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Laws of War DLC Feedback

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So far my first feelings are good. 

 

First I think it's admirable that BI took this approach for a DLC. Humanitarian work and war conventions are something that are easily forgotten in military simulation and gaming. So big kudos to BI. Specially to the teams that worked in the "Orange" DLC. 

 

All the new props, uniforms and vehicles are really good. They will certainly enhance my modern warfare mil-sim missions, be it in conventional scenarios, guerrilla warfare or the ones were I add a more humanitarian approach (in my milsim group we already do a good amount of mine-cleaning and even some blue helmet convoy escorts). 

 

The leaflet option is really interesting to insert intel into the missions, so great work on that front too. 

 

On the suggestions front, I think it would have been interesting a rescue variant of the helicopter, it could be achieved by simply adding some of the van-ambulance props like a couple beds in the interior, and maybe even animating the sliding door (I know it can be triggered with scripts, but a straight menu option would make it simpler, besides a FFV pos in that door can be used to assist the pilot when landing in tight spaces). Or import some stuff from the ToH :f:

 

One of the stretchers could be used as a "vehicle" were injured can lay on, and someone can move around just walking with it, and be airlifted (slinged) by a helicopter. 

 

Seeing the mine dispenser, why no mine clearing line charge?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine-clearing_line_charge

 

And as said before, an all white variant and a olive drab one for the new tents would be interesting. 

 

Finally, in this kind of DLC I'd have liked an advanced first-aid and advanced de-mine option. Although I know that ACE has that covered, a vanilla approach would have been nice. 

The "mine clearing line" you are talking about is military "grade", yes it would be great to have this as tool for "nato" but for the DLC faction IDAP this would be "to expensive" looking at it from the IDAP point of view ;)

 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

 

 

 

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No advance medical system, with all the new props from medical emergency:down:

 

The mine detector should be lower to 1-2 meter top range, its only a metal detector / ultrasonic. The engineer should be more slow tracking the ground for mines and not running toward it and then disarming it.

 

Lack of green and red flags for id a path corridor and visually mines should be underground not visible. Creation of false-positive mines (coins, junk and so on...) could be interesting wasting time detecting non EOD during a fire fight. Its the engineer job to make them visible for others players after using the mine detector and ID it manually.

 

Ref: Kajaki film

Edited by five_seven5-7
Movie reference
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13 minutes ago, five_seven5-7 said:

Lack of green and red flags for id a path corridor

 

Flags for marking the mine field and cleared areas/paths which can be equipped and placed by the engineer in-game would be fantastic

 

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I guess I would like to say something about that DLC as well...

I haven't tested the campaign yet, but a few things that I observed. Some people already mentioned some of the points, but I would like to state my opinions in full.

  • The showcase, as many people already said, is confusing. Half of the time you spent running around in VR rooms without any idea what to do. For example, what about the minefiled ? Are we supposed to clear it ? What about things like the enemy area (second area), where you shoot all the bad guys, and it still does not proceed ? A bit more information what to do would go a long way.
  • The DLC adds some medical equipment, but there is still no advance in the medical system. You still can't drag or carry wounded, there's still no dedicated medevac vehicles except the pod for the Taru. 
  • You concentrate on mine removal, but you don't even include an EOD suit.
  • Most of the assets (not all, but a very large part) is again just retextures of existing content. The result is that in this civilian-biased DLC, we still only get to interact with men in shorts. Still no females. I know, a lot of people will now again say "We don't need females", but this is just simply wrong. It's IMHO totally immersion breaking if the only civilian population you can see is men in shorts. It's just totally unrealistic.
  • My biggest gripe, though, is that there is still no way except extensive scripting to populate towns. There used to be ALICE and SILVIE in Arma 2, the modules that create civilian cars and populace, and while they had their problems, they added LIFE to the towns. Right now, you have such great towns as Kavala and Gerogetown, but they are just lifeless, dead husks of towns without any sign of a living being. Of course, you can spawn cars and civilians by script, but the amount of AI computations simple civilians need will make the already heavily loaded multiplayer mode still more loaded to a point where it becomes unplayable.
    A good implementation for civilain AI in towns would have to come from within the engine, similar maybe to the way animals work (although I know they are not shared over network).
    In any case, here you have a civilian DLC that strongly neglects the civilian side of things. At the very least, why not bring back the civilian site module back that we had in Alpha ?

I realize resources for you are limited, and the Amsterdam team probably did what they could. I just don't understand the focus that you put in your work. What cracked me up was the fact that dropping leaflets from the sky was honestly heralded as a new feature.

