Another 16-20 different countires under the U.N.

Sounds like world conflict to me.

You see Warin, our Military spending isn't all that low. It's just that Canada gets alot less "bang for it's buck" than other NATO countries. DND HQ are about the most inefficient group of people on the planet. $10,000 dollars for a hammer isn't far from the truth.

Tyler

[xmurderx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote

BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government. Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them. Think about it.

Like it or not, that's what Americans voted for. We have complete control over who we want in power- at the moment America prefers the Republicans. You might think that's a bad thing, but the fact is that America gets to decide who leads America, not Europe, Canada, or the UN. But anyways, this is completely offtopic.<span id='postcolor'>

ummm, there are alot of americans who can disagree with what was "voted".

one word, florida.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Nov. 30 2002,06:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You see Warin, our Military spending isn't all that low. It's just that Canada gets alot less "bang for it's buck" than other NATO countries. DND HQ are about the most inefficient group of people on the planet. $10,000 dollars for a hammer isn't far from the truth. <span id='postcolor'>

Third from the bottom. And one of the ones lower is ICeland, and they have NO military.

Our spending is low for a nation our size, as far as I am concerned. If we were some teeny little european state like say Belgium or Luxembourg, it likely wouldnt be that bad. But we're the second largest nation on the planet!

And it's also the number of General officers and their requisite staffs. I mean come on, how many Generals do we have? And how many do we really need? Cut out some of the fat and maybe you can buy the things we need to modernise our military!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 30 2002,06:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote  

BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government.  Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them.  Think about it.

Like it or not, that's what Americans voted for. We have complete control over who we want in power- at the moment America prefers the Republicans. You might think that's a bad thing, but the fact is that America gets to decide who leads America, not Europe, Canada, or the UN. But anyways, this is completely offtopic.<span id='postcolor'>

ummm, there are alot of americans who can disagree with what was "voted".

one word, florida.<span id='postcolor'>

Sheesh. Give it up. I think Bush is a moron, but for every american that thinks Bush 'stole' the Presidency with Florida, there is an American that would feel exactly the same way if it had gone to Gore. For every half baked conspiracy about why Bush won, there would be one about why Gore won.

If you dont like what happened..then get more people out to vote next time.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 30 2002,11:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ummm, there are alot of americans who can disagree with what was "voted".

one word, florida.<span id='postcolor'>

haaaaa, hahahahaha

"florida" and "voted" are two words that just don't go together.

The U.S. government is designed for there to never be a "totalitarian government". Even if the Republicans hold the house, the senate, and the presidency, you still need a 2/3rds majority to get anything important accomplished. So while they hold a few seats, technically making it a majority, it will only make it easier for them to get things done, it's not like they have free reign.

[xmurderx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Nov. 30 2002,07:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 30 2002,06:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote  

BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government.  Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them.  Think about it.

Like it or not, that's what Americans voted for. We have complete control over who we want in power- at the moment America prefers the Republicans. You might think that's a bad thing, but the fact is that America gets to decide who leads America, not Europe, Canada, or the UN. But anyways, this is completely offtopic.<span id='postcolor'>

ummm, there are alot of americans who can disagree with what was "voted".

one word, florida.<span id='postcolor'>

Sheesh. Give it up. I think Bush is a moron, but for every american that thinks Bush 'stole' the Presidency with Florida, there is an American that would feel exactly the same way if it had gone to Gore.  For every half baked conspiracy about why Bush won, there would be one about why Gore won.

If you dont like what happened..then get more people out to vote next time.<span id='postcolor'>

then get more people out to vote?!?

goodness, what a thing to say

I didnt like it but my actions alone wont turn the tide of the vote.

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 30 2002,09:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didnt like it but my actions alone wont turn the tide of the vote.<span id='postcolor'>

Who knows?

The last election in the U.S turned out to hang on a few hundred votes. Maybe YOUR vote is the vote that tips the scale, eh? That´s how democracy works.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 30 2002,07:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 30 2002,11:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ummm, there are alot of americans who can disagree with what was "voted".

one word, florida.<span id='postcolor'>

haaaaa, hahahahaha

"florida" and "voted" are two words that just don't go together.