Overall, I am disappointed with the DLC. Don't get me wrong, I still like it to some extend, but like with APEX, I think that there could have been more, or rather, other things, and I sometimes just don't understand why you do some things and totally ignore others. The lack of civilian interaction (which was a great and much praised feature of Arma 2) is a good example.

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2 minutes ago, Varanon said:

there's still no dedicated medevac vehicles except the pod for the Taru. 

 

You're forgetting the existing medical trucks, medevac does not only mean evacuation by helicopter.

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So, I've been messing around with the Van for while and it's pretty cool that you can load quads in the cargo version.

But what I'd like to see is, loading AmmoCrates etc. in the Van and maybe even in other Vehicles like the Blackfish (Cargo Version) etc.

This way you could make actual convoy's with actual supplies in there. The IDAP would actually be able to transport their Supplies and the Military their Weapons/Ammunition.

 

This is what would make this DLC and the gameplay even better in my opinion.

It might be a bit late to add such a feature, but I still hope to see this until the official realease on stable branch.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, GBee2 said:

 

You're forgetting the existing medical trucks, medevac does not only mean evacuation by helicopter.


I know. The medical trucks are basically transport with a few wooden beds, no real medevac. Look at what was in Arma 2, dedicated APCs, dedicated trucks, dedicated cars, etc. Something that actually looks like a flying/driving/tracked ambulance

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A few points that I noticed:

  • I wish the doors of the van could be opened from the outside. I might be compulsive about that, but I hate entering a vehicle with closed door, and since they CAN be operated, why not from the outside?
  • I like the van.
  • Would have been nice to see a Hazmat suit in this. No viral outbreak without one.
  • As Varanon said, I am very disappointed by the lack of actual civilians beyond the faction workers. Would have been a good opportunity to ramp up the civilians. Right now all the civilians look like tourists, none of them looks in any way like the belong on Altis or Tanoa.
  • The lack of ALICE and SILVIE is also a disappointment, I would have really liked to see them back.

Bottom line, a civilian focused DLC would have greatly benefited from more civilian assets.

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Thanks @Mocane for your answer but what I thought I saw was a projection screen. If that's the rugged screening the pic, that's a shame as need one for low tech briefings.

 

Thanks though!

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The Alice module was great, I hoped it would return in all these years that passed. Tbh I don't understand why they didn't at least add some variation of civ outfits, 95% of civ clothes are a different color of shorts,sandals and polo shirt(and the extra outfit with it's color variation from Apex).This ain't Sims, but having at least 4-5 different civ outfit choices would have been great.

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10 minutes ago, krycek said:

The Alice module was great, I hoped it would return in all these years that passed. Tbh I don't understand why they didn't at least add some variation of civ outfits, 95% of civ clothes are a different color of shorts,sandals and polo shirt(and the extra outfit with it's color variation from Apex).This ain't Sims, but having at least 4-5 different civ outfit choices would have been great.

 

Idk looks like there's lots of variety for civilians to me:

XGGEYkg.jpg

 

And that's just unique models. I'm not even including all the texture variants.

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So basically like I said,most are shorts and you also put unique variants.I meant 4-5 outfits that civvies could wear in general. How many civs with Nikos or hunter outfit you can have? A general outfit its the one that came with Apex,that one with it's different colours could be used a bit more than role or unique outfits before turning into attack of the clones.

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41 minutes ago, Night515 said:

Idk looks like there's lots of variety for civilians to me:

 

To begin with, they are all male. I am sure in 2035 humanity will still use the old fashion way for reproduction, and that requires women.

There are no typical greek outfits (or pacific islanders, for the matter). They're all generic. Syndikat could be any African faction as well.

No suit-and-tie, no police officer, no priest, nothing that elevates above either tourist or hobo.

Most of the civilian assets are really just FIA guys without military gear.

 

And this is from the main game AND the expansion. So there are no typical tropic islanders either.

 

So we have:

  • No females. They weren't really usable as player characters in Arma 2, but at least they were there
  • Very little variety. Mostly guys in shorts and flip-flops, or just too much dirt to pass as civilians.
  • Nothing region-specific/typical.
  • No more civilian interaction. It might not be extremely useful to ask for the weather report or where you are, but the civilian interaction in Arma 2 at least made them appear alive
  • No ALICE and SILVIE. In Arma 2 you had two modules with with you could easily make a world look inhabited, have lights in houses, smoke on chimneys, cars driving around town and between towns, it made everything look so much more real. Now, you will either have to manually place all of them, or resort to custom scripting. A lot of the information required for these modules to be ported has been removed from the Arma 3 maps. ALICE and SILVIE even had people talk to each other on the streets when they met. It was an all-out great addition to the game. Poof, gone.
  • The SITE modules that existed prior to release have been removed as well.
  • The campaign(s) clearly showed the lack of civilian interaction. I read a review of a former USMC about Arma 2 who praised the fact that civilians could talk and be interacted with.

I am not a Lifer, I am a Coop player, but I am quite sure that both Lifers and Coop players will agree that more Civilian assets would be a very welcome addition to the game. This DLC would have been a good opportunity to reinforce the civilian faction, but it was completely missed. I feel that is a downer. I remember when Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising came out, I thought it was such a cop-out to say "all civilians have been evacuated", and yet, Arma 3 feels as lifeless as possible. Altis has millions of houses with nothing in them; I would have preferred less enterable houses with actual interiors like in Arma 2. In every aspect, Arma 2 looked more alive than Arma 3. 

 

Now, yeah, I know there are mods that add civilian stuff. I happen to be part of CUP, and TBH I had considered making some new civilian assets just for variety, but then without SILVIE and ALICE they're probably never going to get used. But there is a point in having that kind of stuff in Vanilla. 

 

I don't suppose that this feedback will be heeded, because there is just too little time until release to change anything about it, and I would guess that data lock already occurred. I have little hope that any of it will be considered for post-release, but if so, ALICE and SILVIE along with females will be the top of my list. But the answer will probably be "not enough resources" :(

 

Well I guess I am starting to weer off-topic here. I do however consider this feedback to be relevant to a civilian themed DLC.

 

 

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1 hour ago, krycek said:

So basically like I said,most are shorts and you also put unique variants.I meant 4-5 outfits that civvies could wear in general. How many civs with Nikos or hunter outfit you can have? A general outfit its the one that came with Apex,that one with it's different colours could be used a bit more than role or unique outfits before turning into attack of the clones.

7 skins with shorts and ~15 with regular pants. I don't know what you don't like :/
Especially, with all of these customizations like hats and new bags etc. And I'm not mentioning that almost all of the uniforms have the other textures.

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40 minutes ago, Alwarren said:

 

To begin with, they are all male. I am sure in 2035 humanity will still use the old fashion way for reproduction, and that requires women.

There are no typical greek outfits (or pacific islanders, for the matter). They're all generic. Syndikat could be any African faction as well.

No suit-and-tie, no police officer, no priest, nothing that elevates above either tourist or hobo.

Most of the civilian assets are really just FIA guys without military gear.

 

And this is from the main game AND the expansion. So there are no typical tropic islanders either.

 

So we have:

  • No females. They weren't really usable as player characters in Arma 2, but at least they were there

You're so focused on females. BI already said it won't happen in A3, maybe in A4 if it comes out. And they're not the thing that we need that much. When I first saw women in A2 I was like "Oh, cool, it's a woman! Well, whatever, I have to fight". In A3 it will look the same if you're not playing LIFE mode. You will see her and then forget about her.
Personally, I do like an idea with women, but it's not necessary, completely not. Some of the players won't even use them, only if they would like to play as them. 

 

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So now guys, you don't really see how much of a content is in this DLC. Look, I just counted all of the decorative objects, it's  218! And with them you can create maaany cool things, at least I've already started to. I'm not counting the gear, vehicles, etc. Many retextures to the old vehs and new vehicles with a load of customizations! Damn, I was so happy to explore this stuff, I've spent nearly 5 hours to do it, not even touching the campaign! BI did so good work, although some of the things may be added. Like various textures for the new helmet, so we can use it not only in a humanitarian, new enhanced press helmet could be a police helmet as well! See, you can make lots of things with it! Would love to see a police van retexture! If we have Tanoan gendarmerie, why can't we have a complete greek police, with their own offroads and other things (we already have vest, headgear and uniforms!)

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i don't think we will ever see 'proper' behaving civilians in this game, there's too many variables in behaviour required to pull it off convincingly ala GTA just my humble opinion, civilians always felt awkward in Arma for me and mostly take away from the experience... to be fair on BI I've  just come back to Arma after a good year off and been playing a few different games some good most bad... and apart from big titles like GTA many games don't offer much variety either if at all, Infact many games that cost much more seem to have far less assets than Arma... many just seem copy and paste everything,

 

So at the end of the day I can't complain, I've got a few thousand hours entertainment for a little under $70, best bang for buck I've ever spent on entertainment for sure, personally I'd love to see them just make unique and different faction packs and maps... And proper war torn maps with nearly everything in ruins, that could help explain away those missing civilians, i always thought Zargabad was a perfect sized map for Arma, maybe if it had a bit more width, also Shapur is a great little map, I'm sure I've made over 100 missions on that map.... I would spend good money on more military stuff like that for the military sandbox.