The U.S. government is designed for there to never be a "totalitarian government".  Even if the Republicans hold the house, the senate, and the presidency, you still need a 2/3rds majority to get anything important accomplished.  So while they hold a few seats, technically making it a majority, it will only make it easier for them to get things done, it's not like they have free reign.<span id='postcolor'>

The Germans had a very similar system between 1919 and 1933

[NurEinMensch 0]

And then we had the "Reichtagsbrand", an act of evil international terror... er... communism, but our government took precautions...

Everyone knows what happend next.

[xmurderx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gollum1 @ Nov. 30 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 30 2002,09:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didnt like it but my actions alone wont turn the tide of the vote.<span id='postcolor'>

Who knows?

The last election in the U.S turned out to hang on a few hundred votes. Maybe YOUR vote is the vote that tips the scale, eh? That´s how democracy works.<span id='postcolor'>

maybe it will

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Nov. 30 2002,17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Germans had a very similar system between 1919 and 1933 <span id='postcolor'>

Well the Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on.

In the U.S. there's always at least two voices.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 30 2002,18:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Nov. 30 2002,17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Germans had a very similar system between 1919 and 1933 <span id='postcolor'>

Well the Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on.

In the U.S. there's always at least two voices.<span id='postcolor'>

Or are there?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government. Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them. Think about it.

<span id='postcolor'>

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well the Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on.<span id='postcolor'>

It wasn't as simple as that. If read up on how Hitler got into power, you will find he was a very smart, and very calculating person.

As a matter of fact, the Nazi party received very little votes in the German elections. Hitler obtained power by default, with the death of Hindenburg, and the use of the Enabling act.

It wasn't that the German people were stupid, or swooned. A large majority did not vote for Hitler.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the U.S. there's always at least two voices<span id='postcolor'>

So did the German political system. A combination of factors and luck, mean't that one cunning person, with the threat of force behind him, managed to wrangle himself into power, and outlaw all other political parties.

Hitler was a brilliant man in some ways, a good deal of luck helped him, but the bastard could sell ice to Eskimo's.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well the Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on.

In the U.S. there's always at least two voices. <span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but this is not acceptable !

There was a german resistance (ever heard of White Rose or Stauffenberg ?)! There were people opposing Hitler. Most of them were killed ! People that didnt send their kids to HJ faced heavy consequences !

Even within the german Wehrmacht a lot of officers opposed Hitler and were sent to death for it.

Almost all members of opposition were deported or killed later on within camps like Ausschwitz. So what you write here is a slap into the face of the generation that lost their grandpa´s cause they were actually opposing the Nazi regime. If you dont know better, you´d better shut up.

[Badgerboy 0]

The problem is Balschoiw, that a lot of people have never studied the reasons he got into power. Most people (Mostly non-european) think that he was voted in by the German people.

Can't really blame them, different countries probably have different ways of teaching history.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 30 2002,23:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well the Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on.

In the U.S. there's always at least two voices.<span id='postcolor'>

*sigh*

Ok, I'll rephrase this for the people who nitpick.

"MOST Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on."

EDIT - I think I should add this just so it doesn't look like I'm some racist yank. I don't think that Germans are stupid or gullable or anything like that. But the way they were swept off their feet by Hitler tells me that their system didn't do too much good.

[Warin 0]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 01 2002,008)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 30 2002,23:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well the Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on.

In the U.S. there's always at least two voices.<span id='postcolor'>

*sigh*

Ok, I'll rephrase this for the people who nitpick.

"MOST Germans were stupid enough to be swooned by one person instead of thinking logically about what was going on."

EDIT - I think I should add this just so it doesn't look like I'm some racist yank.  I don't think that Germans are stupid or gullable or anything like that.  But the way they were swept off their feet by Hitler tells me that their system didn't do too much good.<span id='postcolor'>

Please study some history.

Very few Germans were stupid or gullible.

Do some reading on the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, and some background into German culture.  It makes unserstanding how a whack job like Hitler managed to get so much support a hell of a lot easier.