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Just finished the campaign.

 

Truth told, from a pure singleplayer perspective (and to me), the Laws of War campaign is pretty much what I would have expected Apex to be. That pure multiplayer campaign was a huge disappointment to me. Playing it alone simply wasn't a very fun experience, combined with all that multiplayer fuzz around it (respawn timer, etc). Yeah it comes with some cool assets, but heck, I don't want to create my own shitty missions all the time. Laws of War fulfills my current need for more A3 singleplayer content. Not sure yet how replayable it is, especially once you've walked through all the mine-clicking, and with the much slower pacing, but the overall quality is really good.

 

Really makes me wish for at least one more campaign or something. I guess tanks DLC will be more in line with Jets and Helicopters again (new vehicles, 1 showcase mission), so all other hope lies on the Tac-Ops scenarios.

 

PS:

 

I like how CSAT actually wasn't involved and main dude dropping the hint of them rather staying in the background. This helps to make them a tad less evil again, putting blame on Miller and his black-ops goons.

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5 hours ago, krycek said:

So basically like I said,most are shorts and you also put unique variants.I meant 4-5 outfits that civvies could wear in general. How many civs with Nikos or hunter outfit you can have? A general outfit its the one that came with Apex,that one with it's different colours could be used a bit more than role or unique outfits before turning into attack of the clones.

A lack of clothes, or a lack of imagination? :)

And it's just a one variation per specific skin5s1hw4gEXvg.jpg

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3 hours ago, Igor Nikolaev said:

A lack of clothes, or a lack of imagination? :)
And it's just a one variation per specific skin

I don't think you read what I wrote or have problems understanding, different textures\colors or adding a hat it's not equal to a different outfit, it's still the same damn shorts and sandals. Just as if you put a tie and a fancy hat on a hobo it doesn't mean he'll enter an office building. Different outfit means maybe a pair of jeans, sweaters, cargo pants, shirts, coats maybe a suit for bodyguards or for a very important parrot (vip).

 

You can even use them as pmcs/operators or as a cover into a city\town and so on, not only as background scenery. On some of the current outfits the poor bastards are even barefoot.
With the exception of the services/first responders uniforms how many are retextured guerrilla uniforms,the shorts outfit or the hobo one from that rainbow pic you made?

I mean we're even on the same page? Because I even mentioned in an earlier post just because you have blue and brown sandals or 2762 different colors of the same outfit it doesn't mean it's an entirely different outfit.


I couldn't care less about the lifers but it doesn't mean all of us make missions only as standard blufor vs opfor. I have quite a few missions with pmcs(with the help of mods like CUP) or agents/operators undercover,insurgency missions and together with the Trident module you can make some amazing shit(you know,you just have to use that imagination). The diversity in default content would have helped a lot in these type of scenarios.

As a simple example of what can you do with a civ faction right now I'm working on a mission that involves multiple assassins trying to kill an important tanoan official.

He arrives in Georgetown with his security detail and 3 suvs(arriving mostly on the mood of AI) while gendarmerie are securing the area while a crowd of citizens gather to meet him.Two of the assassins are also police, playing with the faction system and the Trident module I mentioned earlier you can create a chaotic firefight,pmcs firing on police and civies, army arrives and you get the picture.

 

Also perhaps I didn't saw them since you also mention new different vehicles, where are they besides the new (quite ok-ish) multi-role van?

I hope you don't consider retextures again as new vehicles. Some vehicles are indeed more fit for retextures like you mentioned a police variant for the van, but there is also a lack of variety in civ assets in general.

It's understandable that offroads and suvs are rarer just like real life, but I had to pretend that by 2035 everyone is rolling Elon Musk style and he became corporate overlord of the planet so everyone is using that hatchback electric car. If I want more civ assets the alternatives are those life packs with 99% stolen content and dubious quality that look so out of place in A3. Or using CUP again(those guys bless their brains already saved the day a few thousands times with A2 content).

 

Yeah the props are good and this dlc is quite fine with the content they made, but it just needed to be more beefier when we found out that BI is developing the civ side again. A raise in price wouldn't had mattered since probably most of us gladly payed for Apex just as we gladly payed for expansions in the past.

This dlc stuff like "here, take a vehicle or two" it really makes you crave for more.

 

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47 minutes ago, krycek said:

I don't think you read what I wrote or have problems understanding

 

no need to be rude.

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